another gun question....

[biguglyman]

My step-daughter is looking to purchase her first pistol. She is rather small with delicate (she's in med school becoming a doctor) hands. She wants to be able to cc comfortably but doesn't have a lot of disposable income. I was thinking one of the smaller, hammer-less revolvers. Any suggestions appreciated.

[PAVALKER]

Small light revolver is a good choice for a woman, but I'd let her decide about the hammer or hammer less.    Something to consider is where she will carry, if she has children etc.  There was a woman that was recently shot by her toddler with her gun from her purse in Walmart.  Purse carry should be carefully considered with children IMO.

[Patrick]

I see you are from western NY. I'll assume your step-daughter is also in NY and applying for a permit. SO, she is not buying this gun for self-defense is she. She is about to take up target shooting. Most folks in NY first buy a .22 for target shooting/plinking. As judges in NY become more liberal as the years go by it gets harder to get a permit. I'd recommend talking to some of the people 'in the know' locally.

I'm a big caliber guy, but, for close quarter work I have no problem with the lowly .22. I think the .22 can be pretty snotty at close range. I think its noisey enough to get anyones attention out of a snubbie and I'd rather not get hit with one.

[solo1]

I've always recommended a lighter weight .38 special revolver with exposed hammer, generally a 'snubbie'.  Two ladies have taken my advice and they are happy with them. Charter Arms makes a nice one and the prices are reasonable. Charter Arms also makes them in .22 caliber but not recommended for CC.

 I have two Charter Arms, a .44 Bull Dog (new) and a .40 Pitbull. Both are reliable, both have a nice single action trigger ( double action is heavy tho).  Neither would be a good choice for a first shooter though.

My .02

[Pappy!]

I did the same thing for my step daughter. She is tiny as well (size 1).
The first thing we did was head into a gun shop to see what she could comfortably hold in her hand. Secondly we had to determine if she could comfortably pull the trigger on a hammerless or rooster the hammer on an exposed hammer gun. Same with the small semi-autos. She will have to be comfortable and able to do these things with any gun she chooses.
Do the both of you a favor and do these things before you settle on any gun that may be recommended here or that you think she ought to be able to use.

[Jess from VA]

Small revolver is always best for a newbie, but snubbies are always hard to be good/accurate with (and require practice).

I like shrouded hammers for carry.  They don't snag, but the hammer can be cocked for an accurate smooth trigger pull if you have the time.

A .22 is not a great defensive round, but a light recoil/kicking .22 or .32 revolver is still a very decent choice for a small gal with limited experience.  Ammo is cheap, it is not punishing to shoot, so they like it better, and practice more, and confidence builds quickly, and  they will almost certainly be better shots than with a .38.  An accurate hit or two with a .22, beats no hits at all with a .38. If guns have to be listed for a NY carry permit application, a .22 on the application may make if more likely for approval (guessing).

People who carry a firearm in a purse must develop a whole new mind set for their purse; it cannot be left anywhere at anytime for any reason.  

And if a .22 IS the choice, there are a lot of nice small .22 autos available.  They do require three times the initial training a revolver does. (How to operate and how to clear jams)

For instance, the discontinued Smith & Wesson, Sportsman Model 2213 stainless steel

[Varmintmist]

I've always recommended a lighter weight .38 special revolver with exposed hammer, generally a 'snubbie'. 
My .02

What he said.

I would NOT go with a titanium though. Snubbies bark enough as it is, and for a newbie, the little extra weight will help.
Load it with regular 38, 125gr ammunition.

I am not a big Taurus fan, but they made the mod 85 that was a very adequate revolver. It shot better than it had a right to, was a good price, and not real heavy.
The wife has a SP 101 in 357, however you can shoot 38's out of it. http://www.ruger.com/products/sp101/models.html Only thing is that when you switch from 38 to 357, clean the cylinders. The 38 case is exactly the same except for length. Firing 38's will leave residue in the cylinders and if you fire 357's, they will stick.
There are still Detective Specials to be had used also.

[PAVALKER]

Also, revolvers can be had in most any caliber.  Taurus makes a 905 in 9mm and it is a small snubbie and not that bad to shoot.  I have one and also have a ported 45 Revolver snubbie and it isn't that bad to shoot either oddly enough.  And with a revolver, there is no limp wristing issues as there might be with some semis.

[Master Blaster]

Would stay away from the feather weights, even a 38 has punishing recoil in these that would be a detriment for small and delicate. 

[Lil D]

Feel free to give me a call. The snubby revolvers are a great starting point, but, snappy.  Lots of less punishing 380s. It will take her some time to get a permit.

Locally, beikerk's, has a great selection and I've found they.are good with women. Some shops can be pretty condescending.

Training is important. Check out Rochester personal defense. I've trained with them and am a NRA instructor for basic pistol.

Good luck with the investigation! 

[BnB Tom]

  There are some advantages to a .38 revolver.
Besides being small, she can start out with 'light' loads to get used to the weapon then move up to +P for self defense.
And, generally speaking, she will never have to recover from a jamb.
Most gun ranges offer rentals.  A good place for her to try different guns and choose the one that is right for her. 

[czuch]

I hate to be a wet blanket here but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
If she wants to carry and has never before carried, or had a reason to carry, I reccomend pepper spray. Reasons are this, if ya spray some asshat, you probably wont get arrested, need a lawyer, go to court, maybe lose. All you need to do is carve a hole to get away from the situation.
That way she can ease into the responsibility with out the consequences.
The crevice of accountability is most severe in a carry application.
Kinda like the keeping a baby doll around for a week and respond to the cries they have programmed.
Part of the sex ed class. donchaknow.
Other than that,.22.

[Patrick]

When it comes right down to it, I agree with Czuch.

We very seldom 'carry' even though we're licensed in this state, but, always have 'spray' with me as does JoAnn. We keep it in our vehicles and on our key chains. That said, spray is illegal in this state[ just another stupid NY law]. But, I too think it would be much easier to get your self quietly away from a situation.

[flcjr]

I am a huge ruger lcr fan. I have it in 357 found it used very reasonable. someone bought for there wife and well 357 was a bit much in that small package for a new shooter. they can be had in 357,38,22mag and 22lr.  They can be had with and without exposed hammer now.

[Jess from VA]

Another point.

A laser sight on a small, light, short bbl carry piece may help a rookie (or anyone) do a better job of hitting what they are aiming at (and missing innocents).  Especially at nigh time when the chances of bad mojo increases, and the ability to see/use crummy fixed sights may be nearly impossible.  Red ones are not much use in outdoor broad daylight, but they should work well in any indoor lit building at short defensive distances.

While the practice of verbally commanding someone that you will shoot them if they keep coming at you (while extending your piece) may be debatable, there can be little doubt that a crack impaired felon would more quickly be disabused of his bad intentions with a laser bouncing on his face or chest (whereas he may not even see the tiny piece in your raised arms in a dark parking lot). 

They are also an excellent training device, as anyone can plainly see their short bbl carry piece bouncing or circling around the bullseye at the range, and the tendency to jerk double action revolver triggers side-to-side (stringing shots horizontally on target), or anticipating sharp recoil by pushing the bbl forward and down (stringing shots vertically on the target).  Of course lasers should be co-witnessed with any iron sights, when they can be seen. 

I had never owned a laser of any kind and was/remain somewhat against them on any full size target sighted handgun or rifle (with or without optics), until I picked up an airweight scandium frame Smith from a nice young policeman who carried it as backup before deciding to go with a mini Glock that took the same mags as his duty Glock.  It only took me a few minutes to decide this was a nice setup indeed for awaking in the night time to strange noises in a dark house where you do not want to go turning on any lights at all with possible intruders in the house.  (Though house defense guns are better to be full sized firearms, and not small carry pieces.)

Also, a revolver laser grip will not render your gun leather/holster useless, but it will do so for your small auto with a laser added to your trigger guard or on the rail under the bbl (though another holster can be found to accommodate an added laser).

If you are shopping used for a face-to-face, no-paperwork cash sale from another good citizen, carry pieces can be readily found listed with small lasers already installed, often with the correct pocket or belt (or both) holster as part of the deal. 

Like this:
 http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIHrErRUa2wAPwT7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTBzNjFrOTlrBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDBGdwb3MDMjg-?p=smith+360+with+crimson+trace&vid=74e45c05960f613a0bd6e93f8f79f447&l=00%3A37&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DVN.607993577969156188%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DrWfPpnlWnLo&tit=swmp40c&c=27&sigr=11a2p3t41&sigt=107smna6r&age=0&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av%2Cm%3Asa&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&hsimp=yhs-001&hspart=mozilla&tt=b

[Serk]

I got a Desert Eagle .44 Magnum for my wife...

...best trade I ever made...

 

[hubcapsc]

When Carolyn and I were shooting rented guns down at the range,
she got numerous jams on a 45 xd...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limp_wristing

Neither one of us were all that happy pulling the slide back.

We like revolvers 

-Mike

[john]

BEST GUN FOR A WOMAN - VINCE'S WORTHWHILE WEBSITE


www.vincelewis.net/womansgun.html

A "hammerless" revolver still has the hammer that fires the bullet, but it is shrouded within the gun. Internal ... Like all of these small revolvers, ...

[Varmintmist]

That article is so full of assumptions and some outright BS that it is barely readable.

1, my wife likes her 1911 and has carried it.

2, a 38spl is NOT more powerful than a 9mm. It is adequate though. I doubt you will find a "38 Smith and Wesson" that a 38 spl can be more powerful than. And you wont find one in a modern firearm. He also reccomends a 32 H&R....

3, most of what he is reccomending are airweights. I doubt if he ever taught a lady how to shoot.

4, not accurate at 15 yards? I guess he never fired one or, he cant shoot, or expects bughole groups.

5, Sights are not needed?? Ok, who says that every gunfight will be at 3 feet? Where is that rule? I think there was just a article about a horse cop in Austin who engaged a bad guy at over a hundred yards with a service 9mm pistol.  A little luck? Sure. Cut the distance in half or even by 3/4's and practice.

6, his assumptions on "stopping power" are pretty amazing and typical of anyone who has watched a lot of Miami Vice reruns.

[Gavin_Sons]

I hate to be a wet blanket here but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
If she wants to carry and has never before carried, or had a reason to carry, I reccomend pepper spray. Reasons are this, if ya spray some asshat, you probably wont get arrested, need a lawyer, go to court, maybe lose. All you need to do is carve a hole to get away from the situation.
That way she can ease into the responsibility with out the consequences.
The crevice of accountability is most severe in a carry application.
Kinda like the keeping a baby doll around for a week and respond to the cries they have programmed.
Part of the sex ed class. donchaknow.
Other than that,.22.

I completly disagree with this. What happens when someone is coming after her and the spray doesn't stop them. A bullet fired from a gun to their chest or head will atleast slow them if not stop them completly. We dont carry to protect ourselves because we are afraid of a lawsuit. If it comes down to it and I have to use my weapon the last thing im worried about is getting sued or arrested. All I know is im going home to my family. So if your comfortable carrying pepper spray to save your life good for you, I dont trust anything but a speeding bullet to the face to save mine.

[fudgie]

I agree with gavin. If every body that wanted to carry, carried pepper spray then why do we need guns? 

[Gavin_Sons]

I'm not going to take pepper spray to a gun fight.    I have seen guys get sprayed and not even phase them. Have seen guys get shot with tasers and they pulled them out. But I have yet to see someone get shot reach in their chest and pull the bullet out then procede to beat your ass.

[Master Blaster]

A better option than pepper spray is a can of wasp and hornet spray.  Gots better range too.

[Jess from VA]

I do think that pepper, for the non-gun owner, user, aficionado is better than a sharp stick or umbrella or purse with a brick in it.

There are plenty of people (wives, daughters and sons) who have no training or experience with guns, and maybe don't want any, or are afraid of them, that could benefit greatly from this less than lethal alternative.

Pepper is also not a bad idea where firearm carry is specifically verboten.  Pepper is likely also verboten in such places, but if you are caught with it, you will likely only be wrist-slapped, not booked into custody for a firearm.  

Especially, specifically, this pyrotechnic delivery pepper (unless they are willing to carry a great big jug of bear spray).  On the other hand, those little key chain sprays are a waste of time and more likely to incapacitate the user than the perp.

http://www.pepperblaster.com/

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Apepper%20blaster%202

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=l1wAAGexpYY	powered by Aeva

And this stuff is sealed with a long shelf like, unlike regular sprays, which cannot be trusted to work after many months (and if you test them, you have used up a third of your juice).



    

[Raider]

I saw a handful of recs for the Charter Arms alloy revolvers.  They aren't bad, but their recoil is abusive.  Seriously.  My sister owns one and I shoot with her regularly.

My wife has a S&W 686 with a 2.5 inch barrel.  It's mildly larger in every measure than the Charter, but both ladies can shoot the Smith all day long.  Both also have a hard time even getting through a single box with the Charter.

I consider practice a very important part of carrying and just want to be sure that this is taken into account.  If there's any opportunity for her to shoot a very light gun before purchasing, take advantage of it.

My wife carries a CZ 2075 RAMI.  It's a much more complex gun than a revolver, but even with it's short barrel, she's comfortable practicing with it and maintaining proficiency. Something to consider.

[Gavin_Sons]

Do yourself a favor too and buy a couple hundred rounds of ammo with whatever gun you choose. Before I will ever carry a gun I put between 600- 1000 rounds through it. This helps break in semi autos, not as important with revolvers because there are less moving parts, but wouls still put a couple hundred through it. With my XDM 40 I bought 1500 rounds and shot these over a few weekends. I got really comfortable and familiar with the gun. Was actually shooting baloons off fence posts at 60 yards. Make shooting fun and she will shoot more than if you just shoot paper.

[Flint]

Biguglyman,

  My daughter is a nurse over at Rochester general and has been thinking about getting cc license and taking some self defense classes. Anyway she was here the other day and I let here hold some of my guns to see what was comfortable, she really liked the bersa firestorm 380 I have, its light and compact and fit her hand well. She also liked the smith 5906 in 9mm and my bersa 45
I am 40 minutes away if its something your interested in looking at.

       Flint

[bigguy]

Biguglyman,

Here are links to two of the best resources on the web for that question.

The Pistol Forum - Topic: Gun For Wife.
Most of the members here are LEO and instructors. One would do well to listen the their advice.

(On a side note, this group is not impressed with OC (pepper spray) Search this site and you'll see their real world experiences with it.)

The Cornered Cat
This lady is also a member on the PF, a gunsmith, a shooting competitor, and I believe and instructor. She blogs about firearms specifically from a woman's perspective.

ETA: Here is a Cornered Cat blog titled How to Make Your Wife Hate Guns.

[czuch]

With the opinion hornet's nest properly stimulated, lemme say this;
The OP didnt say anything about experience. That she dosent have alot of disposable income and wants a first pistol, that tells me massive inexperience. Get the proper training and prepare with a non-lethal. Leaving your purse in the shopping cart like you did yesterday, just cant happen.
Ease into heavy responsibility. Studying to be a Dr.??!!  Thats alot of focus.
I always think its a good idea, I carry and am all for it. I have training.
 My daughter cant carry on campus. Its a good guy gun free zone. She carries spray.
More than a serious life threatner, I pray its just a creep.
Can she carry on campus?  I always am of the opinion that if its concealed, its not there till its there then we'll deal with it being there.
If you are in a gunfight enough to be critical of sprays, you need to move outta Chicago.

[Patrick]

A better option than pepper spray is a can of wasp and hornet spray.  Gots better range too.

For carrying in a vehicle thats a good idea, and, probably a lot cheaper.

[fudgie]

With the opinion hornet's nest properly stimulated, lemme say this;
The OP didnt say anything about experience. That she dosent have alot of disposable income and wants a first pistol, that tells me massive inexperience.

To me it dont. Not sure how wanting a first pistol = inexperience.  ??? I didnt have alot of income when I bought my 'big boy' pistol. And I been shooting since I was 10.

But you are correct, I am properly stimulated. 

[Gavin_Sons]

With the opinion hornet's nest properly stimulated, lemme say this;
The OP didnt say anything about experience. That she dosent have alot of disposable income and wants a first pistol, that tells me massive inexperience.

To me it dont. Not sure how wanting a first pistol = inexperience.  ??? I didnt have alot of income when I bought my 'big boy' pistol. And I been shooting since I was 10.

But you are correct, I am properly stimulated. 

As am I 

[PAVALKER]

A better option than pepper spray is a can of wasp and hornet spray.  Gots better range too.

For carrying in a vehicle thats a good idea, and, probably a lot cheaper.

I would imagine if you had a misfire or improperly aimed can of that strong stream it could very well stop the individual spraying it in their tracks as well.  A bullet would most likely penetrate glass, that spray would get bounced back.....  I'm thinking at least, no personal first hand experience.

[biguglyman]

Wow. Thanks for the responses people. She does already have a permit but no pistol as yet so inexperienced would be a good description. We will take her out to shoot whatever she gets until she's comfortable with it and I like the idea of a self-defense course. I will inquire about "campus carry" and make sure she realizes the HUGE responsibility carrying entails.

[Xtracho]

Training never stops and a CCW course is just the beginning. Defensive and combat pistol courses abound, as well as very good video training. Additionally, dry fire practice equipment such as SIRT can help lessen the costs vs. training live with ammo. Train, train, train and shoot, shoot, shoot. Not just to hit the target, but practice drawing from concealed, using your off hand to shoot, etc. etc. I know I'm preaching to the choir on that.

One salient point was made about the aftermath of a lethal force incident. The legal whirlwind begins. Investigation, lawyers, court, civil lawsuits etc. If you are going to commit to carrying a weapon for defense, then I am convinced you should also commit to protecting yourself to weather the legal ramifications that may result should you ever be forced to defend yourself and, God forbid, take a life in the process. And that means insurance. The best I have found, and I am proud to be one of their members....is the U.S. Concealed Carry Association. With differing membership levels you can insure yourself for up to 1.1 million dollars. This includes $1 million in civil liability coverage, $100K for legal fees, 10K immediately available to retain an attorney, 10K in bail money, & $500/day while in court. It costs me $27/month.

The USCCA also prints a slick monthly mag with gear reviews, training scenarios, and much more. Yeah, yeah I sound like a billboard, but I am not affiliated with them other than being a paid member.

To commit to carry a lethal weapon and fail to protect yourself should you ever be force to use it is just foolhardy in my opinion.

[Patrick]

After a little looking into the wasp spray thing, there seems to be considerable controversy. I still find it interesting for in vehicle carry because its legal. Pepper spray here isn't.




I've had some experience with self defense from a vehicle. As I get older the more I've rather use spray. I'd rather not spend time answering questions.

[hubcapsc]

I will inquire about "campus carry"

I learned in concealed carry class that it is illegal to carry on campus here,
but that the public streets and sidewalks don't count as "on campus"...

-Mike

[Jess from VA]

If there are any schools nationwide where carry is allowed, you can probably count them on one hand.

Years back I gave my niece a small combat folder for carry at college, and she said it would get her excommunicated from her school if caught. 

I carried in law school after my very first day of freshman year, one of our law professors was murdered in our parking garage for his empty briefcase.  They would have kicked me out too, so I didn't get caught.  A month later, I was found in (unlawful) possession of a cherry billy club under my seat (but not my Det. Spl.) during a routine stop.  After a short discussion about my nice used 383 Plymouth Fury police car, the cops gave it back to me saying you better hold on to this, you might need it.   (Detroit)

[Windrider]

If there are any schools nationwide where carry is allowed, you can probably count them on one hand.

Years back I gave my niece a small combat folder for carry at college, and she said it would get her excommunicated from her school if caught. 

I carried in law school after my very first day of freshman year, one of our law professors was murdered in our parking garage for his empty briefcase.  They would have kicked me out too, so I didn't get caught.  A month later, I was found in (unlawful) possession of a cherry billy club under my seat (but not my Det. Spl.) during a routine stop.  After a short discussion about my nice used 383 Plymouth Fury police car, the cops gave it back to me saying you better hold on to this, you might need it.   (Detroit)

Weapons are banned at Nebraska, but I don't know the details of the policy.  In '92 a grad student walked into an actuarial science class with an M-1 carbine and tried to shoot 20 students. Fortunately, the gun jammed and no one was hurt.  The perp was apprehended, found insane, and sent to a mental hospital. He was still there as of 2013.

Administration banned weapons, not just guns, on campus. One of our Anthro profs is an expert on Japanese knives and swords and has a large collection of them.  When he saw the policy that outlawed his collection he said, "Well, there are going to have to be some modifications of this."  Sometimes it's hard to craft good policies.

Loved those Mopars! 

[Black Pearl's Captain]

If there are any schools nationwide where carry is allowed, you can probably count them on one hand.

[/i]   (Detroit)

Might have been true 3 years ago but Kansas in my opinion now has one of the best CC laws in the nation. Basically if your have a CCL permit you can carry anywhere that does not have a metal detector at every entrance. "No guns" store signs don't even apply in Kansas any more. There are a few places that can post a "no guns by attorney general exception" until they get metal detectors installed (5 years I think). If a school is NOT posted then it's legal to carry with a permit. Posted also means every entrance to the facility. And there are no, none, nada, zero, penalties for carrying anywhere that has an old gun buster  sign. You do have to leave if asked to leave or face trespass charges.

So I think they are more than 5 schools in Kansas you could carry legally while inside.