CCW permit from Indiana will be ok in Ohio? (not mc related)

[solo1]

As any Hoosiers know, our Concealed Carry permit is not recognized in Ohio.

According to what I just found out, Ohio Bill 234 was signed into law by Governor Kasich in December 2014 and becomes effective on March 23, 2015.

As i read it, Indiana's CCW, as well as other states, will be recognized by Ohio starting on this date.

See Ohio Bil 234, Section 109.69, B (3) paragraph and see if I'm reading this right?

It appears to say that Indiana permits will be honored when driving through Ohio and that Ohio's Attorney General does NOT have to have a reciprocity agreement with that state.

Your comments please as I might be reading this wrong.  This is a BIG deal.

Wayne, solo1

[MarkT]

Text I wrote before the horrible boating accident - included as advice if you still have guns:

IIRC, Indiana's CCW is not honored by some states because it doesn't require training, as the other states (who don't honor it) do.  Of course, my rememberer could be defective.  Wouldn't be the first time.

As for me - any state that doesn't honor my CO CCW - I don't go there if possible.  And since I no longer work as a corp employee - I can avoid it.  I'm used to carrying - always.  Like putting on my pants.  I'm thinking in particular, IL.  When I visit family in WI - years ago I stopped taking I-88 from the quad cities but crossed Ol Miss at Dubuque instead.  If I go to IN - I'll go AROUND IL south. I have no reason to go to MN. Not gonna visit my bro in VA or go to the left coast.

I'd love to see constitutional carry, but there are issues to be resolved (eg., you've been vetted as not a felon or otherwise denied firearms ownership - the issues on the 4473; standardized training that isn't really a denial agenda, while I think there should be SOME training - then what do you carry - a "trained" card?) and with the lefties fighting it - might not happen in my lifetime.

[solo1]

Mark, you are correct.  Indiana does not require training of any kind , not a good situation.
Ohio doesn't recognize my permit for that reason.  I'm 12 miles from Ohio and the AMA is in Columbus, Ohio, and also there are many mc activities there. It would be nice to carry in Ohio.  As for Illinois, I've not lost anything there so no reason to go there (well maybe for Da Prez )

[vanagon40]

Wayne,

I believe you are reading the provision correctly and it does appear to be an intent to honor licenses of other states, even though there is no reciprocity agreement with the attorney general.

However, there is a Catch-22 in the language.  This was likely an unintentional omission by the legislature.

Section 109.69(B) provides: “If, on or after the effective date of this amendment, a person who is not a resident of this state has a valid concealed handgun license that was issued by another license-issuing state . . . .”

However, “valid concealed handgun license” is defined.  Section 109.69(D)(1) provides that “valid concealed handgun license” has the same meanings as in section 2923.11.  Section 2923.11(O) states that a “‘valid concealed handgun license’ or ‘valid license to carry a concealed handgun’ means a concealed handgun license that is currently valid . . . .”  Section 2923.11(N)(1) provides:

“Concealed handgun license” or “license to carry a concealed handgun” means, subject to division (N)(2) of this section, a license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun issued under section 2923.125 or 2923.1213 of the Revised Code or a license to carry a concealed handgun issued by another state with which the attorney general has entered into a reciprocity agreement under section 109.69 of the Revised Code.

The argument would be that a person who is not an Ohio resident has a “valid concealed handgun license” that was issued by another license-issuing state only if the license was issued by a state with a reciprocity agreement.  This would entirely defeat what appears to be the intended purpose of the new provision.  It would also render that provision a nullity.

However, under a strict reading of the statute, by definition, a person has a “valid concealed handgun license” only if the license was issued by a state with a reciprocity agreement.

[solo1]

Yeah, that is a definite ambiguity..  I've had enough experience with codes to know that you need to 'dig' into all paragraphs mentioned to see if there is a conflict.  If there is, law enforcement seems to go with the worst scenario (CYA).  Probably end up like the nice black lady from PA who got stopped in NJ.

[John Schmidt]

Go to the legislative records on a particular bill, it will show what the legislative intent was/is. Sometimes will bear no resemblance to the final wording but at least lets you know what they really were trying to do. Trouble is, if there's a disparity in that case, it won't be corrected until the next session.

[vanagon40]

It is obvious what the intent was.  It is the problem with the complexity of the state codes.  Each piece of legislation affects (and is affected by) numerous other code provisions.  It becomes nearly impossible to simply add or subtract something.  There are often unintended consequences.

I recall that in Indiana, if a person lost his or her driving privileges due to no insurance, he or she could possibly obtain a hardship license to drive to or from work.  However, to be eligible for the hardship license, the person must have completed substance abuse counseling and served a mandatory 30 days suspension for a chemical test failure.  I am not sure if that ever got fixed or is still on the books.

I have also seen legislation that amended repealed legislation.  And when two different bills address the same legislation, there can be two different versions of the same law.

And yes, one of the first bill each session is often one to fix all the omissions and conflicts from the prior session.

[solo1]

Vanagon 40

I called the NRA ILA and they agreed that the intent is correct............Indiana CCW permits would be allowed.  The ILA, like you and I, also agreed that we will just have to see how this Law will be interpreted.

[Sorcerer]

Ok who's  going to be the test case?

[vanagon40]

I do not mean to suggest that there will be any problem.  I only wanted to note that there does appear to be an omission in the drafting that COULD be problematic.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

I called the NRA ILA and they agreed that the intent is correct............Indiana CCW permits would be allowed.  The ILA, like you and I, also agreed that we will just have to see how this Law will be interpreted.

As you said, this is a big deal. Thanks for taking the time to post about it and call the NRA about it. This is the first I've heard of it. I've got family in Ohio I'd like to visit someday but not recognizing my carry permit keeps me away just as not recognizing my drivers license would.

[old2soon]

AND on a similar note-Missouri will recognize Illinois C C W permits but last I heard-Illinois not going to extend that particular courtesy to Missouri. Or anybody else last I heard. As some others have stated starting to feel not entirely dressed with out it!  I have a picture of me in Illinois needing my piece and asking the bad guy would you mind waiting while I retrieve my piece reassemble it load a magazine install mag and rack the slide so we can deal with it??  YA -right!!  More gubmint overstepping theirs and ours bounds.  RIDE SAFE.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Concerning permits, I think Indiana has it right. We are a shall issue state, we require no classes or other hoops and additional expenses and we can get a lifetime permit for less than $200. And, we recognize all other states permits.

I haven't seen any stats claiming the lack of required training has caused accidents or any other problems. What it does mean is those who need the ability to carry the most, as in the single mom working two jobs, working in a bad neighborhood and struggling to make ends meet has a better chance of being able to carry to protect herself. And frankly, it's more important for people like that to be able to carry than it is for people like me with some disposable income who seldom go into bad areas and who are not a criminals first choice when looking for easy victims.

Any foreseeable cost and inconvenience would not force me out of the market. Any possible inconvenience or cost could force those who most need to carry out of the market.

[doubletee]

This is great news for me, if it is, in fact, being interpreted correctly. All of my wife's family and my family are just across the Indiana/Ohio border and we travel there to visit them frequently.

[tjohnson]

Are there any volunteers to test this theory?

My wife is from Pittsburgh, to which I will be traveling the full length of the Ohio Turnpike in the upcoming weeks would love to "legally" carry my firearm loaded. I may have accidentally forgot to disassemble and place in seperate parts of the car in previous travelings. Hehehe. I look at it like this, if I do somtehing stupid and get caught I lose my firearm and face stiff consequences. However if I end up in a situation where I need my gun and have to use it, I will revert back to my constitutional right, and then after all the consequences have been handed down, I will legally go after the gubment for failing to protect me. That is exactly where I stand. Ironically, my employer has rules that prohibit my carrying within the buildings, I may have let that slip a time or two as well. I stand firm on my statement, "If you can't guarantee protection of me, then I have a right to protect myself".

[Black Pearl's Captain]

Concerning permits, I think Indiana has it right. We are a shall issue state, we require no classes or other hoops and additional expenses and we can get a lifetime permit for less than $200. And, we recognize all other states permits.

I haven't seen any stats claiming the lack of required training has caused accidents or any other problems. What it does mean is those who need the ability to carry the most, as in the single mom working two jobs, working in a bad neighborhood and struggling to make ends meet has a better chance of being able to carry to protect herself. And frankly, it's more important for people like that to be able to carry than it is for people like me with some disposable income who seldom go into bad areas and who are not a criminals first choice when looking for easy victims.

Any foreseeable cost and inconvenience would not force me out of the market. Any possible inconvenience or cost could force those who most need to carry out of the market.

FYI since it's a CCW thread, Kansas is days away from final approval for CC for anyone in the state without permits. Resident or nonresident. Similar to  Alaska, Az. and Vermont. They will keep the CCL permit program alive for those who want to carry out of state.

In my opinion Kansas will be the most CC friendly state in the nation shortly. You will be able to CC carry ANYWHERE that there is not a metal detector entrance in the whole state. Even now the worst penalty possible for licensed CC where someone deems they don't want you to CC is you must leave or face trespass charges.

[Jess from VA]

Sometimes, when you end up with a new law, and some questions remain about how it works/applies, it is best to wait and watch awhile to see how it works out, before relying on it.   (No kidding  )

[fudgie]

Ind residents could always carry in ohio. We could oc in ohio without a permit. Ive dont tht before i had my utah NR

[solo1]

I have my doubts about that, Brian.  Can you give me some reference on that?

NRA shows that Ohio does NOT honor Indiana CCW at this time.  As far as open carry, I am in complete disagreement on that idea.

[indybobm]

Right after I got my Indiana CCW permit, I took a handgun safety class from a retired Indianapolis police officer and applied for a Florida Out-Of-State permit. When I applied for the Florida permit I sent a copy of the gun safety certificate and it is noted on the Florida permit. This gives me reciprocity in many states. Even though Indiana does not require any classes of any kind, I think it is a good idea to get the training. Now I have to come up with a good way to carry on the bike.

[solo1]

My son and I just finished teaching an NRA firearm safety class at the New Haven Police Department.  We had 6 ladies and 2 men attending.  All appreciated the class and came away with a more comfortable feeling about guns.

Too bad that it's not mandatory as the police chief tells me some of the CCW holders are unsafe.
We just seem to get the students that really are concerned and not the ones who think that they know it all, like the young man last week in Ft. Wayne who was demonstrating how to play Russian Roulette...............he lost but has a new part in his hair. He couldn't even hit what he was aiming at.

Or the man who is facing charges for shooting his five year old daughter in the face with a 9mm ( an "unloaded" semiauto).  She died and he has that to face for the rest of his life.

There are many gun illiterates out there who own guns.

[MarkT]

Right after I got my Indiana CCW permit, I took a handgun safety class from a retired Indianapolis police officer and applied for a Florida Out-Of-State permit. When I applied for the Florida permit I sent a copy of the gun safety certificate and it is noted on the Florida permit. This gives me reciprocity in many states. Even though Indiana does not require any classes of any kind, I think it is a good idea to get the training. Now I have to come up with a good way to carry on the bike.

Before my guns were all lost, here's what I found:

With two boxes of holsters, I've tried a lot of options. Prefer strong side carry at the belt but most solns have a problem with the belt staying up, particularly with a full size .45.  My favorite is strong side IWB with a Desantis Scorpion in kydex.  They have models for a lot of handguns.  I use "instructor's belts" (find them at Midwayusa or Sportsmen's Guide or Cheaper than Dirt) and set up two pairs of jeans with heavy duty workmen's suspenders from Home Depot - modified with loops that the belt passes through, to hold up the belt and hardware w/o clips that slip or damage what they are clipped to. Takes 10 minutes or so to set up the belt with stuff attached, and you do it with the pants off.  Works well - the belt doesn't have to be really tight to hold up the weight - great for comfort, never prints with an overgarment, even concealed with shorter biker jackets since it's IWB and the pants don't slip down with the suspenders.  I used a heavy needle and pliars and heavy thread and what looks like seat belt webbing I got online, for making the loops.

Alternatively, a Galco shoulder rig is a great soln for any seated or standing position (eg driving bike or car, no problem with seat belts) when you will be wearing a jacket - which you can not close all the way if it's not too cold.  Yeah they are expensive but IMHO they are the best and worth it.  I like the Jackass Rig.  Make sure the retention strap is securely snapped.  I found I don't need the anchor strap of the holster or magazines to my belt which makes it faster to put on / take off, as well as allows me to push the holster forward for a faster draw.

Whatever you get, don't scimp on quality.  Get a holster made to fit your pistol, and stay away from those junk ballistic cloth holsters that will hold lots of pistols - none of them a good fit.  You need a good fit with adjustable tension for security, that also protects the trigger - completely covered when the gun is seated.  Embassassing to say the least to have your pistol fall out when you bend over - happened to me more than once with those 511 holster shirts.

[doubletee]

Sometimes, when you end up with a new law, and some questions remain about how it works/applies, it is best to wait and watch awhile to see how it works out, before relying on it.   (No kidding  )

That's going to be my strategy. I'm not going to take a chance on my next trip into OH to visit the parents. I'm going to wait and see how this all plays out.

[Varmintmist]

OH will not recognize PA permits. The reason I was given is there is no training requirement. I doubt that they recognize a IN one if you dont have a requirement to train.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Right after I got my Indiana CCW permit, I took a handgun safety class from a retired Indianapolis police officer and applied for a Florida Out-Of-State permit. When I applied for the Florida permit I sent a copy of the gun safety certificate and it is noted on the Florida permit. This gives me reciprocity in many states. Even though Indiana does not require any classes of any kind, I think it is a good idea to get the training. Now I have to come up with a good way to carry on the bike.

I carry a KelTec .380 which makes carry easier than carrying a bigger gun. If I'm carrying on my belt I use a Fobus holster which friction locks on the trigger guard and holds the pistol securely. My favorite method of motorcycle carry which has worked comfortably for me through many states, national parks and thousands of miles is a cheap Uncle Mikes holster intended as a right hand IWB holster. I have it sewn inside my left side-zip motorcycle boot opposite the zipper with the belt clip over the top edge of the boot. It's been a rock solid holster which adds no weight to my pants and can be drawn left handed with my right hand still on the throttle if necessary. It's by far the best method of carry I've tried.

I also sometimes use a belt slide holster but I use it more when I'm working (I'm a gunsmith) than when I'm riding. It will accommodate virtually any pistol I'm repairing and allow me to easily carry it for testing.

[Big Al of Tennessee]

Reciprocity Agreements as of before the vote.

It is cool, click on your state and what you have.

Instant results.

Have fun.

http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html

Why would anyone want to go to Ohio anyways.

[doubletee]

Why would anyone want to go to Ohio anyways.

It's where I was born and raised and where all of my immediate family still resides.

[solo1]

As I mentioned originally Ohio does not recognize Indiana permits because of no training.  This thread was about a possible change in Ohio law to allow that.

As far as carrying, I carry in a number of ways using a Glock 42 or a Glock 22.  My firearms were not lost and when we have to fear that the Feds will take away our guns, we've already lost.

Big Al, Ohio is a great state, quite similar to Indiana, another great state.  Both are somewhat hilly in the southern portions (Ohio more so) but the north is flat.  Both have good laws concerning firearm possession.  Disadvantages are sorta boring rides here but we have advantages also.  The AMA is in Ohio and I like to visit the museum there.  Indiana has a great WWII museum in Auburn, likewise on that.

Solo1

[MarkT]

 My firearms were not lost and when we have to fear that the Feds will take away our guns, we've already lost.

Mine aren't ALL lost.  I have a Biden-approved antique double-barrel shotgun.  Dbl triggers, outside hammers, Damascus steel though.  Have to use antique underpowered shells if you're foolish enough to fire it.  It's actually for decoration.  Also have a .22.  Single shot bolt Remington target rifle.  Will shoot the nuts of a gnat at 50yds. And an antique Mauser bolt rifle - pre-Nazi.  And a Derringer.  That's my story and I'm stickin to it.

[solo1]

 

[Jess from VA]

MarkT, I remember reading a Massad Ayoob (career policeman and legendary gun writer) article years ago, where he recommended hanging an old (broken, worn, unfirable, but perhaps attractive) gun on the wall within plain view of the front door (maybe even through the door window, if any) as a telltale sign that a bad person has been in your house when you were gone.  Letting you go to full alert right at the front door (if it is missing).  Though I'd hate to lose that old Damascus double hammer gun even if it is only a wall hanger.

I have a bunch of hand hammered old copper and brass all over my walls (from Turkey), and I bought a nice Turk mock up of an old American pepper-box (with silver and mother of pearl inlay) that hangs up there with some old copper and brass, and can see it from the front door.  Just a random thought.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

MarkT, I remember reading a Massad Ayoob (career policeman and legendary gun writer) article years ago, where he recommended hanging an old (broken, worn, unfirable, but perhaps attractive) gun on the wall within plain view of the front door (maybe even through the door window, if any) as a telltale sign that a bad person has been in your house when you were gone.  Letting you go to full alert right at the front door. 

What a great idea.
Thanks Jess

[Gavin_Sons]

Well hell, around here just throw an old H&R shotgun on the wall. These theives dont care if it's worth 25 bucks or 2500 bucks.  A couple weeks ago a hose was broken into just a mile or so from mine and the police found 3 ar-15s in a ditch along the highway. Only way they found the is one had a flashlight mounted to the rail and somehow got turned on

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Looks to me like it's possible West Virginia may soon allow Hoosiers to carry in their state too. At least I assume that's how permit-less carry would work.
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150319/west-virginia-four-pro-gun-bills-awaiting-governor-tomblins-signature