You may pay for it,but may not own it

[Jersey mike]

http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/

4/21/15

IT’S OFFICIAL: JOHN Deere and General Motors want to eviscerate the notion of ownership. Sure, we pay for their vehicles. But we don’t own them. Not according to their corporate lawyers, anyway.

In a particularly spectacular display of corporate delusion, John Deere—the world’s largest agricultural machinery maker —told the Copyright Office that farmers don’t own their tractors. Because computer code snakes through the DNA of modern tractors, farmers receive “an implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle.”

[Chrisj CMA]

That's great.  You mean I get to use it until it finally dies but when it breaks down and is fixable the OWNER is responsible.  I like that............

[dreamaker]

Just a thought!!  To some it may sound stupid, but think about it! You own your home, correct, quit paying your taxes and see if you still own it.  Also I notice a trend on some major software's, they seem to be going in the direction of leasing software, rather than buying it out right, check out Adobe! And there others also. Now what they are doing with John Deer and GM they have been doing with software from the get go.  Read your agreements.

[Robert]

Mercedes will not let you buy certain parts for their cars even being the owner. Things like shifter, transmission module so you cant rebuild a Mercedes transmission, instrument cluster, and quite a few other things. You have to take it back to the dealer and let them repair it at their prices. Moving to subscription based software allows a constant revenue stream. Another sham from corp America.

[MarkT]

OK.  So I'll have to expend Due Diligence and not "buy" any of these products I don't own.  When I have a choice.  See how long those lawyers theories last when their products lose market share.  John Deere can KMA.  I already stay away from GM but not for this reason.  Same for Mercedes.  Another reason to boycott them.

[RDAbull]

I'll just take mine to MarkT, BigMike or AtticRat.  They can fix anything!!!

[art]

Unless the consumer rebels these company will do as they please. Boycotting dose work but the people have to stick together but don't hold your breath. Those days are gone. The American public are sheepies.

[dreamaker]

Also I am just shooting from hip on this, but from what I have seen on TV, the US is not the main squeeze any more.  It seems like the markets are in like China, India, Russia, brazil, places like that.  I get the impression that US is more like a backup, nice to have, but not necessary any more. I hope I am wrong!!!!  Speaking of owning our homes, the companies that holds our mortgages, I am wondering who owns them??

[Jess from VA]

Speaking of owning our homes, the companies that holds our mortgages, I am wondering who owns them??

The way this works, the Mortgage Co has a (first/paramount) lien on your home (called a mortgage), filed with the county register of deeds (serving as notice to the world).  Their loan to you to buy your house is secured by your house, and during the existence of the mortgage/loan, they have primary ownership of your house, but only to the extent of the remaining unpaid mortgage balance.  You are the secondary owner of your house, but only to the difference between its fair market value and the remaining unpaid mortgage balance (ie, if it is worth more than you still owe).  This is generally called your equity in the house, and your ownership interest is called an equitable interest.

So long as you are in compliance with your mortgage contract, you have exclusive rights to the use and occupancy of the house and property. (but see easements)    

If you owe more than it's worth (like many after the 2008 bubble), you have no equity and they essentially own the whole house.  If it's worth 200K, and you owe 100K on the mortgage, you have an equitable interest of 100K...... but the mortgage company has paramount rights and always get paid in full first, and you get what's left.  And if you sell with the mortgage in effect, you pay all costs of sale, they don't help.

This is essentially the same deal as when you take out a loan to buy a car (though a little simpler).  Instead of a deed, it is a title, and the first secured party on the title is the lender bank.  

If you add a second mortgage or equity loan on the house, then the original mortgagor gets paid in full first, the holder of the second comes second, and you come last.

So long as you abide by all the terms and conditions of the mortgage (make timely payments), any equitable interest you have in the house is protected by law and contract.  But if you materially breach the mortgage contract, they have the right to declare the entire unpaid balance due, and/or to foreclose.  Here is where people often get screwed out of their equitable interest.  You can be evicted, the home listed for sale somewhat below fair market value to effect quick sale, and all costs, attorney fees, surveys, notices, title search, house repairs and cleaning of the company's foreclosure sale is chargeable against you, and added to the remaining balance due on the mortgage.  With some limitations, the mortgage holder is only concerned with his balance due from you, and if your equitable interest disappears in smoke, that's TFB.  You'll note that all mortgage contracts are drafted by and largely in favor of mortgage companies.  All states have truth in lending and other laws to protect consumers and homeowners, of one sort or another.

This is a timely subject for me, because I just got a wild hair, took a large chunk of my federal 401k (with two painful chunks of taxes to the fed (28%) and state (5.75%)) and wrote the largest personal check I will ever write, and am awaiting a release of lien on my house from my county register of deeds.  No more mortgage payment for me. 

[hairyteeth]

I wish they would fix the A/C on THEIR dang tractor!
HT

[MP]

Isn't that the way we "own" the software we buy?  We really are just licensing it?

Otherwise, if we truly "owned" it, we would be free to do what we want, like put it on multiple machines, copy and sell, etc?

I think more and more things will go this way, as technology takes over more and more.

Look at all the software in todays cars and pickups.  You think you really own that software, that you are free to do with it as you wish?  Copy, duplicate, etc?  I am sure somewhere deep in the pages of fine print, it says you are not.

MP

[Hooter]

  John Deere is no different than ANY TOP OF THE LINE MOTOR CYCLE. You pay for the name.

[dreamaker]

Speaking of owning our homes, the companies that holds our mortgages, I am wondering who owns them??

The way this works, the Mortgage Co has a (first/paramount) lien on your home (called a mortgage), filed with the county register of deeds (serving as notice to the world).  Their loan to you to buy your house is secured by your house, and during the existence of the mortgage/loan, they have primary ownership of your house, but only to the extent of the remaining unpaid mortgage balance.  You are the secondary owner of your house, but only to the difference between its fair market value and the remaining unpaid mortgage balance (ie, if it is worth more than you still owe).  This is generally called your equity in the house, and your ownership interest is called an equitable interest.

So long as you are in compliance with your mortgage contract, you have exclusive rights to the use and occupancy of the house and property. (but see easements)    

If you owe more than it's worth (like many after the 2008 bubble), you have no equity and they essentially own the whole house.  If it's worth 200K, and you owe 100K on the mortgage, you have an equitable interest of 100K...... but the mortgage company has paramount rights and always get paid in full first, and you get what's left.  And if you sell with the mortgage in effect, you pay all costs of sale, they don't help.

This is essentially the same deal as when you take out a loan to buy a car (though a little simpler).  Instead of a deed, it is a title, and the first secured party on the title is the lender bank.  

If you add a second mortgage or equity loan on the house, then the original mortgagor gets paid in full first, the holder of the second comes second, and you come last.

So long as you abide by all the terms and conditions of the mortgage (make timely payments), any equitable interest you have in the house is protected by law and contract.  But if you materially breach the mortgage contract, they have the right to declare the entire unpaid balance due, and/or to foreclose.  Here is where people often get screwed out of their equitable interest.  You can be evicted, the home listed for sale somewhat below fair market value to effect quick sale, and all costs, attorney fees, surveys, notices, title search, house repairs and cleaning of the company's foreclosure sale is chargeable against you, and added to the remaining balance due on the mortgage.  With some limitations, the mortgage holder is only concerned with his balance due from you, and if your equitable interest disappears in smoke, that's TFB.  You'll note that all mortgage contracts are drafted by and largely in favor of mortgage companies.  All states have truth in lending and other laws to protect consumers and homeowners, of one sort or another.

This is a timely subject for me, because I just got a wild hair, took a large chunk of my federal 401k (with two painful chunks of taxes to the fed (28%) and state (5.75%)) and wrote the largest personal check I will ever write, and am awaiting a release of lien on my house from my county register of deeds.  No more mortgage payment for me.  

Great explanation!!!  I am going shoot from the hip again and ask a silly question.  Can the condition called, Eminent domain trump all the above, I don't know much about it. But I get the impression that what it amounts to is: We take it, when we want it, with no explanation.  My point to all of this is, kind of silly. OK, from what I understand about our national debt, which is limited understanding. Now BO borrower money in the trillions from China, figuratively our government is in a pissing contest with them at this time, now understand they have people, in the billions. And what little info I have gathered, OK, my understanding is that, China owns a lot of real estate in the US, not to mention some of the US companies they may own, as a major silent partner. So my point is in the event of some break down, in what ever, could China exercise the Eminent domain concept?  If this sound scattered, is because it is, just thinking out loud!! Trying to work out a  puzzle.

[Robert]

Isn't that the way we "own" the software we buy?  We really are just licensing it?

Otherwise, if we truly "owned" it, we would be free to do what we want, like put it on multiple machines, copy and sell, etc?

I think more and more things will go this way, as technology takes over more and more.

Look at all the software in todays cars and pickups.  You think you really own that software, that you are free to do with it as you wish?  Copy, duplicate, etc?  I am sure somewhere deep in the pages of fine print, it says you are not.

MP

We dont own the software now but have a use license to be able to do what we need to do on anything with the software in it. Yes we cannot copy nor redistribute the software but the difference is we will have to pay yearly to use the software. Its like a song we buy it on a cd and we own it we cannot redistribute it or copy it but we own if for life. But can you imagine having to pay yearly just to hear the song we bought? So you never own anything, just as your house may be paid off but if you dont pay the taxes on it then they take it. So its not so different when the king owned everything.

   The more you have to look to someone else to issue you a license or ask permission or listen to rules is the same amount that you are not a free man. You can live in prison if you follow the rules its all what you are allowed to do.  

[Jess from VA]

Can the condition called, Eminent domain trump all the above,

Dude, don't make me start my billing clock on you.   

Eminent domain does not trump higher security interests (mortgages) (the mortgage holder would get paid first, and you second, and both of you would be equally interested in getting fair market value for property taken, and both you and the mortgage holder could/would stand together against an unfair taking by a Govt entity). 

It is a forced taking usually by a govt entity (but it may be on behalf of a private business which plans something the G thinks is a good idea) and requires just compensation. This is covered in the Constitution.  When the TVA moved thru TN and KY a lot of very poor people got thrown off land held for generations for not much money.  It was not worth a lot, and times were hard, but it was worth more to the owners than the money they got.

I have a friend and the county moved to take his commercial property and offered him X, and after a 2 year litigation he got 7X (and all his attorney fees and costs because the county was trying to steal from him and they were found to be in bad faith and punished) (it was a good thing he had a pile of money to fight them, most of us don't). 

China could take no US property by eminent domain, but with a proxy setup anything is possible.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Proxy+representative

Federal, state, and local governments may take private property through their power of eminent domain or may regulate it by exercising their Police Power. The Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution requires the government to provide just compensation to the owner of the private property to be taken. A variety of property rights are subject to eminent domain, such as air, water, and land rights. The government takes private property through condemnation proceedings. Throughout these proceedings, the property owner has the right of due process.

Eminent domain is a challenging area for the courts, which have struggled with the question of whether the regulation of property, rather than its acquisition, is a taking requiring just compensation. In addition, private property owners have begun to initiate actions against the government in a kind of proceeding called inverse condemnation.

[dreamaker]

Thanks, this is interesting and helpful. When one goes on the internet to find good info. its tuff, because anyone can express their opinions in it, and not necessarily have be true.

 I am just trying to think out, in terms of extreme and unusual circumstances, and try to understand what could be the worst possible scenario and may be prepare for it. Based on our present worth of the US dollar, would we really be getting fair value.

 Business practices has always boggled my mind and I find it overwhelming. My brain tends to be slightly analytical, and it seems, even when I am not looking, it calculate possible scenarios. I guess it gives me that suspicious mind set. Thing is these days, it seems business always has these schemes going on, that benefits them and in the true sense, rarely the public. With this new Neo pay as you go, rather than just buying it out right.  It is a means to give constant flow of income for business, whether you use it or not.  People have to start paying more attention, because it seem they are always trying to find a ways to put their hands in our pocket. 

[Varmintmist]

look up Kelo vs New London for some fun stuff.

A few states revamped their eminent domain law after this theft, not to many though.

Jess, I wrote a big check not long ago also. When it sinks in, you will physically feel the weight come off your shoulders. It was a lot easier rolling out of the rack when you know that you own where your feet are going to land. I don't owe anybody jack.

[Jess from VA]

look up Kelo vs New London for some fun stuff.

A few states revamped their eminent domain law after this theft, not to many though.

Jess, I wrote a big check not long ago also. When it sinks in, you will physically feel the weight come off your shoulders. It was a lot easier rolling out of the rack when you know that you own where your feet are going to land. I don't owe anybody jack.

Thanks Varmintman, I just got off the phone with Wells Fargo and confirmed my home is now my own (as long as I keep paying the taxes).  It feels pretty good already.  Other than monthly overhead, I have owed nothing but my mortgage for two decades.  From here on out, it's overhead only.  

It's a funny deal, but if you are selling, you want your home to be worth as much as possible.  But if you are staying put, you want it to be worth as little as possible (taxes).  And if you are staying put.... it's not all that funny.

The Kelo case was what I was referring to above when mentioning that eminent domain is supposed to be for government purposes, but it might be for a private company.... if the G thinks it's a good deal for the G.  They used to represent us, now they represent themselves.