Can't find neutral when engine cold and on

[jabster]

Hi.

So I just pulled the bike out this AM for my first ride of the season. Well, tried to anyways. 

It's been sitting in the garage since last fall, raised up on a lift. I changed the oil maybe a month ago. I've started it a few times, but did not try riding until this morning.

This morning it started fine, I let it warm up a bit, climbed on, pulled the clutch in, and the bike wanted to move forward. I think I had not put it in first gear yet. Turned it off, made sure I was in neutral, turn on, put in first gear, can't get to neutral. The wanting to pull forward with the clutch in seemed to go away.

My clutch reservoir looks full. Didn't notice any problems last year riding.

The other posts I've found so far have shifting problems with a hot engine, not just barely started up.

I will say I just pushed the bike back in the garage and took off for work in the cage, and didn't look at anything else yet.

I've had no problems finding neutral in the past, and no shuddering when taking off. Never had a problem pulling the clutch lever all the way in either.

So....clutch replacement time? Anything I should look at first?

Thanks,
John

[Ricky-D]

This morning it started fine, I let it warm up a bit, climbed on, pulled the clutch in, and the bike wanted to move forward. I think I had not put it in first gear yet. Turned it off, made sure I was in neutral, turn on, put in first gear, can't get to neutral. The wanting to pull forward with the clutch in seemed to go away.

Please explain this a little more clearly. The bike should not want to move when in neutral, regardless.

Not being able to get in neutral, while being in 1st gear and with the engine running is not uncommon.

If you are considering you have a clutch problem, the first thing to do would be to bleed the clutch system.

***

[Gryphon Rider]

I wonder if corrosion or something else is preventing the clutch discs from properly separating when the lever is pulled in, and they are thus still transmitting some power, and that the bike is in gear when you think it isn't.

[da prez]

  Give it a chance. Some clutches will have a tendency to stick as all the oil has been squeezed out of them. Get it in a safe spot and use it a couple of times.

                                  da prez

[signart]

Is your shifter o.e.m. or aftermarket?

[Patrick]

The wanting to pull forward with the clutch in seemed to go away.
end quote



From that statement it seems to me there is nothing wrong.

If this monster will now go from neutral into first without stalling or lurching [ engine running] you are good to go.  I think I would ride it for awhile and see what happens.

[Bambam650]

Yep, probably just the "stiction" from the clutch plates sticking together after sitting so long.  Some bikes are more prone to this than others.  Never had a problem with this on my Valk.  On the other hand, I have to rock my KLR650 back and forth hard in neutral with clutch in to break the clutch plates free from just sitting overnight.  Blipping the throttle while in neutral with the clutch pulled in will also help break the plates free.

[Steve K (IA)]

The clutch isn't disengaging.  Bleed the clutch.  Better yet, replace the fluid.  This sounds just like what has happened a few times to both my Valks over 15 years.  Showed up when trying to go for my first ride after sitting all winter.  Bled the clutch and all was ok.

[Bighead]

Listen to Da Prez but I have a question why is this your first ride?

[jabster]

Listen to Da Prez but I have a question why is this your first ride?

Because with all the stuff going on in my life recently I've been too tired to ride. Better safe than pushing it.

-john

[jabster]

Is your shifter o.e.m. or aftermarket?

OEM

[jabster]

The wanting to pull forward with the clutch in seemed to go away.
end quote



From that statement it seems to me there is nothing wrong.

If this monster will now go from neutral into first without stalling or lurching [ engine running] you are good to go.  I think I would ride it for awhile and see what happens.

OK. i'll give it a shot this weekend when I'm not rushing to get to work. Try and get it around the block a few times and see what happens. Then bleed the clutch after that if still problems. I did just drain and refill the clutch fluid a couple of years ago tho.

Never had this problem in the past after a winter.

1998 Tourer BTW, ~25k miles.

thanks,
john

[jabster]

So I had it out for a bit today. Just around the block a few times. Shifting seems generally OK, but I still can't get it into neutral unless the engine is off. Running, I was able to get to neutral from 2nd a couple of times, and from 1st once.

Grr.  I'm waiting for a guy to give me a quote for a new clutch.

[Steve K (IA)]

Did you bleed the clutch?   ??? 

[Blaze]

Just wondering. Did you go with a different oil or weight this time?

[jabster]

I did not change oil weights, and the guy quoting a clutch actually just recommend changing fluid. I'll will start there.

Thanks,
John

[R J]

I'd say the little glass window shows a DARK looking fluid.

Drain it and refill with a fresh load of brake fluid.

Make sure you have clear fluid coming out of the lower end before ya button it up.

Sometimes my bike will had a plate lock up on a start up.    It usually goes away after that 1st lurch.

I'd say nothing to worry about.   Just my humble opinion.

[jabster]

No. Not dark. Just changed it a couple of years ago after it'd been sitting in the garage for around 10 years.

I am taking it in this weekend. That way I'll know it's completely flushed and refilled. And then hopefully that'll do it. Should only cost me at most $40.

-john

[Paladin528]

on my VT1100 if I let it sit for any amount of time, shifting into 1st gear for the first time after sitting will actually stall the bike.  Once the plates free up it is fine and dandy.
What you are experiencing is the clutch plated and discs "Vacuum Locking" together. If you put oil on 2 pieces of flat metal and put them together then attempt to pull the apart it is very difficult to do.  Same sort of issue here.  Once things get moving it will be fine.

[jabster]

on my VT1100 if I let it sit for any amount of time, shifting into 1st gear for the first time after sitting will actually stall the bike.  Once the plates free up it is fine and dandy.
What you are experiencing is the clutch plated and discs "Vacuum Locking" together. If you put oil on 2 pieces of flat metal and put them together then attempt to pull the apart it is very difficult to do.  Same sort of issue here.  Once things get moving it will be fine.

So how far/how long/how fast do you ride to get things loosened up?

[Bambam650]

You don't have to ride it at all.  Once you break the plates free at start up you should be good.  You can break the plates free either manually by rocking the bike back and forth with the clutch pulled in while in 1st gear until they break free or you can do it mechanically by letting the engine warm up a little and revving it few times in neutral with the clutch pulled in and then shift into 1st gear.  After a few times you will get the hang of it and which method works best for you.  I have to do this every day with my KLR650 so it just comes naturally to me.  The plates will lock up on my KLR as soon as the engine cools down again.

[Paladin528]

Yeah, What Bambam said.  I am just used to it.  If I have it in gear in the garage and try to back it out, I need to give it a good push to break it free.  Once Its running after that there are no issues.

[R J]

My Old KLX used to stick like that.

One day I told my grandson to change the oil in it.

Guess what, he put Mobil 1 Deisel oil in it and it never stuck again as long as I owned it.

It ran a lot quieter and was more responsive on the twist of the right wrist.

Not saying it will work for everyone, but it worked on this unit.

[jabster]

No luck yet, but I have a question.

Regardless of the problem here, why can I easily find neutral as soon as I turn the engine off? It seems to me that I should have trouble whether on or off.

-john

[Dusty]

With the clutch not fully disengaging there is load or pressure being applied to the gears in the transmission. Shut the engine off and that pressure or drag goes away. Now the gears are not loaded against one another so the selector fork is able to move freely to select neutral.

Dusty

[jabster]

Got it. That makes sense. Thanks.

-john

[WintrSol]

No. Not dark. Just changed it a couple of years ago after it'd been sitting in the garage for around 10 years.

Clutch and brake fluid should be changed every two years, period, even if you don't use it. It absorbs water from the air and goes bad. Clutch fluid often goes bad faster, because of the wider heat/cold cycles, so I replace mine every year.

[jabster]

So, the update:

Once I got it on the road for the 3 mile trip to the shop, it became obvious that the clutch handle was weak. I couldn't tell during my short trips up and down the alley.

So, they changed the clutch fluid and now all is good with the world again.

Except for all the rain, anyways. Stop it.

-john

[gordonv]

Glad for the results.

Maybe the other fluids also need to be changed out, asap, too?

[jabster]

I had the guy check them all while it was there. Everything else was fine.