Nitrogen in tires: pros/cons -- cars and/or bikes, like valks (now related)

[Tx Bohemian]

What are the opinions of all here (motorheads and normal folk) about putting nitrogen in tires?

If pro or con give reason why.


The reason for me asking is we bought a KIA Sedona from the local dealer and the dealer puts nitrogen in all the new cars as soon as they get off the transport. That's not a big deal for me as I can go either way, BUT they charged me $99 for the nitrogen!
To me that should be an option, and if I want it then charge me.
I also found out that if my neighbor brought his Chevy truck to this same dealer to get nitrogen installed they would charge him $49!! This burns my a$$ that I get charged DOUBLE for this stuff after I dropped a buttload of $ on this car!!

[mrtappan]

Its a gimmick

Its only benefit is that because nitrogen is a larger molecule than oxygen, it leaks out of the tires slower keeping them properly inflated longer.  So if you regularly check your tire pressure then theres really no benefit.

[solo1]

I used nitrogen once in my Mazda Three.   They charged me 20 bucks and free refills, both of you got royally ripped off!

I no longer use it, if you have a nail (slow leak) you won't be checking your tires and that's not good.  I check my tires monthly and use plain ole air.

[Patrick]

Since air is made up of 78% nitrogen, why worry about about the other 22% as long as its dry air.

Now, why not talk about helium in tires. Back when I was young and broke I wanted cheaper insurance on the Triumph and needed to get it under 300 or 350 lbs [ don't remember which now] so I filled the tires with helium and got a weight slip. I got my cheap insurance.

[sandy]

Most race cars use it because it doesn't gain as much pressure when heated up. For ordinary street vehicles, it's a waste of $$$$$. Also, when you put a tire on a wheel, it's full of air. Now you pressurize it with straight Nitrogen. The air isn't purged out, it's still in there. $100 is a big rip. I'd have told the dealer to take his N2 out and put air in or he could keep the car. There's other dealers.

[Willow]

If someone thinks that is worthwhile I may have this bridge ...   

[..]

A rip off and possibly a bald faced lying sack of dog poop.

Get him to prove he put the nitrogen in by doing an analysis of the air in your tires whilst you are present.

Get your money back.

[Firefighter]

If you have nitrogen in your tires and you have a flat or need to add more you had better be at your dealer cause your not going to find it readily available. High flying jets use it because it does not have moisture to freeze, the pressure remains more constant, does not leak out as fast, does not support combustion.  Your car,,,, well???

[The emperor has no clothes]

Nitrogen is so old school. Freon is the hip new thing.

[BF]

Nitrogen is so old school. Freon is the hip new thing.

You laugh....but I've actually used R22 to get my service truck back to the shop from 65 miles away.  The trick is to NOT put liquid in it.  That was about 32 years ago, but indeed true.  Had to do it well more than several times to get home. 


As for the nitrogen, it depends.  Are they selling you the summer blend or the winter blend of nitrogen?  The winter blend is heavier and can increase your gas consumption.     This time of year, I'd use the summer blend.   

[GiG]

A lot of Hot Air 

[Moonshot_1]

Actually putting nitrogen in your tires can make a significant difference in the handling and performance of my vehicle if I put it in for you at $99 a pop.

[art]

You got screwed twice. Bought a Kia and nitrogen.

[Gryphon Rider]

Also, when you put a tire on a wheel, it's full of air. Now you pressurize it with straight Nitrogen. The air isn't purged out, it's still in there.

I'll start off by saying I think the cost outweighs the benefit by a long stretch, and that's assuming the benefits are legit (which they aren't).

If you remove the valve core from an air inflated tire at sea level, and the tire lays flat, thus having pretty much the same shape as when inflated, it will have an air pressure of one atmosphere, or 14.7 PSI, compared to a perfect vacuum.  A tire gauge reads atmosphere as zero, so the real pressure is gauge pressure plus 14.7.  The ideal gas law says that the number of gas molecules in a given volume at a given temperature is directly proportional to the pressure, so if you triple the pressure, you triple the number of gas molecules.

Let's say the recommended pressure is 29.4 PSI.  That would be an actual pressure of 44.1 PSI vs a perfect vacuum.  You start out with 78n molecules of nitrogen and 22n molecules of oxygen, CO2, and other gases, totalling 100n molecules of various gases.  Now by adding 29.4 PSI of pure nitrogen, you are tripling the number of molecules, and now have 278n molecules of nitrogen and 22n molecules of other gases.  You have gone from 22% "other" to 7.3% "other".  You should now be 1/3 as sad about having other stuff in your tires!  

No need to thank me for adding tremendous value to this discussion.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Nitrogen is so old school. Freon is the hip new thing.

You laugh....but I've actually used R22 to get my service truck back to the shop from 65 miles away.  The trick is to NOT put liquid in it.  That was about 32 years ago, but indeed true.  Had to do it well more than several times to get home. 


As for the nitrogen, it depends.  Are they selling you the summer blend or the winter blend of nitrogen?  The winter blend is heavier and can increase your gas consumption.     This time of year, I'd use the summer blend.   

Its a good thing that was 32 years ago BF. Have you seen the price of R22 these days ?

[Moonshot_1]

What do they charge for synthetic nitrogen?

[Jess Tolbirt]

post the name of the dealer so i can send him a how stupid i think he is email..

[BF]

Nitrogen is so old school. Freon is the hip new thing.

You laugh....but I've actually used R22 to get my service truck back to the shop from 65 miles away.  The trick is to NOT put liquid in it.  That was about 32 years ago, but indeed true.  Had to do it well more than several times to get home. 


As for the nitrogen, it depends.  Are they selling you the summer blend or the winter blend of nitrogen?  The winter blend is heavier and can increase your gas consumption.     This time of year, I'd use the summer blend.   

Its a good thing that was 32 years ago BF. Have you seen the price of R22 these days ?

Yep.  

[MAD6Gun]

 The dealer I work for also installs nitrogen in All new and used cars. I don't know what the charge is.  The nitrogen machine  drains the tires,refills with nitrogen,drains them again and refills them once more at the set pressure. If you ask me it's a big pain in the ars. If your tires get low and you fill them with air you have bring it back and have the procedure done again. Now if a car comes in for a oil change and the tires are low we have to top them off with nitrogen. It's a pain to have to hook that stupid machine back up just to top off. Oh and we only have ONE machine so if someone is using it you have to wait. If they are doing a truck it takes forever....

[WintrSol]

Some years ago, when the N2 fad was really strong, a long-term study was sponsored by a government agency. They compared pressure retention, rolling resistance, pressure increase during use, and other qualities of tires with standard shop air, generated nitrogen, and air from a dryer. The bottom line was that, while there was a 'measurable' improvement in pressure retention, other normal leaks far exceeded the differences, and pressure changes due to temperature changes were only slightly better for N2 than dry air, with both better than shop air by a few psi over a typical temperature increase. I use dry air for autocross in my car, for this reason; traction is more predictable from run to run.

I think NASCAR uses nitrogen because it is a cheap and readily available source, track-side, and easier to carry around than an air compressor and tank. Since they heat the tires before installation, I doubt the pressure change thing is that important.

[cookiedough]

I'd get my moola back and not a dime out of me right upfront.  Should have said something then and not after, most would.

I grumble when they think 185 dollar service fee for paperwork is reasonable.  Years ago it was 85 bucks which at that time was horrible, but 185, and some over 200 now for a so called service fee, for a few pieces of paper and storing them is some darn premium quality letterhead?  Just a gimmick for yet another way for stealerships to stay in business. 

[Robert]

If you paid 3 to 6k for a nitrogen machine and can charge 49 to 99 a pop I guess it would be worth it to you but other than that, no. But if you are a dealer or a independent tire dealer and want your customers to return then telling them that nitrogen is the only thing you can put in then its also worth it to you.

[Tx Bohemian]

WOW guys, there was no “pros” comments.

I was kinda expecting at least some kind of discussion, like we get into about the “best oil and tire” conversations!! ( incidentally I’ve been using regular car 10-30 Pennzoil for the last 300K miles in my bike and if you run a car tire on the rear you’ll die in a fiery explosion!! IMO)

 I also have the same thoughts as all about this nitrogen issue, that it is a scam. I was able to retrieve my $99.  Took some doing but after a discussion with the general manager they came around.

I do feel there is a need for nitrogen in certain applications but not in a normal driver.
One of their arguments was that “airliners use it in their tires” so it must be good, and my rebuttal was “yea, but I don’t drive my car at 30K’ where the temp is -50 deg”!!
Probably it was at this point that they realized I knew more about this than their normal customer off the street (and them).

You got screwed twice. Bought a Kia and nitrogen.

And Art you have no idea why we decided on this vehicle so there’s no way you can conclude we got screwed. I do know a couple of families, driving KIAs that literally walked away from very severe accidents, that would argue with you.

And here’s a hint for you why we chose this vehicle, my wife does adult daycare for her parents that are in their 90s.  They have a difficult time just walking much less getting in and out of a car and loading walkers. Among other things this Sedona has a good ride height and door openings that make this, and other tasks, much easier for them.


I will say the 3.3ltr-V6 has substantial “get up and go”!!

[Alien]

Since air is made up of 78% nitrogen, why worry about about the other 22% as long as its dry air.

Now, why not talk about helium in tires. Back when I was young and broke I wanted cheaper insurance on the Triumph and needed to get it under 300 or 350 lbs [ don't remember which now] so I filled the tires with helium and got a weight slip. I got my cheap insurance.

Um...I don't know about that.

[BonS]

Since air is made up of 78% nitrogen, why worry about about the other 22% as long as its dry air.

Now, why not talk about helium in tires. Back when I was young and broke I wanted cheaper insurance on the Triumph and needed to get it under 300 or 350 lbs [ don't remember which now] so I filled the tires with helium and got a weight slip. I got my cheap insurance.

Um...I don't know about that.

FWIW:
1 cubic foot of air @ 30 psi weighs 3.68 ounces
1 cubic foot of nitrogen @ 30 psi weighs 3.52 ounces
1 cubic foot of helium @ 30 psi weighs 0.5 ounces
So we're not talking much weight here.

Also, since oxygen leaks out of a tire faster than nitrogen eventually you'll have almost all nitrogen in your tire after you have aired it up a few times as the oxygen leaks and is replaced by 78% nitrogen with each top-off.

[Tailgate Tommy]

When I bought my 2012 Kia Sorento the service guys put nitrogen in for free. I guess I have a kind face  They said they needed to train a new tech on the installation procedure so they used my car as a training aide.

[Valkpilot]

The only pro I'll offer is legit, but negligible in practical application.

Nitrogen is non-reactive.  Oxygen is reactive and attacks the rubber.  In theory, you would be protecting the interior of the tire from dry-rot if you kept it filled with pure nitrogen.  However, the exterior is still exposed to oxygen and will degrade accordingly.  

[WintrSol]

Water is the real enemy, since it expands and contracts faster than either nitrogen or oxygen, contributes to corrosion, and freezes if it gets cold enough for it to condense. Nitrogen generators are just an easy way to get the water out. Personally, I'll spend about $30-$40 a year on drying cartridges for my air system; it not only fills the tires, but makes my air tools work better, with no water spraying around.

[Tx Bohemian]

Also, since oxygen leaks out of a tire faster than nitrogen eventually you'll have almost all nitrogen in your tire after you have aired it up a few times as the oxygen leaks and is replaced by 78% nitrogen with each top-off.

I thought about that too, so by now my '08 Pickup must have close to 90% nitrogen anyway!! And it was free!

Just changed the tires on my bike so I got awhile to go there...

[FLAVALK]

Only real benefit I see is that it helps protect the tire pressure indicators. Air from compressor without a dryer contains water which corrodes the innards of those expensive little suckers and they will eventually stop working   (ask me how I know). The last set of tires I bought at Costco, the tech said they always use nitrogen (no extra charge). So every time I need a tire rotation, I take it there and (supposedly) they top it off with nitrogen. Can't tell a bit of difference otherwise.

[RP#62]

As was mentioned before, transport category aircraft use nitrogen in their tires, but its not optional, its required by law.  With tire pressures above 100 psi there have been incidents where the oxygen in the tire reacted with the solvents used in curing the rubber and caused some tires to explode in the wheel well.  Not sure it would make much difference on relatively low pressure car/bike tires.

-RP

[Atl-Jerry]

I had a set of Avons put on 3-4 years ago and the tech came out from the back and had a conversation with the counter guy who asked me if I wanted nitrogen for $10 per tire.  I said no and the tech made a face, shrugged and returned to the garage;  I suspected he had already put in nitrogen.  I always check my tire pressure before I ride and usually have to fire up the compressor and add a few pounds about once a month.  After I had those tires put on I didn't have to add air for about 8 months.  Conclusion:  DamnedIfIKnow! 

[nogrey]

OK. Here's my take. Is nitrogen in your tires better than air? Simple answer is: Yes. Reason: larger molecules, dry, non-reactive.
If it were free, I'd take it hands down. Its not free so I use my air compressor and I check my tires before I ride.