The Republican Primary Debate

[3fan4life]

I liked Huckabee's answer about gays in the military:
The purpose of our military is not to preform social experiments, It's to kill people and break things.

I'm sure that was also said when black people were integrated in the military.

Some people just can't resist playing the race card.

Instead of throwing the race card around, wouldn't it be better to state actual facts ?

[3fan4life]

I like Rubio, but I think we need the Donald.  Flame suit on.

one thing I didn't mention in my reply/opinion last night was the fact that after Trump said he would not rule out running as a 3rd party, I believe it was Kasich who came out as said (and I'm paraphrasing here) "Trump has opened the minds of others and has said things other people are afraid to say". Kasich also went on to say something like "The things that Trump has said are on the minds of many people", so I have to acknowledge his (Kasich) openness regarding Trump's opinions and his ability to say what is on his mind and the mind of others but are afraid to say because of political correctness.

Trumps views on the PC issue was spot on, he has that leisure to be able to say what is on his mind, a kind of "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" mentality.

I also liked Rubio's view of having Hillary telling him on how to live pay check to pay check.

As for Christie, he is my governor, he is a typical no BS type personality and another who will "tell it like it is", for better or worse, as my father used to say "the truth hurts" and people have become afraid of the truth told to them. I liked the fact he knew exact numbers of our military, from the # of ships we have and need to the # of planes he feels we should have.

My primary concerns as a citizen are;

1) the strength of our military. are they armed properly and do we have what it takes to kick the donuts outta anyone who screws w/ us.

2) illegal immigrants. we need extreme measures to contain our boarders. I'm tired of illegal's coming here and committing their crimes as well as any terrorists that want access to our country.

I know we will never get the millions of illegals out that are here but the "real bad" ones have to go or face execution for the severe crimes they commit. And NO, illegals are not worthy of our justice system and the way it functions. They do not have the same rights as citizens of this country.

3) Our Vet's need better care, military personnel need more pay and better compensation for battle injuries.

4) Obama-care needs to go.

5) Foreign aid needs to stop to all those countries that do not like us and don't fall in line against world terrorism.

There's a bunch more but these are my top of the list items.

It appears that you and I can agree on a lot of things. 

[The emperor has no clothes]

I liked Huckabee's answer about gays in the military:
The purpose of our military is not to preform social experiments, It's to kill people and break things.

I'm sure that was also said when black people were integrated in the military.

Some people just can't resist playing the race card.

Instead of throwing the race card around, wouldn't it be better to state actual facts ?

I'm not sure how that is playing the race card ? It is a fact that blacks were segregated in the military. When they were integrated with white soldiers there was resistance and it was viewed as wrong by some. Those FACTS seem pretty self evident to me. If Ive got it wrong I'd be happy to have you explain it. 

[3fan4life]

I'm not sure how that is playing the race card ? It is a fact that blacks were segregated in the military. When they were integrated with white soldiers there was resistance and it was viewed as wrong by some. Those FACTS seem pretty self evident to me. If Ive got it wrong I'd be happy to have you explain it. 

What you originally said was:

I'm sure that was also said when black people were integrated in the military.

This implies that the integration of blacks into the military was also called a social experiment and called wrong.

While some people may have resisted the integration of a segregated military, you can not know for sure that it was referred to as a social experiment.

Comparing the induction of transgender persons to the integration of blacks is in essence playing the race card.

A comparison that I find ludicrous, ridiculous and unnecessary.

Additionally, it adds absolutely nothing to the original discussion.

      

As for the integration of blacks into the military, that wasn't a social experiment, it was social justice.

Blacks had long served in the military prior to integration.

They served proudly and honorably.

What they were was unfairly segregated from white soldiers.

The integration process had been long completed when I served in the military and I can tell you that from my standpoint it was complete success.  


I would have to go back and listen to a soundbite to be 100% certain but I'm fairly sure that Huckabee's comments were geared towards the integration of Transgender persons into the military not just Gay people.

I have no idea if you have ever served in the military or not.

If you haven't then it would be next to impossible for you to understand what it's like to live in the barracks.

If you have served then you should definitely understand how disruptive it would be for people who identify themselves as transgender to live with others in a barracks type environment.

I can't even begin to imagine the difficulties that this would impose in a basic training environment.






 

[The emperor has no clothes]

The post I responded to said he liked Huckabees answer to gays in the military. I nor bigguy said anything about transgender . I wasn't there when blacks were integrated so I don't know if it was called a social experiment. I do know it was a decision that involved our society and there were many against it as there are many against gays serving. That was my analogy. Nothing more. It doesn't really matter if I served or not does it ?

[Rams]

Even though the poll doesn't end for a couple of days, I am finding the results interesting.

Trump - 6 (11.8%)
Bush - 0 (0%)
Christie - 0 (0%)
Carson - 12 (23.5%)
Paul - 2 (3.9%)
Huckabee - 7 (13.7%)
Rubio - 7 (13.7%)
Cruz - 3 (5.9%)
Walker - 1 (2%)
Kasich - 3 (5.9%)
None of the above - 10 (19.6%)

The guy that impressed me most seems to also have impressed the majority responding.   Noting that the "None of the above" category is close but still behind, I have to suggest that those votes would most likely go to a democrat candidate.    Realizing this board is not representative of a cross section of the US but, it does at least speak well for a Republican nominee.    Not a prediction but, it does give me hope.

[Rams]

It doesn't really matter if I served or not does it ?

As a matter of fact, it does to those who have served.    Doesn't mean you aren't welcome to your opinion, just that it doesn't carry as much weight if you haven't.

Posted by someone that served honorably in both the US Marines and the US Army.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I find it interesting also. For one Ben Carson seems very bright but soft spoken. I'm surprised this would garner him support. But second I'm very surprised at the strong support Trump still seems to have. Especially with his comments about Megan Kelly.

[The emperor has no clothes]

It doesn't really matter if I served or not does it ?

As a matter of fact, it does to those who have served.    Doesn't mean you aren't welcome to your opinion, just that it doesn't carry as much weight if you haven't.

Posted by someone that served honorably in both the US Marines and the US Army.

Not that I need anymore weight. I served 78-82 in the USN. 

[Rams]

It doesn't really matter if I served or not does it ?

As a matter of fact, it does to those who have served.    Doesn't mean you aren't welcome to your opinion, just that it doesn't carry as much weight if you haven't.

Posted by someone that served honorably in both the US Marines and the US Army.

Not that I need anymore weight. I served 78-82 in the USN. 

From one Veteran to another, thanks for your service.   

[The emperor has no clothes]

It doesn't really matter if I served or not does it ?

As a matter of fact, it does to those who have served.    Doesn't mean you aren't welcome to your opinion, just that it doesn't carry as much weight if you haven't.

Posted by someone that served honorably in both the US Marines and the US Army.

Not that I need anymore weight. I served 78-82 in the USN. 

From one Veteran to another, thanks for your service.   

Thank You  It always feels strange to have someone thank me for serving in the Navy. I am very proud of my country and proud that I joined the Navy. But to be honest I did it for purely selfish reasons. I wanted to see the rest of the world and I thought it was a good way to do that.

[Rams]

It doesn't really matter if I served or not does it ?

As a matter of fact, it does to those who have served.    Doesn't mean you aren't welcome to your opinion, just that it doesn't carry as much weight if you haven't.

Posted by someone that served honorably in both the US Marines and the US Army.

Not that I need anymore weight. I served 78-82 in the USN. 

From one Veteran to another, thanks for your service.   

Thank You  It always feels strange to have someone thank me for serving in the Navy. I am very proud of my country and proud that I joined the Navy. But to be honest I did it for purely selfish reasons. I wanted to see the rest of the world and I thought it was a good way to do that.

If you had served earlier and witnessed some volunteering, some being drafted and others fleeing to Canada and the crap those returning Viet Nam veterans faced, you'd have a different perspective.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Don't get me wrong. I'm very proud I did serve. I didn't do anything to warrant any pats on the back or anything. Just floated around with a bunch of other guys. I'm sure you are right, if I had been in Nam I'm sure I would think differently. 

[Patrick]

and the crap those returning Viet Nam veterans faced, you'd have a different perspective.
end quote





 

[Karen]

Even though the poll doesn't end for a couple of days, I am finding the results interesting.

Trump - 6 (11.8%)
Bush - 0 (0%)
Christie - 0 (0%)
Carson - 12 (23.5%)
Paul - 2 (3.9%)
Huckabee - 7 (13.7%)
Rubio - 7 (13.7%)
Cruz - 3 (5.9%)
Walker - 1 (2%)
Kasich - 3 (5.9%)
None of the above - 10 (19.6%)

The guy that impressed me most seems to also have impressed the majority responding.   Noting that the "None of the above" category is close but still behind, I have to suggest that those votes would most likely go to a democrat candidate.    Realizing this board is not representative of a cross section of the US but, it does at least speak well for a Republican nominee.    Not a prediction but, it does give me hope.

Remember that Carly was not on this list... other than that, I share your impression.

[Rams]

Even though the poll doesn't end for a couple of days, I am finding the results interesting.

Trump - 6 (11.8%)
Bush - 0 (0%)
Christie - 0 (0%)
Carson - 12 (23.5%)
Paul - 2 (3.9%)
Huckabee - 7 (13.7%)
Rubio - 7 (13.7%)
Cruz - 3 (5.9%)
Walker - 1 (2%)
Kasich - 3 (5.9%)
None of the above - 10 (19.6%)

The guy that impressed me most seems to also have impressed the majority responding.   Noting that the "None of the above" category is close but still behind, I have to suggest that those votes would most likely go to a democrat candidate.    Realizing this board is not representative of a cross section of the US but, it does at least speak well for a Republican nominee.    Not a prediction but, it does give me hope.

Remember that Carly was not on this list... other than that, I share your impression.

Karen,
You are correct, I omitted all the candidates that participated in the early debate.    Maybe I shouldn't have but, honestly I lost track of them and since they were all in the lowest polling numbers bracket, I didn't think to include them.    I would have to suggest based on what I've read and heard that Carly would have done decently to well on this poll.     Hopefully, I'll get to add her on the next one.   This assumes she makes it to the top ten or so who are allowed on the stage.   

[3fan4life]

It doesn't really matter if I served or not does it ?

It matters "only" from the point of understanding the intricacies of military life.

I didn't mean to imply any type of personal attack based on whether you served or not.

If you served then we are in effect brothers in arms.

If you didn't, I take no issue with that.

Military service is not everyone's cup of tea.
  
Which I believe is the primary argument against openly gay and transgender people serving in the military.

Typically these groups are about being "different".

The most important thing that a soldier must do is to "assimilate their self into the collective".

When you are a soldier it is no longer about "you", it is about mission, team and following orders.

If someone who is gay or transgender can do this, then their service should be as welcomed and accepted as anyone else's.

If they are only there to disrupt the system ("Rock the Boat") then they should be dishonorably discharged and face all of the repercussions that entails.

The purpose of our military is to protect the citizens of this country from all enemies, Foreign and Domestic.

ANYTHING that impedes or disrupts that purpose should NEVER be allowed.  

[3fan4life]

It doesn't really matter if I served or not does it ?

As a matter of fact, it does to those who have served.    Doesn't mean you aren't welcome to your opinion, just that it doesn't carry as much weight if you haven't.

Posted by someone that served honorably in both the US Marines and the US Army.

Not that I need anymore weight. I served 78-82 in the USN. 

There's Nothing wrong with serving in the Navy. 

My Father and several Uncles served in the Navy during WWII.

I looked at the Navy before I enlisted.

I went into the Army instead, but I have always thought that I would have loved carrier duty.

However, the idea of submarine duty was one of the things that led me to choose the Army instead.

[The emperor has no clothes]

It doesn't really matter if I served or not does it ?

It matters "only" from the point of understanding the intricacies of military life.

I didn't mean to imply any type of personal attack based on whether you served or not.

If you served then we are in effect brothers in arms.

If you didn't, I take no issue with that.

Military service is not everyone's cup of tea.
  
Which I believe is the primary argument against openly gay and transgender people serving in the military.

Typically these groups are about being "different".

The most important thing that a soldier must do is to "assimilate their self into the collective".

When you are a soldier it is no longer about "you", it is about mission, team and following orders.

If someone who is gay or transgender can do this, then their service should be as welcomed and accepted as anyone else's.

If they are only there to disrupt the system ("Rock the Boat") then they should be dishonorably discharged and face all of the repercussions that entails.

The purpose of our military is to protect the citizens of this country from all enemies, Foreign and Domestic.

ANYTHING that impedes or disrupts that purpose should NEVER be allowed.  

I agree with everything you just said. And that was the point I was trying to get across with my post. There was a time that blacks were deemed not to be of value integrated into the military. Time has shown this not to be the case. There have been plenty of gay people that have served admirably already. I imagine time will show they are no worse a soldier, sailor, airman than you or I. If a gay person is willing to volunteer and fight for our country they already have my respect for that. I'm sure there were gays in your service with you and with me and we just didn't know it.

[Valker]

Since the draft ended, military service is not as "automatically" included in anything. My generation, it was the exception to NOT serve.

[3fan4life]

I agree with everything you just said. And that was the point I was trying to get across with my post. There was a time that blacks were deemed not to be of value integrated into the military. Time has shown this not to be the case. There have been plenty of gay people that have served admirably already. I imagine time will show they are no worse a soldier, sailor, airman than you or I. If a gay person is willing to volunteer and fight for our country they already have my respect for that. I'm sure there were gays in your service with you and with me and we just didn't know it.

I'm fairly certain that some of the guys that I served with were gay.

Maybe times have changed since my service in the 1980's.

To me it would just be too weird sharing a shower room with a guy that you knew liked to have sex with other guys.

In my day it just seemed better not to know, hence the policy of, "Don't ask don't tell" making sense.

I'm not sure how today's generation feels about this, but human nature doesn't usually change much.


If you think about it the fact that we didn't know who was or who wasn't gay, speaks volumes for the ability of homosexuals to assimilate themselves into military life.


I just cannot fathom how transgenders can assimilate themselves into military life.

 

[bigguy]

I'm afraid we're hijacking this thread which is about the debate, I do want to toss out a mea culpa. I did say the the question was about gays in the military, when it was actually about paying for transgender procedure for active duty military personnel under military insurance. I believe there was mention of don't ask don't tell in the prefatory statement to the actual question.
I offer the suggestion that we move this discussion to another thread if there are those who want to continue this line. I won't be participating because I don't feel qualified, not having served.*



* I graduated high school in 1975 and promptly hauled my happy butt to a recruiting station where I discovered that the military was engaged in the largest drawdown of forces since the end of WWII discharging almost a quarter of a million troops in the preceding and following years. It turns out that a B average student from the 18 person graduating class of Gillett High School wasn't particularly in demand by either the Army or the Navy. The Navy had no offer for me. The best the Army would do was six year enlistment with no MOS. My plan never was to make a career of the service. I just felt that a two year enlistment was a civic responsibility. I wasn't willing to commit to six years in a service that didn't particularly want me. I can't shake the conviction that not having served, I haven't completely contributed to the country. I certainly appreciate those of you who have served and offer a heart felt thank you.

[Rams]

Big Guy,
Thanks for your comments.

In reference to the "Candidate who most impressed you".

Looking at the polling numbers, it's reasonable to assume that Carson did a pretty good job.   I wish Carly had been on the same stage but, she wasn't.   I fully expect her to be there next time.  

But, let's assume that at least half of those who responded to the question and didn't pick Carson, would move their vote to Carson if he were the nominee and the others were out of the running.   (This may be an overstatement but, if the other option is Hildebeast, I feel fairly certain that number would hold up.    If the "None of the Above" are Hildebeast subscribers, then it is pretty obvious that she wouldn't stand a chance against Ben.   Of course, this only reflects the polling on this forum.   There are folks out there that may not see things the way this forum does.    I mean really, there are some confused folks out there still riding V twins.  

[The emperor has no clothes]

Big Guy,
Thanks for your comments.

In reference to the "Candidate who most impressed you".

Looking at the polling numbers, it's reasonable to assume that Carson did a pretty good job.   I wish Carly had been on the same stage but, she wasn't.   I fully expect her to be there next time.   

But, let's assume that at least half of those who responded to the question and didn't pick Carson, would move their vote to Carson if he were the nominee and the others were out of the running.   (This may be an overstatement but, if the other option is Hildebeast, I feel fairly certain that number would hold up.    If the "None of the Above" are Hildebeast subscribers, then it is pretty obvious that she wouldn't stand a chance against Ben.   Of course, this only reflects the polling on this forum.   There are folks out there that may not see things the way this forum does.    I mean really, there are some confused folks out there still riding V twins.   

To draw conclusions about a national vote from a sample of Valkyrie riders would be a stretch at best. Also to assume the none of the above vote are Clinton supporters is a leap also.

[BF]

It's way too early to pick a winner, but when it comes down to the end, I have to vote for the person that Putin and ISIS is gonna be afraid of. 

I don't know who that is yet. 

[Jess from VA]

Any person in that group (or the early group) (or any two of them in a full ticket) would be vastly superior to the alternative from the hammer and sickle party.  

I like some better than others, but the key to the whole deal is not getting who you want, but rather getting a pair of nominees that can actually win a national election.   This must be the fundamental goal, and we must not forget it.

When I look at the debates and the people running, I keep reminding myself to pull for who can win, not whose policies or characters I like best.  Generally speaking, those I like best may not be electable.

[bigguy]

Any person in that group (or the early group) (or any two of them in a full ticket) would be vastly superior to the alternative from the hammer and sickle party.  

I like some better than others, but the key to the whole deal is not getting who you want, but rather getting a pair of nominees that can actually win a national election.   This must be the fundamental goal, and we must not forget it.

When I look at the debates and the people running, I keep reminding myself to pull for who can win, not whose policies or characters I like best.  Generally speaking, those I like best may not be electable.

[Rams]

Of course, this only reflects the polling on this forum.   There are folks out there that may not see things the way this forum does.    I mean really, there are some confused folks out there still riding V twins.   

To draw conclusions about a national vote from a sample of Valkyrie riders would be a stretch at best. Also to assume the none of the above vote are Clinton supporters is a leap also.

Which is precisely why I included the three sentences.   

[3fan4life]

I can't shake the conviction that not having served, I haven't completely contributed to the country.

There are many ways to serve your country, military service is but one of them.

Don't demean yourself over this, you tried and apparently military service just wasn't in the cards for you.

I am certain that you have contributed in many other ways.