Any military protocol experts out there ?

[bassman]

What is the proper protocol regarding a veteran saluting during a military funeral?  Father-in-law will be buried this weekend with a military funeral (honor guard, 21 gun salute, taps, flag presentation etc.) for his time served in the Pacific during WWII.  As a veteran myself (1965-1968) and not a retiree, is it proper to salute during any or all parts of the ceremonies and, if so, during which parts are permissible?  Don't want to do anything wrong, insult or offend anyone or detract from the ceremony but want to honor and show respect to my father-in-law and his service to this country.

Any insight or guidance would be appreciated.  TIA.

[Jess Tolbirt]

depends on the service type i believe,, i dont know the proper edicate but as a Navy man i stand at attention even in civilian clothes and do a salute when the deceased passes by, either covered or not.. I salute all military men when i pass them and if some one gets offended i will be glad to discuss their problems with them,, but as far as your question,  i will be looking for answers also,,

[czuch]

I'm not an expert. I did funeral detail in the Navy, and alot of Patriot Guard rides.
Salute to your hearts content. Its a show of respect.
At the end of the service, bring your hand up sharply, hold for a few seconds and lower it slowly down the button line of your shirt. Thats a funary salute.
Not painfully slow, just slower because its the final salute.
You can find experts and protocol on line.
Say his name often as a toast.

[WoodyFL]

Found this. Hope it helps.

http://www.193sow.ang.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123345259


Bob

[Valkjerk]

IMHO civilians are excused from improper salutes so I agree with both previous posts. I served with the USCG and buried my guys as far away as Canada. Usually when the deceased is in his/her final resting place such as grave, crypt or other, I give a standing funerary salute which by the way makes one helluva statement. I am trying to make arrangements to attend the interment of my cousin's burial at Arlington National Cemetary. Lotta red tape but his sister got it done. He was an exemplary American. Hope this helped, Bassman.

[Rams]

Found this. Hope it helps.

http://www.193sow.ang.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123345259


Bob

Precisely the correct response.   Thanks for posting that.

But, I seriously doubt anyone would complain if a hand salute was executed by a civilian.     
I know I wouldn't.   If anyone does, please let us know.    Thanks for your service.

[MarkT]

If you haven't seen this, any veteran watching this will be forgiven for busting out a tear or 2.  "Taking Chance."  The last trip home for a hero - and the respect accorded to him.  Well done.

It's in my library, think I'll watch it again tonight.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1019454/

[Moonshot_1]

At our PGR missions (I am a Ride Captain here in Iowa) I will inform the members that we will follow the commands of the Honor Guard as to  "Present Arms" and "Order Arms" Vets salute and Civilians (like me) Hand over heart and cap off.
Seems to work pretty well for knowing when to salute at a military funeral.
If holding the Flag as in a PGR Flag Line, the holding of The Flag would be considered the salute and no further salute is required. (But you respectfully can if you wish)

[The emperor has no clothes]

It's a very good question that I wish I'd have thought of before . When my dad died he was cremated and his ashes were buried with my sister that died at 2 days old. When the folded flag was presented to me the 2 young airmen saluted me. I instinctively saluted back. But afterwards I felt a little awkward because I wasn't sure if I pulled a faux pas. I'm glad to see I was ok.  

[old2soon]

Ex U S Navy and a P GR ride captain here in Missouri. I'm usually an hour early at the funeral home to stake flags and talk with the funeral director.  IF the FAMILY doesn't mind and the funeral director doesn't mind we generally go in after the service and before the casket is taken to the hearse and render a salute inside the funeral home. This is done at the discretion of each member present and NOT mandatory. We have ben thanked by the family either in person or via E-mail. We form up at the rear of the hearse and as soon as the casket is visible we come to attention and render another salute which we hold until the hearse door is closed. At the cemetery we usually follow the orders of the Military Honor Guard. After the Flag is presented to the family member and after the V F W or American Legion person presents their condolences I present a challenge coin or a framed certificate to the family member while talking to them with a knee on the ground. When I stand up to leave I come to attention an render a salute to the Flag and family member. I return o the Flag line and dismiss the members and ask them to roll the Flags away from the family. Most of my P G R mission members are Ex Military-better than 85%-and those who haven't served are familiar with our protocols. If you have P G R there and Military Honors follow their commands-I'm betting NO ONE will say a thing-I KNOW I wouldn't. Condolences for you and the family upon your loss. In a nutshell-show YOUR RESPECT the best way you know how. RIDE SAFE.

[da prez]

By all means , salute if you are a Veteran. You served , they served , show the M A X I M U M respect. It will be the last time.

                        da prez and a Veteran

[Jess from VA]

Technically, you don't salute if not in uniform and covered (except some branch's MP/SPs salute indoors, with no cover, while under arms).  Technically, if not covered and in uniform, you put hand over heart (and always at attention, in uniform or out).  Stand straight, shoulders back, chest out, arms down, fingers bent at the first knuckle, and aligned with the side seam of your trousers (nothing in your hands, no talking, no chewing gum).

But I disregard technically (since I am no longer subject to orders or the UCMJ).... if you are a veteran and actually know how to render a proper salute (I do), I salute in civies and uncovered because I view the hand over heart as something for women and kids and civilians.  IF you can perform a proper salute, you are welcome to do so if you are not a veteran (as far as I'm concerned), but if you cannot do it right, please put your hand over your heart.

As to when to salute, you follow the leadership and orders of the ceremony.  Colors or casket passing, flag raised or lowered (usually with bugle call), and orders for a hand salute (present/order arms) by all present.  

(Much like using three sets of forks, spoons and knives at a fancy dinner table, you follow the leader)

You salute the flag (pole).  If you can't see the flag from your position, you face and salute the man who can see the flag and is facing it.



 

[firea100]

Yep, those rules are what I'd use, I'm just a Navy Vet, but my company commander in bootcamp sat down one evening, in civvies and told us about a lot of those rules and rituals, it was like your dad or grandpa sitting you down and explaining things to you. I'll never forget that evening!

[MarkT]

Seriously folks.  Download the movie above, "Taking Chance" from Netfix or however you stream.  EXCELLENT examples of proper protocol for civilians and military showing respect for the departed.  If this movie doesn't touch you, well ya might have a cold heart.

[Willow]

What is the proper protocol regarding a veteran saluting during a military funeral?  Father-in-law will be buried this weekend with a military funeral (honor guard, 21 gun salute, taps, flag presentation etc.) for his time served in the Pacific during WWII.  As a veteran myself (1965-1968) and not a retiree, is it proper to salute during any or all parts of the ceremonies and, if so, during which parts are permissible?  Don't want to do anything wrong, insult or offend anyone or detract from the ceremony but want to honor and show respect to my father-in-law and his service to this country.

Any insight or guidance would be appreciated.  TIA.

Proper protocol governs how active military persons behave.  Respectful behavior is proper but how it manifests itself is not governed or binding for persons not currently on active duty.

Rendering a respectful salute to the memory of your father-in-law is an appropriate expression.

The tradition of the salute derives itself from the showing of one's weapon hand to another to demonstrate respect and that no combat threat was offered.

[Moonshot_1]

From Military.com

Law Now Allows Retirees and Vets to Salute Flag
Traditionally, members of the nation's veterans service organizations have rendered the hand-salute during the national anthem and at events involving the national flag only while wearing their organization’s official head-gear.
The National Defense Authorization Act of 2008 contained an amendment to allow un-uniformed servicemembers, military retirees, and veterans to render a hand salute during the hoisting, lowering, or passing of the U.S. flag.
A later amendment further authorized hand-salutes during the national anthem by veterans and out-of-uniform military personnel. This was included in the Defense Authorization Act of 2009, which President Bush signed on Oct. 14, 2008.
Here is the actual text from the law:
SEC. 595. MILITARY SALUTE FOR THE FLAG DURING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM
                        BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES NOT IN
                        UNIFORM AND BY VETERANS.
    Section 301(b)(1) of title 36, United States Code, is amended by
striking subparagraphs (A) through (C) and inserting the following new
subparagraphs:
                    ``(A) individuals in uniform should give the
                military salute at the first note of the anthem and
                maintain that position until the last note;
                    ``(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who
                are present but not in uniform may render the military
                salute in the manner provided for individuals in
                uniform; and
                    ``(C) all other persons present should face the flag
                and stand at attention with their right hand over the
                heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should
                remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it
                at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart;
Note: Part (C) applies to those not in the military and non-veterans. The phrase "men not in uniform" refers to civil service uniforms like police, fire fighters, and letter carriers -  non-veteran civil servants who might normally render a salute while in uniform.

[Jess from VA]

Well what do you know?

The technical rules I referred to above were those from my military time.  Things have changed some.  

Now when I salute, it's authorized.   

[bassman]

Gentlemen,

Thank you all for your valued and much appreciated comments and input on this unusual topic.  Your knowledge and backgrounds
continue to impress me.   

bassman

[Jess from VA]

Puts me in mind of my early days in the USAF.  At military installations, there are a few command staff cars wearing eagles, stars or flags that must be saluted.  (You are saluting the occupant, not the car, and the command plates are supposed to be removed if he's not in it.)  Some troops were missing this and the new wing commander was not happy about it, and word came down he would have some heads if it continued.  Also, we had another senior col that like to be saluted in any circumstance, and we were told when in doubt just salute, you'll not get in trouble.

So I am walking down the street and the wing commander is riding his bicycle down the street in uniform with his hat on looking right at me, so I come to attention and salute, and he returns it, then stops and gets off, and reads me the riot act for saluting.  Lt, don't you know you don't salute people on bicycles... if we must return your salute, we might fall off our bicycle?   No sir, I mean yes sir.

You can fly an F4 in hundreds of combat missions, but you might fall off your bicycle? (I didn't say out loud).  I still remember his full name, and that he was an Aggie (and that all Aggie jokes were suspended during his tenure).  

[The emperor has no clothes]

Puts me in mind of my early days in the USAF.  At military installations, there are a few command staff cars wearing eagles, stars or flags that must be saluted.  (You are saluting the occupant, not the car, and the command plates are supposed to be removed if he's not in it.)  Some troops were missing this and the new wing commander was not happy about it, and word came down he would have some heads if it continued.  Also, we had another senior col that like to be saluted in any circumstance, and we were told when in doubt just salute, you'll not get in trouble.

So I am walking down the street and the wing commander is riding his bicycle down the street in uniform with his hat on looking right at me, so I come to attention and salute, and he returns it, then stops and gets off, and reads me the riot act for saluting.  Lt, don't you know you don't salute people on bicycles... if we must return your salute, we might fall off our bicycle?   No sir, I mean yes sir.

You can fly an F4 in hundreds of combat missions, but you might fall off your bicycle? (I didn't say out loud).  I still remember his full name, and that he was an Aggie (and that all Aggie jokes were suspended during his tenure). 

There sure were a lot of officers in the Navy that were full of themselves. Maybe there still are. Thankfully I mostly had to deal with NCO's who could be assholes but didn't act like they were royalty and you were a peasant.

[Rams]

So I am walking down the street and the wing commander is riding his bicycle down the street in uniform with his hat on looking right at me, so I come to attention and salute, and he returns it, then stops and gets off, and reads me the riot act for saluting.  Lt, don't you know you don't salute people on bicycles... if we must return your salute, we might fall off our bicycle?   No sir, I mean yes sir.

I have a hard time believing the rules were different for the Air Force than the Marines or Army, the rules may have changed though.   As I remember a salute should always be rendered to a senior officer but, that officer is not required to return the salute if the situation were to cause some kind of hardship.   The officer is to acknowledge the salute.   This works both ways.   There are times when one of the two or both may have their hands full and, a salute would be cumbersome or inappropriate.   Having been both enlisted and an officer, one must understand such situations.     Quite often (as an officer), my subordinate enlisted men would catch me with a load of flight manuals, flight gear or other associated crap while I was crossing a parking lot headed to my vehicle with both hands/arms full.    They always made a point of making sure I saw their salute.    Always with big smiles on their faces, I always thought they were waiting on me.    The reverse is also true, an officer should not expect a soldier, sailor, Marine or airman to salute if doing so causes them an undue amount of issues.   A greeting is more than sufficient and appreciated.

[Jabba]

I had pretty good officers in the Sub Service. I worked for an A-Hole when I was on the surface side on Limited Duty when I broke my back.

Do your thing. No one will judge you that matters. Its all between you, your Father-In-Law, and God. No one else matters in this matter.

Jabba

[Jess from VA]

Ron, those are the same rules for USAF. 

The Col could have just nodded his head and kept on going.  He was a real stickler.  There was a rule for not saluting personnel on bicycles.... in a few weeks on active duty, I had never heard of it.

[old2soon]

In the Navy the one rule that stood out amongst all others was not saluting while uncovered-no hat. And saluting indoors only while covered and under arms. I was an Airedale in the Navy and also part time flight crew. After the R A G outfit and into the fleet things were a lot more relaxed when I went operational. I laid out what we as P G R here in Missouri do and I am comfortable with the protocol we have here. Honor your F I L the way YOU see fit and is best for YOU. RIDE SAFE.

[Skinhead]

Vets salute. 

[Willow]

I have a hard time believing the rules were different for the Air Force than the Marines or Army, ...

I don't know why.  I have no problem at all believing that.    

[Jess from VA]

I have a hard time believing the rules were different for the Air Force than the Marines or Army, ...

I don't know why.  I have no problem at all believing that.    

OK wise guy, the only notable difference between the services was that USAF allowed members in uniform to use an umbrella, which I was happy to take advantage of in dress uniform in a downpour (but never in BDUs). 

And never while visiting the Marines in Pendleton/Twenty-Nine Palms/Miramar/Quantico.... because it would no doubt cause laughter so hard, men would hurt themselves.   

[Willow]

I have a hard time believing the rules were different for the Air Force than the Marines or Army, ...

I don't know why.  I have no problem at all believing that.    

OK wise guy, the only notable difference between the services was that USAF allowed members in uniform to use an umbrella, which I was happy to take advantage of in dress uniform in a downpour (but never in BDUs). 

And never while visiting the Marines in Pendleton/Twenty-Nine Palms/Miramar/Quantico.... because it would no doubt cause laughter so hard, men would hurt themselves.   

   We'll have to agree to disagree.     I like you for who you choose to be and I appreciate that you sacrificed to serve our country.   

[Jess Tolbirt]

the Navy uncovers when entering a room the Army does not? i think that is one difference

[The emperor has no clothes]

the Navy uncovers when entering a room the Army does not? i think that is one difference

The Army leaves their hats on when entering a room ? I always suspected there was something barbaric about them. Not like us civilized sailors. 

[Skinhead]

The Army does not wear a cover indoors except when carrying a side arm.