AR Platform Rifles

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

I’m an old fashioned guy when it comes to rifles. Traditional wood and steel rifles just feel right in my hands. But, as gunsmith, I felt to maintain legitimacy I needed to learn the AR platform since it’s been the bestselling rifle in America for years. So, last year I built an AR in 450 Bushmaster for deer hunting.

It still doesn’t have the comfortable feel I’m used to but the inherit accuracy of AR platform rifles is astounding. My first deer and most of the following 17 were killed with a inline muzzle-loader I built from a kit. I glass bedded the stock, free floated the barrel, set the trigger pull at 3lbs and shot hundreds of rounds till I found the powder/bullet/sabot combination that would usually shoot one hole groups at 100 yards. I spent endless hours tweaking that rifle till I was sure it couldn't shoot any better.

Now to the AR.

Last week I pulled the scope, hand-guard and barrel off the AR to install a new rubber coated, longer and hopefully warmer hand-guard. I had to bore the hand-guard on the lathe slightly so it would fit over the gas block and maintain the free-floated barrel, replace the barrel nut, and, with the wife's help, torque the new barrel nut which standard barrel nut wrenches won't fit, install the hand-guard, then the scope. Also drilled and tapped the hand-guard for a sling stud. No way this rifle should have still been sighted in. No way it should have shot well without some tweaking. But, when I went to the range today, the AR was not only still sighted in but the four shots I fired at 100 yards all went into the same hole. These rifles are amazing, no wonder they are the bestselling rifles in the country.

Hard to believe it’s a 56 year-old design.

The paper tore a little bit when I pulled it off the staples in the rain but you get the idea. No tweaking, no bedding, no fussing, it just shoots!

[NJF6Cowboy]

Wow that's impressive. I could not do that placement from ten feet, never mind 100 yards.

[mrtappan]

I've always been an AK man myself but you can't deny the AR's accuracy. 

[solo1]

I've read that Bushmaster made the AR in 7.62 x39 for a short period and managed to get it to work.  Lots of problems. needed heavier firing pin strikes, feed problems, barrel problems, etc.  I find it interesting since I have lots of 7.62 x39  steel case ammo for my Russian SKS.  The 7.62 x39 round can be accurate and dependable in the AR platform but takes some real skills to get there from what I understand.

Taking nothing away from the AR. An excellent platform.  That and the Ruger 10/22 seem to be the standard in arms these days.

My sons both have Colt HB AR's. 

[mrtappan]

A friend had an AR10 in .308.  It seemed to work fine and that's a bigger round than the 7.62x39.  What always turned me off of the AR's were how they are completely "one handed" guns.  If you're left handed, you better have a left handed AR.  The AK's are easy to manipulate with either hand. 

[Jess from VA]

Good deal Mike.

Have no mercy on those jihadist suicidal moving roadblocks.

Went to the range the other day with a .45 acp 16" carbine (not an AR) to get on paper.  No usable bench, really cramped space, crowded with humans blazing away, with a clock running on how long I can use my spot.  Got the irons and red dot dialed in pretty good, but the little green laser an inch+ under and left of the bore is proving more difficult than you'd think.  It's not for minute of angle but for minute of bad guy. But I have to go back and try again.  I long for the days there were places available to me I could set up outside by myself and take all day fiddling around.

The little unit on the forward vertical grip was mainly for a light (which works great), but I paid a bit more for the light and laser combo, just because I could and wanted to try one out.  Having an aiming device that far off axis is a challenge to dial in.  Understanding the geometry, it comes up from low left, crosses the bore line somewhere at some distance, then keeps on going high right.  

The firearm itself works like champ without hiccup, and takes Glock 21 mags; 13s and 28-30s).  And definitely beats a handgun for putting everything in one jagged hole (at self defense distance) as fast as you can pull the trigger.  Getting all three aiming devices to hit the same jagged hole, at the center of a target, is a new challenge for me.

Also tried out my new Howard Leight Impact sport electronic muffs.  I could hear the range officer yelling at folks for being unsafe.  I suppose this is a good thing, but irritating.   

[Serk]

If you prefer 30 caliber ballistics but want a reliable AR platform, give a 300 AAC Blackout a good hard look. It also can be made VERY quiet in a still effective subsonic round.

7.62x39 AR's are plentiful and out there, I've built a few of them. You need special magazines and a longer firing pin/different bolt but they can be pretty reliable as well, and that ammo is still relatively inexpensive.

I too was an AK guy and loathed ARs until I really got to know the platform. Most of the problems of Vietnam have been corrected, and if you're the type of person that cleans your firearms, you should have no problems from a well put together AR platform in the reliability department. The accuracy is just so much better than an AK. (Don't get me wrong, love my AKs too, but they're just such totally different beasts.)

My newest obsession is stamp collecting. Got my first 2 silencers a few weeks ago and 2 more are waiting on Big Brother to say I'm allowed to have 'em. Shooting an AR (in 5.56, 308, 300 Blackout and 7.62x39 so far) without hearing protection on, being able to chat with your buddies, etc is SO nice!

[Marinakorp]

Good deal Mike.

Have no mercy on those jihadist suicidal moving roadblocks.

Went to the range the other day with a .45 acp 16" carbine (not an AR) to get on paper.  No usable bench, really cramped space, crowded with humans blazing away, with a clock running on how long I can use my spot.  Got the irons and red dot dialed in pretty good, but the little green laser an inch+ under and left of the bore is proving more difficult than you'd think.  It's not for minute of angle but for minute of bad guy. But I have to go back and try again.  I long for the days there were places available to me I could set up outside by myself and take all day fiddling around.

The little unit on the forward vertical grip was mainly for a light (which works great), but I paid a bit more for the light and laser combo, just because I could and wanted to try one out.  Having an aiming device that far off axis is a challenge to dial in.  Understanding the geometry, it comes up from low left, crosses the bore line somewhere at some distance, then keeps on going high right.  

The firearm itself works like champ without hiccup, and takes Glock 21 mags; 13s and 28-30s).  And definitely beats a handgun for putting everything in one jagged hole (at self defense distance) as fast as you can pull the trigger.  Getting all three aiming devices to hit the same jagged hole, at the center of a target, is a new challenge for me.

Also tried out my new Howard Leight Impact sport electronic muffs.  I could hear the range officer yelling at folks for being unsafe.  I suppose this is a good thing, but irritating.   

Getting all 3 dialed in to one hole will not serve a useful purpose. As you state, at that distance, they all converge and further out, they cross lines...so unless the BG is EXACTLY at that distance, the Laser is not as useful as you would like...

If the two (iron and Red Dot) are dialed in to the same hole... dial the laser to be low and left the EXACT measurement they are from the bore...

The laser will be reasonably accurate for a point and shoot from the hip perspective (closer and further from your sight in distance)... be within the area needed (knowing the actual hit is high and right a little) and the more finesse sighting will be dead on.


Unless the laser is in direct line with the bore... this is always the challenge

.02

[Jess from VA]

That's a pretty good assessment Mk.

dial the laser to be low and left the EXACT measurement they are from the bore..

.... and that is a very good idea.  

This carbine is set up to be home defense at close ranges (in or around the house).  The red dot is primary (and great for aging trifocal eyes), the irons for backup, and the laser more for fun (but who knows in the dark, though in my suburbia or house there is almost never true pitch dark).  

I read green was brighter than red in daylight, and that is true, but in daylight I like REAL sights.  Just for experiment, I tried the green (without light) on momentary at night in the house, and it almost provides enough light to see what's going on with white walls everywhere (with perfect night vision, in a house you know like the back of your hand).  Not enough to tell friend from foe (but friends breaking in your house at night happens so rarely).  And the momentary green laser does not destroy your night vision or give you away like a blazing weapon light.  So it adds some additional utility.

What is disconcerting is to shoulder up and move, looking through your red dot that you know is dead on, push the laser momentary, and it is somewhere else (though close).  

The Crimson Trace grips on short bbl revolvers (4" or under) is very close to the bore, easy to dial in, and really much more utility (in the dark) than this thing on my forward grip (which used up all my rail, so I had to stick it on the grip).  Again, the light was the important thing and works like a champ, the laser combo just because I could.

With a lifetime of using iron sights and cross hairs on long guns, these new (to me) bolt-ons with tiny switches actually require some practice and thought to make them reliably work for you.  

[MarkT]

I had an AR set up as battle rifle; had a red dot, laser, and BUIS.  I let some novices handle it, unloaded of course.  Every one of them had to use all three sight systems at once.  Idiots.  The laser was activated by a pressure pad strategically located where your fingertips fall on the forearm. That rifle is of course swimming with the fishes with most of my other guns...

[fudgie]

What always turned me off of the AR's were how they are completely "one handed" guns.  If you're left handed, you better have a left handed AR.  The AK's are easy to manipulate with either hand. 

They are?  ???  Dad, me and my brother are left handed shooters and dads AR is fine with us. I have one I bought a couple yrs ago when "Obama was going to ban them" that I haven't shot and still has the tags on it.  I prefer right handed guns esp handguns.

[Jess Tolbirt]

i sure wish i could find the place the boat sank...

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Good deal Mike.

Have no mercy on those jihadist suicidal moving roadblocks.

Went to the range the other day with a .45 acp 16" carbine (not an AR) to get on paper.  No usable bench, really cramped space, crowded with humans blazing away, with a clock running on how long I can use my spot.  Got the irons and red dot dialed in pretty good, but the little green laser an inch+ under and left of the bore is proving more difficult than you'd think.  It's not for minute of angle but for minute of bad guy. But I have to go back and try again.  I long for the days there were places available to me I could set up outside by myself and take all day fiddling around.

The little unit on the forward vertical grip was mainly for a light (which works great), but I paid a bit more for the light and laser combo, just because I could and wanted to try one out.  Having an aiming device that far off axis is a challenge to dial in.  Understanding the geometry, it comes up from low left, crosses the bore line somewhere at some distance, then keeps on going high right.  

The firearm itself works like champ without hiccup, and takes Glock 21 mags; 13s and 28-30s).  And definitely beats a handgun for putting everything in one jagged hole (at self defense distance) as fast as you can pull the trigger.  Getting all three aiming devices to hit the same jagged hole, at the center of a target, is a new challenge for me.

Also tried out my new Howard Leight Impact sport electronic muffs.  I could hear the range officer yelling at folks for being unsafe.  I suppose this is a good thing, but irritating.   

Move North my friend. I was the only shooter (actually the only person) at the conservation club I shoot at. Costs me about $60 bucks a year for a key to the gate and I can mushroom hunt and fish there in addition to shooting. Also, I know an FFL holder here who would make sure you no longer pay retail for your new firearms.  I recently got a trust started and filled out a form 1 online to build my first suppressor for this same deer gun. I don't expect it to be quiet, I just expect to keep the hearing damage to a minimum when I'm shooting it from a blind.

I wish you wouldn't remind me that I don't have a pistol caliber carbine. You know how weak I am! 

[MarkT]

Good deal Mike.

Have no mercy on those jihadist suicidal moving roadblocks.

Went to the range the other day with a .45 acp 16" carbine (not an AR) to get on paper.  No usable bench, really cramped space, crowded with humans blazing away, with a clock running on how long I can use my spot.  Got the irons and red dot dialed in pretty good, but the little green laser an inch+ under and left of the bore is proving more difficult than you'd think.  It's not for minute of angle but for minute of bad guy. But I have to go back and try again.  I long for the days there were places available to me I could set up outside by myself and take all day fiddling around.

The little unit on the forward vertical grip was mainly for a light (which works great), but I paid a bit more for the light and laser combo, just because I could and wanted to try one out.  Having an aiming device that far off axis is a challenge to dial in.  Understanding the geometry, it comes up from low left, crosses the bore line somewhere at some distance, then keeps on going high right.  

The firearm itself works like champ without hiccup, and takes Glock 21 mags; 13s and 28-30s).  And definitely beats a handgun for putting everything in one jagged hole (at self defense distance) as fast as you can pull the trigger.  Getting all three aiming devices to hit the same jagged hole, at the center of a target, is a new challenge for me.

Also tried out my new Howard Leight Impact sport electronic muffs.  I could hear the range officer yelling at folks for being unsafe.  I suppose this is a good thing, but irritating.    

Move North my friend. I was the only shooter (actually the only person) at the conservation club I shoot at. Costs me about $60 bucks a year for a key to the gate and I can mushroom hunt and fish there in addition to shooting. Also, I know an FFL holder here who would make sure you no longer pay retail for your new firearms.   I recently got a trust started and filled out a form 1 online to build my first suppressor for this same deer gun. I don't expect it to be quiet, I just expect to keep the hearing damage to a minimum when I'm shooting it from a blind.

I wish you wouldn't remind me that I don't have a pistol caliber carbine. You know how weak I am!  

Mike, if you can find a Ruger .44mag carbine, I'm thinkin that's just about the perfect pistol carbine.  It's the carbine the 10/22 was modeled after.  It's been out of production for some time but I'd bet you can find one.  I still have mine - pretty sure it's Shotgun Joe approved as it's only 5 rounds, tube mag.  I put a 1.5X scope on mine - this was before the advent of red dots.

Yep.  There's a couple of them on gunbroker, one at $549 now with a day left.  That one looks rough though.

[Jess from VA]

Well Mike, I'm as far North as I'll ever be (save visiting family up in MI).

All I really need to do is go West or South, or anywhere away from suburban life really to be able to shoot out in the country.  There are places I could go, but loading up my cage and driving a long way from home never seems appealing (though I'm happy to ride my bike in those directions all the time).

I did live in Valpo IN, but that was a long time back in '59-'62 (and I wasn't allowed to play with real firearms back then).  

I'd been looking at 9mm and .45 carbines for a long time, when all of a sudden a Kriss Vector came up with a bunch of extras at 1/3 off new..... and it gave me an irresistible impulse.  Mind you a third off still ended up being the most I ever paid for anything new or used, but you can't take it with you, and Social Security paid for it..... which I found amusing (thanks Mr. G).  There certainly are a number of cheaper choices, even including a 9mm AR (complete or upper).   .45 beats 9mm, but when we add a 16" bbl, either will get it done, and one gets it done a lot cheaper than the other.  And none of them need to be real tack drivers, they just need to be real reliable.

But the heart wants what the heart wants.

I never pay retail, and I may never buy new again.  One thing about suburbia, the local gun boards have pages and pages (volumes really) of used, of about anything you can even think of.  

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Good deal Mike.

Have no mercy on those jihadist suicidal moving roadblocks.

Went to the range the other day with a .45 acp 16" carbine (not an AR) to get on paper.  No usable bench, really cramped space, crowded with humans blazing away, with a clock running on how long I can use my spot.  Got the irons and red dot dialed in pretty good, but the little green laser an inch+ under and left of the bore is proving more difficult than you'd think.  It's not for minute of angle but for minute of bad guy. But I have to go back and try again.  I long for the days there were places available to me I could set up outside by myself and take all day fiddling around.

The little unit on the forward vertical grip was mainly for a light (which works great), but I paid a bit more for the light and laser combo, just because I could and wanted to try one out.  Having an aiming device that far off axis is a challenge to dial in.  Understanding the geometry, it comes up from low left, crosses the bore line somewhere at some distance, then keeps on going high right.  

The firearm itself works like champ without hiccup, and takes Glock 21 mags; 13s and 28-30s).  And definitely beats a handgun for putting everything in one jagged hole (at self defense distance) as fast as you can pull the trigger.  Getting all three aiming devices to hit the same jagged hole, at the center of a target, is a new challenge for me.

Also tried out my new Howard Leight Impact sport electronic muffs.  I could hear the range officer yelling at folks for being unsafe.  I suppose this is a good thing, but irritating.    

Move North my friend. I was the only shooter (actually the only person) at the conservation club I shoot at. Costs me about $60 bucks a year for a key to the gate and I can mushroom hunt and fish there in addition to shooting. Also, I know an FFL holder here who would make sure you no longer pay retail for your new firearms.   I recently got a trust started and filled out a form 1 online to build my first suppressor for this same deer gun. I don't expect it to be quiet, I just expect to keep the hearing damage to a minimum when I'm shooting it from a blind.

I wish you wouldn't remind me that I don't have a pistol caliber carbine. You know how weak I am!  

Mike, if you can find a Ruger .44mag carbine, I'm thinkin that's just about the perfect pistol carbine.  It's the carbine the 10/22 was modeled after.  It's been out of production for some time but I'd bet you can find one.  I still have mine - pretty sure it's Shotgun Joe approved as it's only 5 rounds, tube mag.  I put a 1.5X scope on mine - this was before the advent of red dots.

Yep.  There's a couple of them on gunbroker, one at $549 now with a day left.  That one looks rough though.

Many thanks for the heads up my friend. I've wanted one of those for years but if I buy another firearm for myself in the next couple of months I'll be sleeping in my shop! 

[solo1]

I'm gonna chime in now with my latest, a carbine in .40 cal.  We took it to the range and with a red dot scope , and out of the box,  ran 10 to 20 rounds all touching at 25 yards, no hiccups and varied ammo.

Yes it's a High Point!!!   American Rifleman had a good review on it and it seems to bear that out. I never thought I'd buy a High Point. Its blowback action keeps things simple but adds to the weight.

I'm sold on it, it's kinda crude looking but works great and no worry about scratches either.

Much, much cheaper than Kel Tec 2000 but bulkier.  However, my experience with the Kel Tec keeps me from considering any of their products. My opinion only. Won't argue.

[Serk]

Not AR related but just general showing off my new toys:

GSG 1911-22 with a SilencerCo Sparrow can on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6xxLfW2cII

Savage .22 bolt gun with that same can on it. It's hard to convey just how quiet that 22 is in person. The sound of it hitting a tin can is louder than it being shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDw_2kpwY3U

Next time I'll try to get some video of my AR's with cans on them too...

[Jess from VA]

Very cool.     Thanks for sharing.

For any future video, please do at least a couple shots hitting nothing (with the mic behind the muzzle/shooter).

Both are still louder than my uncanned 10/22 with Aguilla Super Colibri.... course, that is a LOT slower and only accurate and effective on varmints at pretty close range.  Might be interesting to try a few of those thru the GSG, just from a how quiet can I make it point of view.  We are warned to avoid Super Colibri in rifle bbls, but I have never had a single hang up in my 18" Ruger (on my fifth case).

So is eight months about par for the stamp collector?

[Gavin_Sons]

Ruger has a 44 mag bolt action I got the chance to shoot tonight. Awesome little gun, very accurate, almost beats my lever action.

[Serk]

Very cool.     Thanks for sharing.

For any future video, please do at least a couple shots hitting nothing (with the mic behind the muzzle/shooter).

Both are still louder than my uncanned 10/22 with Aguilla Super Colibri.... course, that is a LOT slower and only accurate and effective on varmints at pretty close range.  Might be interesting to try a few of those thru the GSG, just from a how quiet can I make it point of view.  We are warned to avoid Super Colibri in rifle bbls, but I have never had a single hang up in my 18" Ruger (on my fifth case).

So is eight months about par for the stamp collector?

Believe it or not but the subsonic regular .22 rounds with the can are about on par with the Aguila Super Colibri rounds without the can. I've got a few bricks of the Colibri rounds too (Primer only). They may or may not be very efficient at Grackle control in suburbia. I do need to do some better videos, I wasn't even gonna do those but my buddy (The one talking mostly) insisted. That was a stop at my range literally on our drive home from picking my suppressors up.

The wait has been all over the place for stamps, 2 years ago it was well over a year but our friends at the ATF have ramped up their inspector staff, those were just under 4 and a half months from submission to stamps in hand. I'm expecting my next 2 sometime around Christmas (Unintentionally perfect timing )

[Jess from VA]

I was unaware anyone had friends at ATF.   

I have never wanted to be on those particular lists, and could not afford the BAR of my dreams in any event.  But I've always thought about .22's (rifle and pistol) with suppressors.  And a pristine Walther PP in .32, though that would take some special work.   

[Serk]

I was unaware anyone had friends at ATF.   

I have never wanted to be on those particular lists, and could not afford the BAR of my dreams in any event.  But I've always thought about .22's (rifle and pistol) with suppressors.  And a pristine Walther PP in .32, though that would take some special work.   

Yup, I avoided dipping my toes into the NFA waters for the same reasons for many years but I realized I was already on "The List" from having a CHL, FFL03, life member of NRA, GOA and TSRA not to mention any 4473's I'd filled out and had been sent in from FFL's that went outta business over the years. As my triplets are getting close to old enough to start shooting, I figured some .22 suppressors would be an invaluable aid in marksmanship training, being able to safely shoot without hearing protection and give instruction.

I'm sure you know this, but you can get one silencer and move it from weapon to weapon, so you can get a single .22 can and use it on .22 rifles and pistols.

[Jess from VA]

Yeah, I've pretty much reached the same conclusion on being on some kind of list, after 40+ years of transactions (and 1000 humble opinions on public forums). 

And I've actually been eyeballing Savage 22 bolts and acutriggers.

And I seem to recall needing some sort of trust so these things can be transferred to family.  (Crock)

[Serk]

Yeah, I've pretty much reached the same conclusion on being on some kind of list, after 40+ years of transactions (and 1000 humble opinions on public forums). 

And I've actually been eyeballing Savage 22 bolts and acutriggers.

And I seem to recall needing some sort of trust so these things can be transferred to family.  (Crock)

...if only you knew a lawyer that could easily draw up the trust paperwork for you...

(And even if you're not comfortable dabbling in that branch of law, a good trust drawn up by an attorney that knows their stuff on NFA trusts should be around $200 or so.)

(The trust does more than that for you, I'll splain the process if you want (And if we haven't threadjacked too much) but a trust is definitely the way to go on NFA transfers.

Oh, and that Savage 22 with the accutrigger and stock threaded barrel is one of my favorite guns now, very quiet, very accurate and just made to be supressed...

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

I agree concerning trusts being the way to go. You only need one trust for any number of nfa items and it streamlines the process greatly. If you are building a suppressor then you can apply for your stamp entirely online if you have a trust, at least in Indiana.

The horse is already out of the barn for me but there is no reason we should have to suffer hearing damage when hunting. Although I don't normally feel the recoil or the sting in my ears when there is fur in front of my muzzle that doesn't mean neither happened. I started the process for a stamp near the end of June. Really hoping I get it back in time to get it built and tested before gun season comes in.

[solo1]

interesting discussion about silencers.  For years silencers were reminders of assassins in the movies.

I was out to the range awhile back and a shooter had a silencer on a .308 bolt action.  Very quiet, probably less than a .22.

Prices on silencers are too rich for me.  However, I can sure see the advantage if you shoot competitively.  I'll just keep using my Dillon muffs with built in electronics.  The ONLY problem with them is my ears sweat in hot weather. 

[Marinakorp]

interesting discussion about silencers.  For years silencers were reminders of assassins in the movies.

I was out to the range awhile back and a shooter had a silencer on a .308 bolt action.  Very quiet, probably less than a .22.

Prices on silencers are too rich for me.  However, I can sure see the advantage if you shoot competitively.  I'll just keep using my Dillon muffs with built in electronics.  The ONLY problem with them is my ears sweat in hot weather. 

and in an emergency situation...the ears may not be right next to the rifle for myself... or others in the group (my family, late at night, etc) may not have ears on when I need to access my rifle...

A suppressor is a safety device, and contrary to popular belief, they are not "SILENCER's" - they only reduce the sound by approx. 20-30 (or so) decibels - equivalent to a good set of ear muffs.

At least that is what I told my ex-wife's attorney in the divorce proceedings as to why I had such a "DANGEROUS" and "ILLEGAL" device in the house that she needed to make sure was disposed of properly, she had "friends" in the NRA and know that they re illegal... blah blah blah..... sheesh.

I said her that if she needed more information to contact the nice folks at the Department of Justice for more information regarding NFA items before wasting my time, her clients money, my lawyers time on frivolous matters. If compelled by a court order, I would produce the tax stamp....but not unless ordered to do so by a Judge and not a 400.00 an hour ambulance chaser...and since you (she - the lawyer) wanted them disposed of immediately, as you thought that they were an illegal item - wouldn't that make you complicit in an illegal action as you didn't report the illegal and dangerous items to the authorities - if you believed them to be illegal?

I never heard another word about any items in my safe again...

[solo1]

In an emergency situation I sure as hell wouldn't be worrying about ear protection. Neither do the LEO's

Ok they are suppressors.  Case closed.  Go for it!

[Serk]

Since the can of worms was opened on the "Clip vs Magazine" terminology of suppressor vs. silencer:

"Suppressor" is the technical term, they don't fully silence anything, however "silencer" is the legal term, so many people use the terms interchangeably.

Interesting factoid (To me at least) Hiram Percy Maxim, the grandson of Hiram Stevens Maxim who invented the Maxim Gun, made the first gun suppressor.

Teddy Roosevelt was evidently a good customer of his too.

He also made the first car silencer or, as we call them today, muffler.

[Jess from VA]

I have since hung my electronic muffs next to my go-to, middle-of-the-night firearm(s).  Not really to protect hearing, but slapped on and cranked up, you can suddenly hear what the hell is going on downstairs much better than with bare ears.  And if you squeeze one off, you haven't destroyed your hearing for the rest of the fight. Of course, this presumes there is time.

I don't need to hear range commands, and don't compete.  

Don't really see a downside on this.  Big ones can interfere with a shoulder weapon, and can cost a fortune.

[Marinakorp]

Wasn't trying to open a can of worm on terminology... just what I said to the ex wifes atty.


don't care if you call it a muffler, silencer, suppressor, quieting dood dad at the end of the bangy thingy....

She was trying to make the point that "why do I need a silencer" - as in only nefarious people need to have a quiet weapon - as in the movies.

I provided guidance that they were not silent, and equivalent to a good set of ear muffs... it was a safety device, as well as being considerate of the neighbors.... because I'm such a caring and compassionate human being... and to piss off for even suggesting otherwise.

sorry if panties got tied in a bunch.

[solo1]

Speaking as the Devil's advocate, take no offense.

We have a gun ordinance in our town. No discharge of a firearm EXCEPT in self protection or protection of others and property. It also included bows and pellet guns which were being used recklessly. I crafted that ordinance because we had a dipshit who was firing a 30 06 in his backyard, target practice but no backstop.  There is a provision for having a range which meets safety regs.

Like the news about polycopters (drones if you use the news media bs). The 'copters have a great potential but, sooner or later, someone will screw up badly enough with one that there will be a hue and cry for laws.

Suppressor, silencers, cans, or whatever that you call them, also have a great potential in less fatigue and going easier on the ears. BUT sooner or later, there will be criminal acts done with them (maybe gang bangers killing in almost silence with .22's) and then the pols and big city cops will come for them and slam through additional laws to 'correct' the problem.

Am i wrong or just being paranoid?  Keep in mind that I'm a Life member of the NRA, an instructor, and I've been active in the shooting sports for over 60 years. I'm for guns!!!!

[Serk]

sorry if panties got tied in a bunch.

My panties are completely untied, I was just 'splaining the differences in the terminology. It's all good. 

Am i wrong or just being paranoid?  Keep in mind that I'm a Life member of the NRA, an instructor, and I've been active in the shooting sports for over 60 years. I'm for guns!!!!

Anything is possible, but with all the hoops, expense and background checks one has to go through to get a legal silencer, and the ease with which someone with ill intent can make a perfectly functional illegal silencer with a Mag-Lite flashlight, or even an oil filter can, the odds of someone going through the legal hoops to get a real legal can and then using it in a criminal manner are rather low. Someone who was going to do something nefarious with one would more likely just make an illegal one, and since the very act of making it is already a federal crime, more laws obviously won't help that.

And yes, I'm sure some politician would still jump up and down about those evil silencers, even if the one used in a crime was an illegally manufactured one anyway but there's not a lot we can do about people making illegal ones.

[solo1]

Yeah, I'll go along with that.

Does the advantage of using a suppressor overcome the disadvantages of cost, hoops, and they know where it's at and what it's attached to.

I was briefly pricing one for my .308 Savage 10P scout rifle (threaded barrel already) and the price was really high for me, with retirement income.

[Serk]

Yeah, I'll go along with that.

Does the advantage of using a suppressor overcome the disadvantages of cost, hoops, and they know where it's at and what it's attached to.

I was briefly pricing one for my .308 Savage 10P scout rifle and the price was really high for me, with retirement income.

They know where it's at, but not what it's attached to. They know it's capable of a certain caliber, but you can go bigger and use smaller (A 30 caliber rifle can works quite well shooting .223 caliber, for instance) The host weapon is not registered in any way to the silencer, just the silencer itself it registered as an NFA item, what and how many host weapons you use is not tracked in any way.

And yeah, it's definitely an expensive game. There's the initial expense of the trust (~$200), then the automatic $200 tax stamp per suppressor, THEN the cost of the suppressor itself (For my rifle can I went with a SilencerCo Omega 7.62, which if you shop around can be found for around $850)

Heck, I don't even hunt, but it's still very worth it for me. To be able to have friends at my range (I have a private range I built on some land I own south of Dallas) sitting around, chatting, casually shooting without worrying about ear protection, without our ear muffs interfering with cheek weld, etc. Another thing that makes a difference for me since I lost my weight, full power rifles didn't  bother me, but not that it's skin on bone on my shoulder, .308 and above hurts. A suppressor reduces felt recoil on a centerfire rife by around 30% making my .308 Scout gun a LOT more pleasant to shoot.

So yeah, the suppressor is expensive, but it's very versatile too. That same 7.62 Omega can I got can be used on everything from a 300 Winchester Magnum to 308, 7.62x39, 300 Blackout, 5.56/.223 etc. etc. etc.

With a pistol can, the .45 one I've got on order can be used on .45, .40, 9mm even 300 Blackout subsonic.

And with the structure of the trust, these are items that will automatically pass to my kids with no additional paperwork or tax stamps required.

[MarkT]

And yes, I'm sure some politician would still jump up and down about those evil silencers, even if the one used in a crime was an illegally manufactured one anyway but there's not a lot we can do about people making illegal ones.

Obummer thinks he can do something about it.  Recently he tried to make posting tech info on the internet about guns illegal, under some lawyer's theory it's a "technical export". (There's DIY info on youtube and elsewhere on how to make your suppressors.)  I thought I posted about this with the link but couldn't find it.  Or the article at NRA-ILA.  Must have come in under one of the other gun groups.

OK here it is:  http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,80171.msg785319.html#msg785319



Let that bastard get away with this, and next you will go to jail for commenting on THIS thread.

[Serk]

And yes, I'm sure some politician would still jump up and down about those evil silencers, even if the one used in a crime was an illegally manufactured one anyway but there's not a lot we can do about people making illegal ones.

Obummer thinks he can do something about it.  Recently he tried to make posting tech info on the internet about guns illegal, under some lawyer's theory it's a "technical export". (There's DIY info on youtube and elsewhere on how to make your suppressors.)  I thought I posted about this with the link but couldn't find it.  Or the article at NRA-ILA.  Must have come in under one of the other gun groups.

Yup, familiar with that, they were trying to classify any technical discussion of firearm related material as falling under ITAR regulations restricting export.

They forgot one of the founding principals of the Internet though - The Internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.

Doesn't mean they won't try of course.

[Jess from VA]

I just read an article on suppressors, and the author said he could only find 2-3 instances where one had been used in crime (or illegally), in a decade.  Serk has it right, with all the hoops to jump through, and getting on a Federal list, who would really do this for criminal purposes?  Criminals don't even go to gun stores (FFLs) to buy guns.  

I think they cost more for more powerful calibers (bigger and more internal work).  Like anything else, you have to weigh the costs and time and trouble against advantages.  Having revisited all the requirements, I'm just not willing to go through that crap (setting up a trust first is the way to go).  Now if someone would sell me a select fire MP5 for $2k, I would change my mind.

Suppressor or not, before you squeeze the trigger anywhere at any time, you better know you are acting lawfully and with due care.

http://www.silencershop.com/how-to-buy-a-silencer

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/04/jim-barrett/idea-of-the-day-setting-up-an-nfa-gun-trust/  

[Marinakorp]

Speaking as the Devil's advocate, take no offense.

We have a gun ordinance in our town. No discharge of a firearm EXCEPT in self protection or protection of others and property. It also included bows and pellet guns which were being used recklessly. I crafted that ordinance because we had a dipshit who was firing a 30 06 in his backyard, target practice but no backstop.  There is a provision for having a range which meets safety regs.

Like the news about polycopters (drones if you use the news media bs). The 'copters have a great potential but, sooner or later, someone will screw up badly enough with one that there will be a hue and cry for laws.

Suppressor, silencers, cans, or whatever that you call them, also have a great potential in less fatigue and going easier on the ears. BUT sooner or later, there will be criminal acts done with them (maybe gang bangers killing in almost silence with .22's) and then the pols and big city cops will come for them and slam through additional laws to 'correct' the problem.

Am i wrong or just being paranoid?  Keep in mind that I'm a Life member of the NRA, an instructor, and I've been active in the shooting sports for over 60 years. I'm for guns!!!!

Gang bangers generally do not "apply" for the tax stamp... and unless the GB is caught in the act with the suppressor, not much is different (GSR patterns are different) about the wound... so how would they know?

GB's are generally not the "sniper" kind, and generally use less elegant methods. But I suppose it is possible.

You cant just "go buy one" .. you need to apply and wait a few months... you know, like the "common sense" laws the anti gunners are trying to pass!

Anyway, I digress...