More on Generators

[fudgie]

Never really needed a generator at my old house as I had secondary heat source. Now since I moved im gonna get one. I want one to be able to run the well, furnace/AC, and a few lights and plugs. Been looking at a Generac or Raven 5000w models. Today at lowes there was a troybilt 6200 w one in my price range. Gonna hook up a diff disconnect(?) to my panel for it.
Looking for some input on the models or Watts.

[scooperhsd]

Well pump uses 220 V  ? Get a 7000w + sized unit.  most everything else will run on 120V.

what do you cook on ? If gas - you're golden - even if it uses 120v to spark on, you can use a match (or a grill lighter) to start it. If electric - consider getting one of those butane single burners and keep a supply of the butane bottles around.

I don't know if you'll be able to comfortably run the AC (and certainly not an electric dryer !)

Water heater - electric or gas / oil ? if electric - the typical tank will use about 4500 watts, and starting from "out of the well cold water" - will take about 1.5 - 2 hours to get 40 gallons to normal temperature. Larger will take longer.

In my 20 years in my house - I've 1 outage longer than 12 hours - when Raleigh had Hurricane Fran come through in '95. My power was out for about 24 hours. I was lucky - some people were out for 2-3 weeks.

I'd consider if you really need a generator. I have a kerosene space heater for heat and a couple of beer-making buckets that I fill up when there's something coming that might take the power down for a while. Swimming pool makes a fine source of water to flush toilets

[Joe Hummer]

Never really needed a generator at my old house as I had secondary heat source. Now since I moved im gonna get one. I want one to be able to run the well, furnace/AC, and a few lights and plugs. Been looking at a Generac or Raven 5000w models. Today at lowes there was a troybilt 6200 w one in my price range. Gonna hook up a diff disconnect(?) to my panel for it.
Looking for some input on the models or Watts.

Hey Brian,

Can't say what you truly need for your house without more information but I would get as big of a generator as you can afford.  Heat is going to be your big draw.  If you have electric heat or water heater, you need to know the wattage of that heat if you plan to run it.  Watts for 120/220VAC (single phase power) is Volts *Amps. Once you know heater watts, you can calculate amps required.  

As for hooking it into your house.  The right way is to put in a power transfer switch that disconnects the normal power from the source and connects the generator into the main breaker.  But...this isn't absolutely necessary.  I have taken a breaker for an electric dryer (I have a gas dryer) and back fed it to bring power into my breaker panel.  On the back of the house, I have a plug that I can plug my generator into that then ties into that breaker.  I just have to make sure to shut off the main breaker before connecting the generator...then keep an eye on my neighbors to see when power comes back on.  If I didn't open the main breaker, I could back feed the power network and electrocute an electrician trying to reconnect power to the neighborhood.  Not a good thing...

Depending on the size of the generator, you will need to limit how many things you have turned on at one time.  Remember, inrush (when you first turn something on) current is different that sustained current.  If possible...make sure that you do not turn everything on at the same time.  Either unplug it from the wall or close breakers to control what comes on when.  With a little practice, you will figure out what you can do when.  If you screw it up...you will probably trip the main breaker on the generator or shut the generator off.  No big deal either way.  

Hope this helps.  

Joe

[Serk]

...just don't buy one like I bought mine - In the middle of a ice storm where power had been out for a day already and was gonna be out for several more and I had to take whatever they had and be glad to get it...

(Which is appears you're not doing by shopping now! )

[BF]

 

Do you have natural gas to your house?  If you do, you might want to investigate a whole home natural gas generator.  When the lights go out, the gas doesn't....you still have a never ending source of natural gas to power your whole home generator.  

Virtually most any generator that your able to buy at your local Home Depot or Lowe's is never going to be big enough to live in your home when the lights go out.  

[Jersey mike]

I have a Generac 5500 and it works well, it worked for 2 weeks when Superstorm Sandy knocked out the power here, but after being through that, I wish I had the next size up. The Generac pulls easy, runs real well and isn't too loud.  

The key thing to using the generator is;

Have plenty of gas cans...I used almost 6 gallons a day, and that wasn't running full time. You need 6-7 5 gallon cans and a couple 2 gallon cans.

Also just run the generator when necessary. Let the fridge cycle on and off 3 or 4 times and run what ever else you need to at the same time, like laundry.

[BobB]

Your well pump motor will take 220 V three phase.  It will probably need it's own generator as you do not want to pull a 110 V leg off one of the phases to power other loads.  It will damage a very expensive motor down there.  I'm thinking two generators...

[MarkT]

Good advice from Joe.  Take a look at what Costco has in your neighborhood.  They have some good quality generators at good values.  I got mine from them some years ago for $500.  Now they have ones with more features (more power, elec start, multi fueling) for $600 or so.  Mine is about 7kW start, 6kW sustained.  It will run the entire house with a couple exceptions, by backfeeding through a 240 plug to the panel.  The place was built w/o a master breaker so I rewired and added a panel for a master breaker.  I don't run the hot tub or the electric water heater, or the shop compressor, but can run all else including the well, forced air gas heat, all lights, electric stove, A/V systems, office, laundry, window A/C, computers (I have UPS on them to massage the power - you can get some flux in the volts and Hz).  I can run all other power tools in the shop including MIG welders.  The water heater will holds it's temp for a long time - days even, if you use it sparingly. Have gas dryer.  For an extended outage, I would run the water heater when I could allow it to dominate the draw.  Like after lights out.

If you go to a 10kW system, you probably can run everything but the price goes up a LOT.  They also support things like auto-start, connecting to natural gas and so on.  Not worth it to me.  When I installed this system, power outages were frequent from our co-op power company - over 6X per year.  But they have fixed the infrastructure, now avg about twice a year.  and then, rarely more than 8 hours.

Features, watts delivered, convenience, against how frequent you need it and cost.  I have a good balance.  I can put the power back on within 10 minutes.  And I bought an LED nightlite, and hooked it into the grid below the meter but before the master breaker.  Brought that LED nite lite into the kitchen - when it's on, The power grid is up.  Don't have to ask the neighbors.
Oh, I keep seafoam in the gas and change it annually.  And Have 2 5-gal cans of gas on standby.  A tank will run about 12 hours depending on load. I modified the fuel line on the generator to make it easy to change the fuel, with a t-fitting and valve & hose.  Of course when you run it, always shut off the fuel to shut it down.

BTW - If you have an older vehicle - if you keep the tank pretty full, you can siphon out the gas to help with feeding the generator.  You need one the siphon hose will work on.  Otherwise if you store a lot of gasoline - you need to keep seafoam or the like in it if it gets over a month old, and change it out annually.  I don't keep a lot on hand because the incidents aren't too often.  But more in the winter.

I marked the panel with the breakers to throw when on generator - might be common sense but if you're having an electrically-challenged person throw the switches - good idea to mark them.  I can walk the wifey through the process over the cell phone (assuming it works) if I'm out of town but having the breakers marked means no thinking needed in the dark with a flashlight.

I replaced the loud muffler on mine with a much bigger muffler system - just to make it less obnoxious.  However much of the noise comes out of the generator.

Oh one more thing - having your own power - does a lot for peace of mind.  When you hear the reports of huge power outages usually from natural events like hurricanes or ice storms - and especially if you are rural, on a well, and need power for heat, water, refrigeration - it's worth it to be able to turn almost everything on when the neighbors are all dark.

[Bigwolf]

what do you cook on ? If gas - you're golden - even if it uses 120v to spark on, you can use a match (or a grill lighter) to start it. If electric - consider getting one of those butane single burners and keep a supply of the butane bottles around.

That used to be true with older model stoves.  Not true for gas stoves of the last decade or so.  These gas stoves have a main gas valve that remains closed unless the electric is connected to it.  Therefore, these stoves will not let gas to the burner unless they have power.

[Jess from VA]

To find out how much power you need, you need to get a clipboard and pen and do some calculating.

Generators are rated for surge (higher) and constant run (lower).  Refrigerators surge when they kick on, then go constant (like 420 surge/200 run). I'm not sure if anything else normally surges.  So you want your fridge(s), some but not too many lights, sump pump, maybe a TV and computor.  Most appliances list what wattage they need to run.  Add up the run and surge watts on the list of items you want to be able to run, and that is the size generator you need (going 2-500 watts over what you need is a good idea).  

You don't say if you have gas heat, dryer, stove.  Those don't count.  My gas furnace needs 110 for the blower, and that's easily covered.

Most backup gasoline home generators are not going to power anything 220, so central AC is out (but I have one window unit in the bedroom, and mine covers that too), 220 electric heat is out, 220 dryer is out.  No reason to be doing wash during power outage.

I refrain from using my microwave and coffee maker (or at least I used to, I got a bigger generator now).

Honda does make great generators (Yamaha too), but the prices triple.  But a number of non-Honda generators use a Honda motor, and that is what you want to find (I did).  They are only a little more expensive than Generac, Coleman, and other Harry Homeowner brands (few hundred, not two thousand).  The part of the generator that converts gas engine power to electric does not break (the motor does) and does not need to be Honda.

Bigger generators (5-7.5K watts) are not that much fun to start with a pull rope, especially when they only get used once or twice a year (even if you drain all the gas and the carb bowl after every use as you should).  Pulling your arm out of the socket sucks.  So does breaking your pull rope, whcih is easy to do after pulling it 30-40 times.  Fixing your pull rope in the dark also sucks.  So consider getting a battery start generator, and putting the battery on a full time battery tender.

You want a generator with an automatic low oil shut off.  They are air cooled (like a Harley), sit still, get hot, and may burn oil if run for days on end.  My new generator came with dino oil, but I put synthetic in it.  

I back power my 200 amp svs box on a 220 outdoor four prong twist plug wired in by some one who knew what he was doing.  Before that, I backpowered the house thru my 220 dryer plug, and it worked, but I am not a qualified electrician.

When I need to use it, I knock off the main, all 220 circuits, most of my 110 circuits, plug in and slowly bring my other 110 circuits up.

Here is the generator I got a few months ago to replace my aging and hard to start 5000W Coleman Vantage (notice it is powered by a Honda engine, but not made by Honda).  All my previous generators were on skids, having wheels and two wheel-barrow-like fold down handles makes moving it around MUCH easier.  This is about a hundred more than I paid.

I did a lot of shopping around for my new one.  I'm with Mark, Costco had the best values I could find.  Not a ton of choices, but I got just what I wanted for a decent price.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/PowerStroke-6-800-Watt-Gasoline-Powered-Electric-Start-Portable-Generator-with-Honda-GX390-Engine-PS906811P-H/204401587

[TallRider]

I used a 6500w generator during hurricane Charley her in FL. We are total electric. Hooked  220 line through dryer circuit breaker. Ran well, pool pump, well pump and every other thing electric except stove water heater and a/c. Inc refrigerater. Did this for several days. I believe about a week. Cooked with grill and microwave. No problems. I would check out harbor freight. I believe there generators run at fast idle like an RV generator on motor home. Most others run at full throttle. I have a small generator from them and this thing runs at fast idle and uses gal for 8, hrs. Very quiet. Very efficient.

[fudgie]

Thx guys.

Not sure about doing the back feed like most of you are doing. A few electricians I know say its dangerous.  ???

I have a propane furnace and propane water heater. Mostly the well (220) and furnace (110) is all I'll be concerned about this winter. I do have a little propane camp burner I can use to cook on. Had it for back up for a couple yrs. I do have 2 kerosene heaters in the barn I have yet to move to the new place yet.

Lowes has a pretty cool transfer switch set up I was planning on getting.   

Been lucky with power outages in the area so far, just a few hrs, but rather be prepared. Plus I could always take it to the SO's house or the homestead/farm if needed since its diff power companies.

Keep the tips comin. 

[Atl-Jerry]

I've been planning a generator installation at the retirement house for some time, installed a buried 120 gal propane tank last year.  I'm total electric except for a gas cook top, and have 2 AC units.  In south Ga AC is not a luxury, it's life support.   Will install a 20KW pad mount propane unit next year, leaning towards this model:

http://www.norwall.com/products/Generac-Guardian-20kW-Standby-Generator-NGLP-Single-Phase-Steel-Pre-Packaged-with-200-Amp-Service-Rated-ATS-6729?cid=placxy_feed&dfw_tracker=6439-6729&gclid=CL7x7eaa_ccCFdgagQodYKUBFQ

[Jess from VA]

Not sure about doing the back feed like most of you are doing.  A few electricians I know say its dangerous.

Well if you back feed a breaker box, every live circuit is on a breaker.  And remember, when backfeeding a breaker box, you are going to knock off any 220 circuits (and the main), and any other circuits you don't need before you plug juice into the house.  I never had a breaker pop.

But I have had the generator hickup or stall, and watched my computer/TV do a brown out (worrisome). But all that stuff is on double surge protectors and nothing ever fried.  That happens no matter how you bring the juice in the house, so surge protection for your electronics is a must.

The alternative is having to run an extension cord in through a door or window, then split off to different stuff/places, and that is no ideal setup.  I think a single heavy gauge 220 line from generator to box is safer than a spiderweb of 110 extensions running around the house.  

When I used the dryer plug, my 220 line came in the back storm and main doors and I worried about a racoon or possum wandering in even with the double storm door returns holding it shut. And most of my outages are in winter, so the heat was going out the cracked doors.  If you have a garage, a door still needs to be cracked open for exhaust.  Mine sits out in a shed with the door open.

The only dangerous thing I can see (so long as it is wired up correctly to the box) is forgetting to knock off the main, and backfeeding the power lines to a power company guy down the road working on the outage.  So don't forget.   Some have posted in the past about a way to set up your system so that can't happen, but I don't have it.  I also have a 220 double male 4-prong twist plug extension cord to bring juice from the generator to the outdoor plug feeding the breaker box, and obviously you plug to the generator last.

Mark brought up a good point about setting things up so your SO or other person can safely operate it.  If I'm not home I trust no one to run mine.  

[Cracker Jack]

Your well pump motor will take 220 V three phase.  It will probably need it's own generator as you do not want to pull a 110 V leg off one of the phases to power other loads.  It will damage a very expensive motor down there.  I'm thinking two generators...

In this part of the world (Alabama), no domestic appliances (including well pumps) are three phase. I seriously doubt it in other parts either. You can not buy a three phase generator at Costco, Lowes and such places. I've never seen 220/240 volt three phase service and I don't believe it exists. Three phase service is not normally available in rural locations.

Three phase is typically used in commercial/ industrial applications where larger equipment is needed.  

[Patrick]

Charts with the draw amounts of all appliances are available and are even in the generator section of the stores they sold at now.
Depending on what well pump you have will also determine what voltage it is and how much it'll draw.
What I found odd was how much the microwave draws, we wouldn't be using that during an outage.
If you're usually home then I just do the change over manually, but, if you're away a lot then maybe an 'automatic' gizmo would be best unless you have a good neighbor.
Actually I think just the purchase alone is the biggest deterrent against an outage, once you buy one the power will probably never go out.

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

Brian, can't say what your needs are and didn't have time to read all responses so sorry if repeating. I got  a 4000 watt just for basics to keep food cold. Have other sources for heat. The BIG thing is I saw it as something that was used infrequently and therefore didn't want a gas one that would sit and have carb problems when I needed it. Went with a propane unit. No carb clogging issues and propane is more readily available when there is an outage and safer, easier to transport. All just my opinion 

[MP]

Your well pump motor will take 220 V three phase.  It will probably need it's own generator as you do not want to pull a 110 V leg off one of the phases to power other loads.  It will damage a very expensive motor down there.  I'm thinking two generators...

In this part of the world (Alabama), no domestic appliances (including well pumps) are three phase. I seriously doubt it in other parts either. You can not buy a three phase generator at Costco, Lowes and such places. I've never seen 220/240 volt three phase service and I don't believe it exists. Three phase service is not normally available in rural locations.

Three phase is typically used in commercial/ industrial applications where larger equipment is needed.  

Same here in ND.  We are only single phase, except in towns.  I really doubt if the well is 3 phase.  Or anything else.  Most of the smaller generators are 120 v, you will need 240.

ALL electricians I know will say hooking up any way EXCEPT with a 3 way transfer switch is dangerous!  PLEASE use a transfer switch!  The life you save may be your lineman!

In some states it is also illegal to hookup anyway except with a transfer switch.  PLEASE do it right, and install that transfer switch!  Do not risk someones life to save a few bucks.

MP

[Hooter]

   Boy, I thought I was going to be the hillbilly here but I guess not. I kill the mains in the house and back feed as well right out of my garage thru my welder hookup into my house. I kill the breakers to certain area's of the house that I don't want on to feed  (not so important places) and have never had a problem. This way I don't run the full house, only what I need.
   My generator is quiet anyway but it runs in my garage. I can hardly hear it. Fuel cell is large enough that I only have to refuel about 1 a day at full use. someone said here about if you have nat gas to run it off of that. Good idea, my station is run like that. Don't have to ever worry about running out of fuel.

[MP]

   Boy, I thought I was going to be the hillbilly here but I guess not. I kill the mains in the house and back feed as well right out of my garage thru my welder hookup into my house. I kill the breakers to certain area's of the house that I don't want on to feed  (not so important places) and have never had a problem. This way I don't run the full house, only what I need.
   My generator is quiet anyway but it runs in my garage. I can hardly hear it. Fuel cell is large enough that I only have to refuel about 1 a day at full use. someone said here about if you have nat gas to run it off of that. Good idea, my station is run like that. Don't have to ever worry about running out of fuel.

Just pray that someone else does not accidentally throw the mains on, or you do by mistake. I am sure you have never had a problem.  It will work fine that way.  All it takes though is one screwup.  It will NOT be 120 volts you put out on the line.  The transformer will step up the voltage when back feeding.  You will be putting HIGH voltage out on those wires the linemen are working overtime to fix for you. Killing a lineman would be a major bummer.  All to save a few bucks.

Read here:  http://www.planetgenerators.com/transfer-switches-is-it-necessary-for-your-portable-generator/

To quote a small section:

Word of Law
Like everything else, transfer switches too have their pros and cons prompting a few to consider against installing this device. However, the law says that it is necessary to install a transfer switch in order to operate a portable generator. In fact, the National Electric Code has made it mandatory for a power connection to a home to have a transfer switch. Thus, if you are planning to get a portable generator for your residence, a power switch isn’t an option but a necessity by law. One just has to have it.

[Kep]

Hey Brian ..I take a few pics of my set-up and bring the to the DRUP this weekend and talk about it in person.The transfer switch I have is pretty easy to install and very safe when u have a power outage.

[Jess from VA]

I did a lot of reading up on propane because of ethanol gas and it's affect on small engines and problems storing it for any length of time.  I don't have any propane powered things in my house or a big tank.  And it takes more propane than gasoline to run a generator, about one third more.  

The problem I discovered is that little cold and frozen propane tanks can make the generator unreliable: it doesn't want to start or run.  Most all of my outages are in the winter, and I'd want to have 10 or more small tanks on hand, and there's no way I was going to keep them in the house to stay warm.  

I could have used natural gas but it was going to cost me thousands of dollars and jackhammering up a bunch of concrete to install.  If I had a lot of outages, I might have have paid the piper, but mine are pretty rare, and I still might sell and move.

I have a dozen gas stations nearby, and most are generator back-upped in power outages.  So I don't have to keep a lot of gas on had (and can tap two car tanks in an emergency).

This is a subject worth doing your homework on.  I really wanted propane, but it wasn't the best choice for me.

Mel, about 10 years ago I paid a pretty big price for a whole house heavy up, 100 amp fuse service to 200 amp breaker, a lot of rewiring house circuits, outdoor outlets, GFCIs, long conduit feed around to the back or the house instead of a big wire hung on my house, 220 to a deck hot tub, and 220 backup generator backfeed to the box.  They had to pull a permit.  They did not give me a 3-way transfer switch.  No one but me will ever touch my setup.

[Robert]

Back feeding is dangerous to everyone, some forget to turn off the mains into the house and can cause all kinds of problems including shocking or killing a line repair man. If you look on line you will find a panel interlock its mechanical and will not allow the generator to be hooked up unless the mains are off.
 
Getting gas for a generator is a pains if its a real situation since most gas stations in an emergency will be closed. Not to mention cans and transportation at a time when its already a pain just to live.

  Natural gas or LP gas is the best and most generators can and are designed to run on either. Its usually a simple switch to go from one to the other. A big LP tank will hold for quite a while but of course the best is natural gas. The conversion to run reg gas on most gensets is a carb and a throttle set up and not that hard to do either.


http://www.interlockkit.com/

[MarkT]

If I was a line repair man - I would for sure check the line was off even if it was supposed to be.  Would not trust my life to a potential screw-up or an "illegal" backfeed not happening.  I also would always use practices that assume the line is alive.  Accidents in pretty much all venues are the result of the sum of multiple errors - not just one.  Read postmortem reports in aviation to see the evidence of that (in aviation accidents).  Happens everywhere else too - just think about it.

[MP]

If I was a line repair man - I would for sure check the line was off even if it was supposed to be.  Would not trust my life to a potential screw-up or an "illegal" backfeed not happening.  I also would always use practices that assume the line is alive.  Accidents in pretty much all venues are the result of the sum of multiple errors - not just one.  Read postmortem reports in aviation to see the evidence of that (in aviation accidents).  Happens everywhere else too - just think about it.

Agreed.  It almost always takes multiple errors.  Line would be checked, but might turn breakers on after checked.  I know they treat them as hot, but, as mentioned, accidents happen.  If you do not back feed, that will eliminate ONE of those errors, correct?

Also, IT IS THE LAW in most places, to have a transfer switch. Or some other lock out that will not allow the line to back feed.  As Robert mentioned, there are lockouts that can be used for smaller generators.

We have three farmsteads here on our farm.  Three families.  We have two 15kw PTO generators, and a couple smaller ones gas powered.  We have full transfer switches on all three services.  Every winter, there are stories about linemen killed or injured due to back feeding.  Let's just help keep them safe.

A couple times we have been out of power for over a week. I have burned over 100 gal of diesel fuel a day to keep power going.  We need for houses, wells, keeping waterers for cattle heated to keep them flowing.  Makes one appreciate the power coop!

[Tx Bohemian]

I replaced the loud muffler on mine with a much bigger muffler system - just to make it less obnoxious.  However much of the noise comes out of the generator.

Could you expound on the muffler thing?

I bought a 5500/8500 generator, troy bilt I think, after our last hurricane a few years ago and, Thank God, so far I never had to use it for an emergency.
Every couple of months I put gas in it and run it for 15-20 minutes and it is noisy.  I can see where it would be irritating after a time, especially for the neighbors if they didn't have one.

It has a 10 HP b/s motor.

Did you just google "quieter generator mufflers"?

Or just had some laying around the house and experimented?



One thing I would add on all the talk about generators is that once you get one to make sure that not only the motor runs but be sure the outlets have power.
I heard a story of a guy that bought a generator, had it for a few years, and cranked it ever so often to make sure it ran. But when he needed it the generator didn't work! Bad connection or something.

I can see where that would really SUK!!

[Patrick]

For gasoline engines, I use 100LL and run the carburetor dry. If there is no fuel shut-off, its easy to install one.

[Varmintmist]

If I was a line repair man - I would for sure check the line was off even if it was supposed to be.  Would not trust my life to a potential screw-up or an "illegal" backfeed not happening.  I also would always use practices that assume the line is alive.  Accidents in pretty much all venues are the result of the sum of multiple errors - not just one.  Read postmortem reports in aviation to see the evidence of that (in aviation accidents).  Happens everywhere else too - just think about it.

Ever work storm damage for 4 days straight? You get a little punchy after the first 2 days even if you can get a nap or two. You might check the line and its good, until you pull it up and it makes contact 3-10 poles down. Its  not an error, its not a accident, it is the direct result of someone being negligent.

What is a step down transformer in reverse?

It is not "illegal" in quotes, it is illegal period. If they do check it and find voltage they will waste more time tracking it to the source, and then pull the meter. More of their time means that they have to be out longer, putting them at risk, and keeping people out of service longer that may be in a medical emergency. Good luck getting reinspected after the fines get paid.

Here, is a persons life worth the price of 4 bottles of scotch? http://www.electricgeneratordepot.com/reliance-controls-pro-tran-indoortransfer-switch-w-meters-inlet-max-watts-7500

.............
To fudgie;

The size you need depends entirely on your load. EX. The well is 220 and 480' deep. I need a gen that has about 8000 STARTING watts (different than the # on the gen) and it will run on about 5500. That means to run my well without damaging the pump, I need about a 6500w gen. with a 220 plug. Now stuff that doesn't have a motor doesn't need to be calculated for starting watts, and fridge freezer things will run off a pretty small gen. In my case I have a old 5K Onan welder generator that has 4 110 plugs. I just run cords to the fridges and freezers, go to the spring for water, and cook on the grill.

[Hooter]

   Boy, I thought I was going to be the hillbilly here but I guess not. I kill the mains in the house and back feed as well right out of my garage thru my welder hookup into my house. I kill the breakers to certain area's of the house that I don't want on to feed  (not so important places) and have never had a problem. This way I don't run the full house, only what I need.
   My generator is quiet anyway but it runs in my garage. I can hardly hear it. Fuel cell is large enough that I only have to refuel about 1 a day at full use. someone said here about if you have nat gas to run it off of that. Good idea, my station is run like that. Don't have to ever worry about running out of fuel.

Just pray that someone else does not accidentally throw the mains on, or you do by mistake. I am sure you have never had a problem.  It will work fine that way.  All it takes though is one screwup.  It will NOT be 120 volts you put out on the line.  The transformer will step up the voltage when back feeding.  You will be putting HIGH voltage out on those wires the linemen are working overtime to fix for you. Killing a lineman would be a major bummer.  All to save a few bucks.

Read here:  http://www.planetgenerators.com/transfer-switches-is-it-necessary-for-your-portable-generator/

To quote a small section:

Word of Law
Like everything else, transfer switches too have their pros and cons prompting a few to consider against installing this device. However, the law says that it is necessary to install a transfer switch in order to operate a portable generator. In fact, the National Electric Code has made it mandatory for a power connection to a home to have a transfer switch. Thus, if you are planning to get a portable generator for your residence, a power switch isn’t an option but a necessity by law. One just has to have it.

No one in the house but the wife and I. She won't go down to the basement even on a good day. The mains are ALWAYS THE FIRST TO BE SHUT DOWN AND LAST TO BE TURNED BACK ON. I have a friend that works for the power company and covers my area. He calls me when the power is restored to my area.

[Varmintmist]

One thing I would add on all the talk about generators is that once you get one to make sure that not only the motor runs but be sure the outlets have power.
I heard a story of a guy that bought a generator, had it for a few years, and cranked it ever so often to make sure it ran. But when he needed it the generator didn't work! Bad connection or something.

When you run your gen to exercise it, always plug a light in. Just running the engine will not keep the winding's up to snuff. You can flash your gen if it runs but doesnt make power, but it is eaiser just to run a trouble light on it when you run it.

[fudgie]

Heres the transfer switch I'll be getting. But it says up to 7500w. Wonder what happens if the gen is at higher watts? Really not wanting to back feed. I have to many friends at REMC. 
http://www.lowes.com/pd_182534-48019-30216+BRK_1z0x2n6__?productId=3131281&pl=1

Talked to my boss cause he has a gen we use on the job site on occasion. His is a old homelite 4000w and he says it runs his well with no problems. As far as a 3 phase well, are those the ones where you have to run a capacitor also? Did find one with good reviews online at harbor freight. Its a 8750 w peak for $600. Lot of good tips about electric start vs pull start. Have seen a lot of propane kits. I due use propane and wonder how to run it off my main tank. But thats further down the road.

[xman]

My generator is a 2000 watt sine wave inverter. The advantage is it's clean power that some thing need or run better on it. It's quiet and sips gas. It's only for the rare extended power outage. The only thing I need to run is the fridge and lights. My heat is a wood stove.  I can run the fridge alone, or most of the other 110v items in the house. No 220v appliances but I don't need them to run.

[Patrick]

It seems to me that all generators today of any size have a low amp 220 outlet.


As far as 3 phase, I'm not aware of any household water pump [or household appliances] that run on 3 phase. I'm not aware of any houses around with 3 phase. I have 3 phase equipment but no 3 phase service.

[MP]

It seems to me that all generators today of any size have a low amp 220 outlet.


As far as 3 phase, I'm not aware of any household water pump [or household appliances] that run on 3 phase. I'm not aware of any houses around with 3 phase. I have 3 phase equipment but no 3 phase service.

????

You have 3 phase equipment, but no 3 phase service?  How does that work?  You need 3 phase power to power 3 phase equipment, unless you use a converter.

MP

[fudgie]

It seems to me that all generators today of any size have a low amp 220 outlet.


As far as 3 phase, I'm not aware of any household water pump [or household appliances] that run on 3 phase. I'm not aware of any houses around with 3 phase. I have 3 phase equipment but no 3 phase service.

????

You have 3 phase equipment, but no 3 phase service?  How does that work?  You need 3 phase power to power 3 phase equipment, unless you use a converter.

MP

He 'has' the equipment just no power to run it lol 

[MarkT]

I replaced the loud muffler on mine with a much bigger muffler system - just to make it less obnoxious.  However much of the noise comes out of the generator.

Could you expound on the muffler thing?

I bought a 5500/8500 generator, troy bilt I think, after our last hurricane a few years ago and, Thank God, so far I never had to use it for an emergency.
Every couple of months I put gas in it and run it for 15-20 minutes and it is noisy.  I can see where it would be irritating after a time, especially for the neighbors if they didn't have one.

It has a 10 HP b/s motor.

Did you just google "quieter generator mufflers"?

Or just had some laying around the house and experimented?



One thing I would add on all the talk about generators is that once you get one to make sure that not only the motor runs but be sure the outlets have power.
I heard a story of a guy that bought a generator, had it for a few years, and cranked it ever so often to make sure it ran. But when he needed it the generator didn't work! Bad connection or something.

I can see where that would really SUK!!

Yeah.  had some laying around the house and experimented.

Just FYI - I build exhausts.  Over 1500 systems for Valkyries. I have an abundance of mufflers, some lightly used but won't be used again unless for art sculptures.  Might as well make the generator quiet.  Worked on the engine - then found the generator is also noisy.  Don't have a generator muffler.  Could put it in a cabinet with sound deadener, but it's out in the bike barn anyway; can't really hear it off the property.  the engine is pretty quiet with these 2 mufflers inline - one is a Honda Valk muffler.

[Cracker Jack]

It seems to me that all generators today of any size have a low amp 220 outlet.


As far as 3 phase, I'm not aware of any household water pump [or household appliances] that run on 3 phase. I'm not aware of any houses around with 3 phase. I have 3 phase equipment but no 3 phase service.

????

You have 3 phase equipment, but no 3 phase service?  How does that work?  You need 3 phase power to power 3 phase equipment, unless you use a converter.

MP

I'd like to know more about this "converter" of which you speak.

[MarkT]

If I was a line repair man - I would for sure check the line was off even if it was supposed to be.  Would not trust my life to a potential screw-up or an "illegal" backfeed not happening.  I also would always use practices that assume the line is alive.  Accidents in pretty much all venues are the result of the sum of multiple errors - not just one.  Read postmortem reports in aviation to see the evidence of that (in aviation accidents).  Happens everywhere else too - just think about it.

Ever work storm damage for 4 days straight? You get a little punchy after the first 2 days even if you can get a nap or two. You might check the line and its good, until you pull it up and it makes contact 3-10 poles down. Its  not an error, its not a accident, it is the direct result of someone being negligent.

What is a step down transformer in reverse?

It is not "illegal" in quotes, it is illegal period. If they do check it and find voltage they will waste more time tracking it to the source, and then pull the meter. More of their time means that they have to be out longer, putting them at risk, and keeping people out of service longer that may be in a medical emergency. Good luck getting reinspected after the fines get paid.

Here, is a persons life worth the price of 4 bottles of scotch? http://www.electricgeneratordepot.com/reliance-controls-pro-tran-indoortransfer-switch-w-meters-inlet-max-watts-7500

Good soap box.  So it's a touchy issue for you.  Whatever.  I'm not changing how I do it.  It's not just the cost of the switch.  It's also putting in a building where I don't want it for the generator to live in, next to the circuit panel. And a licensed contractor advised me to set it up this way - which is also how he powers his ranch when the grid is down. I told the power company what I was doing when I asked them to shut off the transformer for the day to install the master breaker - and they said nothing about not doing it. I'm not stupid and the main breaker goes off first, and back on last. I'm the guy who installed the main breaker panel. Know something about electric, having taught analog circuits in USAF Weapons Tech school.  I have a checklist and use it. So don't come work on the lines in my area if you think I will fry you.  Backfeeding into the grid would blow the breaker on this little generator immediately, if it tried to power the neighbors with all their lights still on.

[scooperhsd]

Hmm - the wife found this - might be worth considering -

http://eattomorrow.com/blog/2015/09/tesla-unveils-a-battery-to-power-your-home-completely-off-grid/

[MP]

It seems to me that all generators today of any size have a low amp 220 outlet.


As far as 3 phase, I'm not aware of any household water pump [or household appliances] that run on 3 phase. I'm not aware of any houses around with 3 phase. I have 3 phase equipment but no 3 phase service.

????

You have 3 phase equipment, but no 3 phase service?  How does that work?  You need 3 phase power to power 3 phase equipment, unless you use a converter.

MP

I'd like to know more about this "converter" of which you speak.

You can convert single phase to three phase with it.

https://www.americanrotary.com/?gclid=CLfJspO0_8cCFQ6paQodIycHzw