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Author Topic: Marine Court-Martialed for Displaying Bible Verse will go Before Military’s High  (Read 952 times)
Robert
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S Florida


« on: November 06, 2015, 03:59:30 AM »

Its copied to let all know what is happening in our military to religious freedom. This is reflective of governments attitude as well.

 LCpl Sterling’s case began over two years ago when, stationed at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, she noticed that other service members had placed various personal items in their workspaces. A devout Christian, Sterling decided to express herself as well, printing out the words of Isaiah 54:17: “No weapon formed against you shall prosper.” She posted these words in three different places around her personal workspace.

Before long, LCpl Sterling’s supervisor—who also happened to be her former drill instructor—ordered her to remove the Bible verse, using profanity to describe the verses in the process. When LCpl Sterling asked why, her supervisor said, “I don’t like the tone.” Sterling explained it was her First Amendment right to display the Bible verse and declined to take them down, also stating that no other person in the unit ever complained about the verse.

http://blog.libertyinstitute.org/2015/11/marine-court-martialed-for-displaying.html

https://www.libertyinstitute.org/sterling?

This is what needed to be torn down in 3 places and a court martial against


Sterling noted that other service members had personal items in their workspaces and asked why she couldn’t post the Bible verse. The supervisor said, “I don’t like the tone.”
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 02:14:51 PM by Robert » Logged

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FLAVALK
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Winter Springs, Florida


« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2015, 04:03:57 AM »

Its the world we live in and it sucks. I'll bet my paycheck that if it was a verse from the Koran, not a word would be said   Angry
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Live From Sunny Winter Springs Florida via Huntsville Alabama
Willow
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« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2015, 06:02:37 AM »

LCpl Sterling was not court martialed for displaying Bible verses.  She was charged with disobeying the order of her supervisor, a higher ranking Marine.

I agree that there was a wrong done LCpl Sterling by her supervisor, but LCpl Sterling appears to have been completely guilty of disobeying a lawful order.

There is an undercurrent within the military these days that allows discrimination against Christian members and that is not the way it should be.  This may be a case of when that discrimination was applied but it was not in the court martial.

We must be careful when we stand for right not to misrepresent.  The title of the article and this thread is misrepresenting.
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2015, 07:12:32 AM »

Its the world we live in and it sucks. I'll bet my paycheck that if it was a verse from the Koran, not a word would be said   Angry
I'll take that bet  Smiley
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Clayboy
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Cookeville Tennessee


« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2015, 07:26:58 AM »

What the hell are they fighting for if not freedom, which includes religious freedom?
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dreamaker
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Harrison Township, Michigan


« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2015, 07:45:44 AM »

Mikey Weinstein!!  This is the guy I keep tell everyone to keep an eye on, he is one of BO's main guys, and is low profile with allot of power. Most people has never heard of him.  From what I have read and watch discussions, concerning religious issues in the military, it all goes through him, and he appear to be the heart of it all. Check him out with an open mind, and judge for yourself.

http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/38272018.html
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3fan4life
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Any day that you ride is a good day!

Moneta, VA


« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2015, 10:24:08 AM »

We were warned about this kind of thing:


Quote
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the middle of wolves: be you therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will whip you in their synagogues; And you shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what you shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what you shall speak. For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you. And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.  Matt 10:16-22 NKJV
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3fan4life
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Moneta, VA


« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2015, 10:34:53 AM »

LCpl Sterling was not court martialed for displaying Bible verses.  She was charged with disobeying the order of her supervisor, a higher ranking Marine.

I agree that there was a wrong done LCpl Sterling by her supervisor, but LCpl Sterling appears to have been completely guilty of disobeying a lawful order.

There is an undercurrent within the military these days that allows discrimination against Christian members and that is not the way it should be.  This may be a case of when that discrimination was applied but it was not in the court martial.

We must be careful when we stand for right not to misrepresent.  The title of the article and this thread is misrepresenting.

Personally, I would challenge the "Lawfulness" of the Sgt's order. If others were allowed to have family photos and other personal items on display, then he was in the wrong to order her to remove the verse but allow others to keep their items on display. He should not be allowed to single her out because he didn't approve of the item's religious content.

If he told everyone to remove their personal items from the work place and she was the only one who failed to comply then she would be guilty of refusing to obey a lawful order.

I served in the US Army not the USMC but I do know that at the time of my service this wouldn't have happened. The values of our military are reflective of the values of our nation. It pains me GREATLY to see what has become of our countries' "Values" over the past 30 years.
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1 Corinthians 1:18

WilliamRS
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« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2015, 11:50:26 AM »

Its copied to let all know what is happening in our military to religious freedom. This is reflective of governments attitude as well.

 LCpl Sterling’s case began over two years ago when, stationed at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, she noticed that other service members had placed various personal items in their workspaces. A devout Christian, Sterling decided to express herself as well, printing out the words of Isaiah 54:17: “No weapon formed against you shall prosper.” She posted these words in three different places around her personal workspace.

Before long, LCpl Sterling’s supervisor—who also happened to be her former drill instructor—ordered her to remove the Bible verse, using profanity to describe the verses in the process. When LCpl Sterling asked why, her supervisor said, “I don’t like the tone.” Sterling explained it was her First Amendment right to display the Bible verse and declined to take them down, also stating that no other person in the unit ever complained about the verse.

http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2015/05/27/marine-monifa-sterling-bible-verse-court-case/28010365/


http://blog.libertyinstitute.org/2015/11/marine-court-martialed-for-displaying.html


she wasn't posting a 'bible verse' so much as she was using this verse (printed and posted in three different areas of her workspace) in a passive-aggressive manner.  There was some personallity clashes going on in her office when you read the full story about what went down.


"...Ultimately, Sterling was charged with violation of a lawful order and that, along with other low-level misconduct, led to her court-martial conviction and a sentence of reduction in rank to E-1 and a bad-conduct discharge.

In Sterling's first appeal, the Navy-Marine Corps Court of Appeals in February upheld the conviction. A military judge determined that the quotations, "could be interpreted as combative … [and] could easily be seen as contrary to good order and discipline," court records show..."


read the comments at this link:
http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2015/05/27/marine-monifa-sterling-bible-verse-court-case/28010365/
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 12:22:21 PM by WilliamRS » Logged
WilliamRS
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« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2015, 12:00:00 PM »

for those who want to read the actual result of her first appeal that upheld her conviction.  (rather than having it filtered )

https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/2784127/united-states-v-sterling/

"....    After receiving evidence and hearing argument, the military
judge found that the “orders were given because the workspace in
which the accused placed the signs was shared by at least one
other person[,] [t]hat other service members came to the
accused’s workspace for assistance at which time they could have
seen the signs. The court also finds that the signs, although
the verbiage . . . [was] biblical in nature, read something to
the effect of no weapon found [sic] against me shall prosper ...
which could easily be seen as contrary to good order and
discipline.” 18 Although these meager findings of fact fail to
illuminate why the military judge believed the signs verbiage
“could easily be seen as contrary to good order and
discipline[,]” we are able to glean from the record sufficient
information to affirm his ruling.
     First, the military judge found that the signs verbiage was
biblical in nature, that the desk was shared with another
Marine, and the signs were visible to other Marines who came to
the appellant’s desk for assistance. The implication is clear—
the junior Marine sharing the desk and the other Marines coming
to the desk for assistance would be exposed to biblical
quotations in the military workplace. It is not hard to imagine
the divisive impact to good order and discipline that may result
when a service member is compelled to work at a government desk
festooned with religious quotations, especially if that service
member does not share that religion. The risk that such
exposure could impact the morale or discipline of the command is
not slight. Maintaining discipline and morale in the military
work center could very well require that the work center remain
relatively free of divisive or contentious issues such as
personal beliefs, religion, politics, etc., and a command may
act preemptively to prevent this detrimental effect. To the
extent that is what the military judge determined to be the
case, we concur. 19...."


"...    Second, examination of this record indicates the existence
of a contentious relationship between the appellant and her
command, even prior to the charged misconduct. In fact, the
appellant testified that her purpose for placing the signs was
to encourage her during those difficult times and that her SSgt
ordered her to remove the signs because the SSgt didn’t “like
their tone.” 20 While locked in an antagonistic relationship with
her superiors--a relationship surely visible to other Marines in
the unit--placing visual reminders at her shared workspace that
“no weapon formed against me shall prosper” could certainly
undercut good order and discipline. When considered in context,
we find that the verbiage in these signs could be interpreted as
combative and agree with the military judge that the signs
placement in the shared workspace could therefore “easily be
seen as contrary to good order and discipline.” 21 For this
reason as well, the orders to remove the signs were lawful...."
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 12:06:11 PM by WilliamRS » Logged
Bighead
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Madison Alabama


« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2015, 12:08:40 PM »

Horse crap.
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Robert
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S Florida


« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2015, 02:13:11 PM »

Robert Bowdrie "Bowe" Bergdahl was not charged with desertion at the time he was recovered and we gave up 5 men in trade of him and the president stood behind him.

Yet one sentence placed in 3 places roughly 1 inch by 6 inches resulted in an instant court martial dishonorable discharge suspension of all pay and good recommendations.
  Lips Sealed Lips Sealed
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Willow
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« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2015, 03:06:09 PM »

Personally, I would challenge the "Lawfulness" of the Sgt's order. ...

Please note that I did agree that LCpl Sterling was treated poorly.

You must have knowledge regarding the legality of the orders that is foreign to me.  None of my experience in the USMC indicated that I needed to find an order fair before I obeyed it.  From the information I read I think the superior behaved in an assish manner.  It doesn't, by my understanding of military law, make the orders legally refuse-able.

For Robert:

Yes, the deserter should have been charged.

LCpl Sterling was not charged with the placement of a sentence.  She was charged with refusing to obey an order.  I'm fairly confident that the court martial was not instant.

We don't like it when people on the other side misrepresent the facts and situations to cause them to emphasize their own position.  We need to be careful not to do that for ourselves.   
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WilliamRS
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« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2015, 03:54:55 PM »

Robert Bowdrie "Bowe" Bergdahl was not charged with desertion at the time he was recovered and we gave up 5 men in trade of him and the president stood behind him.

Yet one sentence placed in 3 places roughly 1 inch by 6 inches resulted in an instant court martial dishonorable discharge suspension of all pay and good recommendations.
  Lips Sealed Lips Sealed

if you read her court martial you will see that she also refused to wear the proper uniform of the day  after being repeatly ordered to do so,  failed to perform her duties, failed to show up at the at a worksite after being ordered, and so on...this is not the soldier to pin your religious persecution fantasies on.
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Jess from VA
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No VA


« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2015, 04:00:29 PM »

I was taught lawful and unlawful orders in Jag school.  Extremes on either side are easy calls.  

I was also told that you refuse an order (on the basis that you believe it to be unlawful) at your EXTREME peril..... and you begin every inquiry from a starting position that the order is lawful, and work from there.

Sgt, go shoot all those prisoners.... is crystal clearly an unlawful order.

Take down those signs in your work space is not at all clearly an unlawful order.  Active duty military do not have the same full measure of 1st Amendment rights and protection that non-military have.  That it is a bible quote does not give it any more protection than any other speech.  Her quote, though vague, was somewhat combative/contrary in nature, it was not love your neighbor as yourself.  The judicial test in such a case is not some super high hurdle like compelling state interests.  The test is more like, was the order in reasonable furtherance of good order and discipline?  

This was not handled very well by either side, but I don't give her good odds on a successful appeal.

I am as unhappy about the apparent denigration of Christianity in the military as anyone, but this case does not seem to be very much about that issue at all.  If you are going to butt heads with your superior officer or NCO, you better choose your battle very carefully, and prepare for the consequences.  
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 04:02:55 PM by Jess from VA » Logged
Robert
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S Florida


« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2015, 04:05:29 PM »

Personally, I would challenge the "Lawfulness" of the Sgt's order. ...

Please note that I did agree that LCpl Sterling was treated poorly.


For Robert:

Yes, the deserter should have been charged.

LCpl Sterling was not charged with the placement of a sentence.  She was charged with refusing to obey an order.  I'm fairly confident that the court martial was not instant.

We don't like it when people on the other side misrepresent the facts and situations to cause them to emphasize their own position.  We need to be careful not to do that for ourselves.   

 "The next morning, Sterling found that the verses had been torn down and thrown in the trash. Rather than complaining, she simply reprinted the verses and put them back up. The next morning, she found the verses in the trash again. Soon after, Ms. Sterling was court-martialed." end quote.

As much as I can I check the facts, I guess you could say "soon" is not instant but it was good enough for me. Surely better than the months and reinstatement that Bergdahl was allowed before charges were finally brought. I also think a warning for not representing the facts was done without knowing the facts. Do you consider soon to be instant compared with months and also a comparison of the severity of charges? One was a deserter and even sided with the enemy one posted a sentence. 
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 04:08:30 PM by Robert » Logged

“Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don’t have time for all that.”
WilliamRS
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« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2015, 04:21:34 PM »

Personally, I would challenge the "Lawfulness" of the Sgt's order. ...

Please note that I did agree that LCpl Sterling was treated poorly.


For Robert:

Yes, the deserter should have been charged.

LCpl Sterling was not charged with the placement of a sentence.  She was charged with refusing to obey an order.  I'm fairly confident that the court martial was not instant.

We don't like it when people on the other side misrepresent the facts and situations to cause them to emphasize their own position.  We need to be careful not to do that for ourselves.   

 "The next morning, Sterling found that the verses had been torn down and thrown in the trash. Rather than complaining, she simply reprinted the verses and put them back up. The next morning, she found the verses in the trash again. Soon after, Ms. Sterling was court-martialed." end quote.

As much as I can I check the facts, I guess you could say "soon" is not instant but it was good enough for me. Surely better than the months and reinstatement that Bergdahl was allowed before charges were finally brought. I also think a warning for not representing the facts was done without knowing the facts. Do you consider soon to be instant compared with months and also a comparison of the severity of charges? One was a deserter and even sided with the enemy one posted a sentence. 


read the court martial document for a full picture of what was going on and why she was discharged. plastering her cubicle with that verse was the least of what she did.   she refused several orders from her sergeant and her major.  the marines are better off with her out of the service.

bergdahl has nothing to do with her case..
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 04:27:46 PM by WilliamRS » Logged
Robert
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Posts: 17398


S Florida


« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2015, 04:38:44 PM »

Robert Bowdrie "Bowe" Bergdahl was not charged with desertion at the time he was recovered and we gave up 5 men in trade of him and the president stood behind him.

Yet one sentence placed in 3 places roughly 1 inch by 6 inches resulted in an instant court martial dishonorable discharge suspension of all pay and good recommendations.
  Lips Sealed Lips Sealed

if you read her court martial you will see that she also refused to wear the proper uniform of the day  after being repeatedly ordered to do so,  failed to perform her duties, failed to show up at the at a work site after being ordered, and so on...this is not the soldier to pin your religious persecution fantasies on.

In August of 2013, the appellant was on limited duty for a
hip injury and wore a back brace and TENS unit during working
hours. 3 The medical documentation (chit) included a handwritten
note stating that “wearing charlies & TENS unit 4 will be
difficult, consider allowing her to not wear charlies

William I have not misstated the facts like you and was reprimanded, I wonder if you will get the same thing. You probably agree the action and cursing of the LCpl as she took down the verses


What I also find amazing is the court found the opposite of what courts have established as the separation of church and state in the ruling, in the justification in saying RFRA does not apply. One sentence below says it all.

"Incredibly, the appellate court said RFRA did not apply because sharing Bible verses does not constitute religious exercise as a “part of a religious system of belief.”


OK REALLY??   "so sharing Bible verses does not constitute religious exercise" So why cant we put up the 10 commandments in front of bldgs since is does not violate the separation of church and state?

I think one of her biggest mistakes was in self representation which she did.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 04:58:08 PM by Robert » Logged

“Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don’t have time for all that.”
DirtyDan
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Posts: 3450


Kingman Arizona, from NJ


?
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2015, 08:39:09 AM »

Lawfulness ???

really for this

ok then EVERYONE joining the military needs law school

makes me want to read Shakespeare

or write a new book on obfuscating white collared blood sucking control freeks

dan
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Do it while you can. I did.... it my way
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