hey gun guys....

[musclehead]

I'm planning on building an AR 15 or a M 4, I am researching parts and ran across this gem thought I would share.

grrrr computer acting up here at work, google Anderson Rifles, on the front page there is a link for 'tests and reviews' at the top is a link for a 5,000 round test with no oil.

I watched it last night, the had a local officer there to shoot for them, by the end of it he had both his index and middle finger heavily wrapped up (blisters?)

they shot 300 rounds, broke it down cleaned it with soap and water dried it off re assembled it and fired another 4700 rounds without a drop of oil for the entire test. they have a 'nano' coating they call RF85 that provides the lubrication without oil.

at the end there were no failures of the weapon or the ammo, then they cleaned it "Anderson style" by tossing the rifle in a dirty creek. the gent waded out to it picked it up shook the water out of it and rapid fired another 30 rounds.

[Serk]

I believe this is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G6VRFcditk

I'll admit I have an visceral reaction to any claims of a lube-free rifle, especially an AR15, after so many American GIs were told their M16 was so advanced they didn't need to clean or lube it, and were killed when their dirty weapons failed them.

[MarkT]

Gotta take Anderson's claims with some salt along with Serk.  I've seen reports that some motor oils are just the ticket for Stoner's design.  Seems they have properties that are appropriate - adhering to metal.  Particularly synthetics like Mobil1.  I slathered my AR15's bolts in it.  Betcha they still are lubed up, on the bottom of Lake Michigan.  I also installed an Adams Arms piston kit in one of my ARs, so it could run cleaner and drier like an AK.

Awesome!  We have guns and motor oil in one post!

[musclehead]

I believe this is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G6VRFcditk

I'll admit I have an visceral reaction to any claims of a lube-free rifle, especially an AR15, after so many American GIs were told their M16 was so advanced they didn't need to clean or lube it, and were killed when their dirty weapons failed them.

the weapon tested was an M4, I'm such a newb with these guns I have no idea what the difference is.

it is my understanding the M16  worked flawlessly in field trials with ammo that had 'rod' powder, when they switched over to production they were dispensing 'ball' powder that befouled those M16 with such regularity they never knew if they were going to get three shots or three clips out of them.

[MarkT]

Army Ordinance in their infinite wisdom, made the powder change w/o approval of the designer or Colt, as they had a requirement their battle rifle has to operate in arctic conditions.  They also changed the twist rate w/o approval.  Both were SNAFUs. Then they issued the rifle w/o cleaning kits, thinking it was still going to operate as originally designed even with their changes.  Voila.  Lotsa guys died with their M16's jammed and disassembled.  BTW, Eugene Stoner did not design the M16 or AR15.  He designed the AR10 which is .308 caliber aka 7.62X51 NATO.  His colleagues downsized his design to the AR15 and M16.  They are pretty much identical except for scale.  I have built quite a few of both including milling the receivers, with high performance parts - competition triggers, floated bull barrels, several types of optics, etc. The problem with the AR's is they are precisely machined with tight tolerances which is not so good if they get dirty.  Which happens with regularity with the direct impingement gas system blowing carbon into the action.  The design is supposed to be run WET with oil.  Kalishnikovs are great battle rifles because they have sloppy tolerances which is compatible with crud in the action, and they use a piston instead of blowing gas into the action.  They are designed to be used with little care, by ignoramuses who couldn't break them down and clean them if they had to. Not to mention many of the parts are cheap to make - stamped steel not machined - can be made by anyone with modest machinery in a hovel.

As for me - I don't have any problem taking care of guns.  They are SUPPOSED to be cleaned and oiled.  It's part of the package.

 I LOVE the smell of gun oil in the morning.

[fudgie]

A coworker just switched his AR from .223 to a .450 Bushmaster. Its a heck of a round! 

[Jess from VA]

If a lubeless coating works, great.  But Mark is on the money that ARs traditionally need to be run wet with oil (there are multiple specific oil points on the rifle), for best reliability.  Especially if you will go through multiple mags, as opposed to squeezing off a few.  If it is to be your zombie apocalypse firearm, it best work through hundreds of rounds, every time.  

So here's the deal, even if I got a coated rifle, I'd still lube it.... maybe less.  Just because an AR (or any firearm) can be run dry, there's no need to abuse it to prove the point.  I doubt this coated rifle comes with instructions saying that lube will decrease reliability.  

It will have to be cleaned in any event after firing, so what's a little oil? (it may make it easier to clean)

The original AR15/M16 had a fixed stock and a 20" bbl.  There was the A1 through A4 (different sights, carry handles, flat tops, heavier bbls).  The M4 is a collapsible stock with 16"bbl (considered more portable for fighting in places like Faluja).  If you foresee fighting in and around buildings, an M4 is a good choice.  If out in the woods or open spaces, an 18 or 20" bbl may be a better choice.  Besides a bit more weight (ounces), a fixed stock that fits you perfectly may be better than a collapsible stock.  The collapsible stock gives you more flexibility getting a good shoulder mount if you would wear body armor, a load bearing vest and/or heavy winter clothing, instant flexibility.  Besides that that there are thousands of other parts available.

Do some reading.  My advice is to keep track of weight on each choice you make on design and parts.  A lot of guys end up with a 9-12lb AR, which is fine if you will set it up on a bipod at the range only, but if you might lug it around with you for days on end, 7lbs is better (esp if you also are lugging 4-8 30-rd mags and a pistol).  The lightest weight parts always cost a bit more than the heavier ones.  If you might lug it, a sling is nice.  I love my M1 Garand, but I'm glad I don't have to carry it around much.

I'd always have iron sights, even if considered backup.  But I would not put a big heavy variable scope on one (unless it will only see range time).  An Eotech (laser), or red dot (led), or small/light 1-4X 30mm optic would be my choice (some have a red dot at the crosshairs).  Note that a laser sight cannot be seen out in front of the rifle (by your targets), but a red dot can, at night.  An Eotech is a laser operated gun sight, I'm not talking about a laser pointer bolted up front.

These sights fit my view of the AR as a combat arm for crowd control at fairly short ranges in my suburban world.  I'd rather be able to hit anywhere inside a 5-8 inch circle quickly on multiple targets at multiple distances and directions (maybe even inside your house), than put all my shots in the tightest group on one target at a single distance of say a hundred yards.  

[Serk]

Definitely do your homework and decide what you want... Otherwise, you might end up with a crazy hodge podge safe of indecision like this one:

[Jess from VA]

Serk, there's absolutely nothing wrong with getting one of each. 

But for the guy who will have one, he might as well have that one be the best for his intended purpose.

[RP#62]

Just a word of warning.  I've heard its possible, but I don't think its true that you can only build one.

-RP

[musclehead]

Just a word of warning.  I've heard its possible, but I don't think its true that you can only build one.

-RP

well, I may be able to fund my next rifle with the sale of my first rifle. 

home builders used to have a formula; build 4 houses and sell 'em to make enough to build one for yourself.

any of you remember how long it took me to pull the 'trigger'  and buy my springfield XD 45?  I'll research the heck out of these rifles.

viscerally I'm leaning more towards an M4, I ain't getting any younger and I might appreciate it being a few ounces lighter.

[Serk]

If you're not set on an AR15 action, give a look at some alternatives too... It's not cheap, but the reliability is, well, it's designed and made by the IDF, and when everyone around you wants to kill you and you're surrounded by sand, you tend to make quality stuff...

(Mine gets here next week, can't wait! )



(Israeli designed Tavor bullpup rifle. Fires 5.56/.223, uses STANAG mags, and with a 16.5" barrel is still incredibly short overall length.)

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Build one, (or more) you'll like it.

My primary deer hunting rifle is now an AR in 450 bushmaster. Amazingly accurate with those big, fat bullets. I'm still not as comfortable with the feel or operation as I am with traditional rifles but I like it better every time I shoot it. Hopefully it will take a deer or two in the near future. Gun season comes in next Saturday here in Indiana.

[Varmintmist]

It depends on what you are going to do with it. My match rifle is a 12 lb A2 and it will hang with any bolt gun, and I am still waiting on my A1 lower (have everything else) for a A1 build because AR's are supposed to be LIGHT.  The only change is it will be a 1:9 twist. Other than that, it will have a A1 lower, triangular handguards, buckbill flash hider, and the short stock, pre cleaning kit holder type.

The A1 was a 20 in light bbl with a fast twist as designed by Armalite (AR = Armalite Rifle). The theory was to use light bullets in light rifles so the grunt could carry more ammo. It was always a slow twist 1:12, to shoot 55 gr bullets. It was perfectly adequate to hit a man sized target at 500 yds. There was fixed rear sight assembly and the comfortable triangular hand guards. And it was LIGHT
The A2 added a heavier bbl, 1:7 twist for the ss109 to extend the range to 800, round hand guard, 5/8th of a inch longer stock, and they took the rock and roll switch and turned it into a three round burst.
The A4 is a A2, with the rear sight assembly connected to a picatinny rail so that scopes and such can be mounted. The M4 carbine is the same except with a shorter bbl.

As for building one, they are a big boys Lego. You can do whatever you want to.

[Pete]

Build one if you want it your way.
But do not expect to save money.

If it is a carry rifle the carbon fibers uppers and lowers are very light and shoot very well.

Running heavy on oil is ok, but remember that oil and carbon make a fine grinding paste so flush the action frequently.

I prefer a more targeted lubing, aimed at the wear and friction areas, makes for easier cleanup. 
I use any high quality non harding, non thickening, non gumming lube.

I prefer the M4 pattern for its light quick handling, flat top and the heavier barrel.
Add a 10" or 12" free float forend, with sights and halograph/red dot co-witnessed to hit the same point.

And you have  great self defense, small game rifle.
For more fire power do the same to an ar10.

[musclehead]

If you're not set on an AR15 action, give a look at some alternatives too... It's not cheap, but the reliability is, well, it's designed and made by the IDF, and when everyone around you wants to kill you and you're surrounded by sand, you tend to make quality stuff...

(Mine gets here next week, can't wait! )



(Israeli designed Tavor bullpup rifle. Fires 5.56/.223, uses STANAG mags, and with a 16.5" barrel is still incredibly short overall length.)

very cool.

[musclehead]

this build is for a weapon that will only be throwing rounds downrange every 6 months or so. so I'm really not looking to spend for higher end parts, however I may increase the budget for specific items like the trigger group. I have a mill spec trigger in my Beretta, and I've never been comfortable with the heavy pull which is why I shoot my XD 45 better right out of the box from day one.

so I want a 4 lbs pull trigger for my build and that's about all I require.

ALG defense trigger assembly $70

then there is the Timney drop in module, already to go using stock pins to set it, but it's in a module and just drops right in. for $220 to $300.

[bigdanIA]

lots of good input from the gang...  one thing i'd add is to use an adjustable gas block in your build as the carbines can "overgas" the action.  the gas port in the bbl is the same diameter regardless of the gas system length so you tend to get a stronger "hit" with the shorter carbine length gas system as the port is closer to the chamber.
i don't own a 16" bbl'd AR, my shortest barrel is an 18" 6.5 grendel with a mid length gas system but i think it's something worth researching...

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

I've got about a 4 1/2 lb trigger pull from the CMMG lower parts kit I used, that's without any polishing or tweaking. If it was a 556 I might have tweaked it a little but the 450 Bushmaster has enough recoil that I don't want a light trigger. It has a relatively long sear engagement (creep) but very little stacking in spite of having a good, safe, positive sear angle so I'm happy with it. I think it cost around $50.

[Pete]

A really good trigger is easy and cheap.
Simply polish the hammer, trigger and disconnector contact areas.
And remove all the rough edges.

DO not remove any metal, just polish and smooth.
Almost always nets out to about 4+ lbs but feels like 2.5 to 3.

 

[musclehead]

I've got about a 4 1/2 lb trigger pull from the CMMG lower parts kit I used, that's without any polishing or tweaking. If it was a 556 I might have tweaked it a little but the 450 Bushmaster has enough recoil that I don't want a light trigger. It has a relatively long sear engagement (creep) but very little stacking in spite of having a good, safe, positive sear angle so I'm happy with it. I think it cost around $50.

that's just perfect, that there is the hot tip-o-day. 

[musclehead]

lots of good input from the gang...  one thing i'd add is to use an adjustable gas block in your build as the carbines can "overgas" the action.  the gas port in the bbl is the same diameter regardless of the gas system length so you tend to get a stronger "hit" with the shorter carbine length gas system as the port is closer to the chamber.
i don't own a 16" bbl'd AR, my shortest barrel is an 18" 6.5 grendel with a mid length gas system but i think it's something worth researching...

 

[Jess from VA]

Another small point.  The stock hand grip that comes with nearly all ARs I've seen is a block of plastic that when grasped with your shooting hand allows even the smallest hands (mine) to have the trigger finger to go clear through the guard and the 2d knuckle to rest in the center of the trigger.  It is much better to have the index finger pad to push the trigger, not the 2d knuckle.  So you need a different hand grip,  and my favorite is the Ergo Grip right-handed grip.  It is rubber for a better grip (like Pachmeyer and Bianchi for handguns) and puts the finger pad right on the trigger.  I suppose the MagPul MOE hand grip (and others) do the same, but I like the Ergo grip mold for a specific right (or left) hand best.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/217592/ergo-sure-grip-pistol-grip-ar-15-right-hand-overmolded-rubber-black

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjWAhSM6WjA

[musclehead]

wow! found a M4 barrel on midway for $89! 

[musclehead]

purchased my lower Saturday for the princely sum of $91.18. I found it locally and it's an Anderson rifle multi cal aluminum lower.

I'll keep track of my part cost here, give you an idea of the final bill.

I may have paid about $20 more then online but they would still have to ship to a FFL dealer and then they would do the transfer and background check. I think this lower was $55 online+ shipping +$20 transfer +background check $5. I probably came out even.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

purchased my lower Saturday for the princely sum of $91.18. I found it locally and it's an Anderson rifle multi cal aluminum lower.

I'll keep track of my part cost here, give you an idea of the final bill.

I may have paid about $20 more then online but they would still have to ship to a FFL dealer and then they would do the transfer and background check. I think this lower was $55 online+ shipping +$20 transfer +background check $5. I probably came out even.

That sounds pretty fair. My dealer cost right now is around $40 plus shipping and handling for multi-cal Anderson's. Too bad you're not an Indiana resident within driving distance. I would have hooked you up. Prices have been all over on those receivers lately, your dealer might have paid a lot more than $40 for it. My 450 is built on a GPI, I haven't received any adds on those for a while. I think they (mil spec metal lowers) are all pretty much equal.

[musclehead]

more and more research, I found a link very helpful slickguns.com. has links to many suppliers and sale prices through out.

I found a bolt carrier group for around $70.

a lower parts kit for $43.

still early in the shopping, I will post when I actually buy something....