Value of parts

[Dak44312]

I recently won an auction for a decent used I/S trunk on eBay. The seller didn't like the final sale price, so he sends me a message stating that he is going to refund me because "his daughter set up the auction incorrectly". It may or may not be true, but still, I don't see how that's my problem. The auction ran for a week without any edits. Anyway, I told him the auction was a contract and he refunded me anyway with no further explanation. He is close enough that I'm going to proceed with a small claim on the basis of breach of contract. Based on what I've researched, I'm entitled to the part or the market value of the part. I'm not sure what value to ask for, since the only thing I can think of is using other completed auctions as a gauge. How did all of this go down before eBay existed? Does the court use new price, less a percentage? What other sources can I site?

[Jess from VA]

Based on what I've researched, I'm entitled to the part or the market value of the part.

Yes, but...

You will not likely get a small claims court to order specific performance* of any contract (force him to honor the contract and sell you his trunk for your bid price).  It is much more likely that you would win the difference in price from what you bid, to what it's fair market value is.  

To prove fair market value in court, you want to take in hard copy evidence showing what used trunks (in as close a condition to his as possible) have sold for.... the more the better.  Most judges would be inclined to average the values of the sold trunks you provide in evidence.  Now finding actual sale prices can be difficult, and showing asking prices would be easier.  You can use asking prices if sold prices cannot be found, and you tell him you made your best efforts to find sales prices, but given the nature of the ebay/other bidding systems, final sold prices are not always (or ever) shown.

Once you file suit and he is served, you should contact him again and offer to drop the case if he just honors the original deal (obviously he may prefer this to showing up in court).  There are also remedies through the bidding systems (ebay/other) but I have no idea how they work.  If he is a big seller, his reputation may be important to him, but if this was a one time deal he may not care.

I've seen a number of IS trunks go for $1200-800 in the past.  Obviously, this will vary depending on whether the trunk is complete and includes all the mount hardware and fender struts, or it is a naked trunk with no hardware.

* http://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/business-contracts-forms/what-is-specific-performance-as-a-legal-remedy.html

[Dak44312]

Thanks for your input.

Yeah, I've conceded that I probably won't get the trunk (which is what I really wanted), and I knew the part about being awarded the difference in my buy price ($255) and fair market. I'm surprised to hear that asking prices would be considered, although I understand it may help the court realize value. He had a BIN of $1000 on the auction. Maybe that will carry some weight. Trunk is complete and has a chrome rack and mounting brackets.

I didn't think contact was allowed after service. Appreciate that tip. This was his first sale, so he probably doesn't care about my negative feedback and his future eBay endevours. The fact that it was his first one  lends a little credibility to his excuse being legit, but not to his ignorance.

[RainMaker]

He probably violated ebay seller's rules and could be delisted if you wish to pursue. Or you could just post the link to the trunk and maybe some other folks (maybe people reading this thread) could post questions that warn potential buyers that the guy will renig if the price isn't right when the auction ends. Just sayin'.

[Valkorado]

Dak I don't know if you saw the rear Interstate fender with blinkers and license plate holder offered by the same guy, but I won it for $1.35 plus $25 shipping.  I didn't need the fender (even though it was the same green color as the IS I just bought) but thought I could trade it for something I could use like a seat or alternator.  When I saw the bid was closing at 99 cents I thought, "What the heck" and bid a $5.00 maximum.

Of course, he reneged (using the same excuse he gave you) and refunded my purchase cost.  I didn't complain.

I think his excuse is probably legitimate as he had zero feedback. If he had been familiar with eBay he would have had a reserve price on the auctions.

I sure hope he double checks his daughter's listings from now on.

EDIT:  Referring to Jess' post, while I'm not going to pursue the $1.35 fender I'd be willing to write something up for you if you decide to to go after that trunk.  Let me know.

[da prez]

File a claim with E bay. He is in violation of E bay contract. If he is a one time seller , then maybe nothing will happen. If he try to relist it, he will be blocked  .  Do your best.  
                                                                       Da prez

[Jess from VA]

Thanks for your input.

Yeah, I've conceded that I probably won't get the trunk (which is what I really wanted), and I knew the part about being awarded the difference in my buy price ($255) and fair market. I'm surprised to hear that asking prices would be considered, although I understand it may help the court realize value. He had a BIN of $1000 on the auction. Maybe that will carry some weight. Trunk is complete and has a chrome rack and mounting brackets.

I didn't think contact was allowed after service. Appreciate that tip. This was his first sale, so he probably doesn't care about my negative feedback and his future eBay endeavors. The fact that it was his first one  lends a little credibility to his excuse being legit, but not to his ignorance.

I would argue his buy-it-now price is the best evidence of it's fair market value (and try to get other objective evidence to support that value).  Obviously asking prices are not best evidence of sold prices, and a judge could refuse to consider asking prices; I only mentioned asking prices if they are all you can dig up objective evidence of.  Good color pics of his actual trunk and accessories is a must.  

Also, if it was already the correct color you wanted (not requiring repaint) would also make the trunk more valuable to you, since any replacement requiring repaint will also put you out that cost as well.  (driving up your damages)

While specific performance is unlikely, it's not impossible, esp if you can argue it was the perfect part for your bike (color), and difficulty finding one just like or or as good (with correct paint and chrome rack). All this allows you to argue the uniqueness of the item in a specific performance claim.  If it gets to court, go for specific performance #1, and the difference of prices #2.  Nothing prohibits two separate theories of contract damages.

Small claims court procedure is similar everywhere, but I cannot know your particular State law for sure, but as far as I know you can always contact the defendant, at least until and unless you are contacted/notified by an attorney (or other legitimate representative) and instructed to only contact him with any discussion/argument/offers.  Unless your particular state law forbids it (I doubt it).  Indeed, you could contact before filing a small claims case, tell him you are going to sue (don't tip your hand on all your arguments).  You could also offer to increase your offer to say $500 (still a pretty good deal), but only if you are really willing to pay it, since that also will come out in court if he refuses and you proceed.  You might hold off on filing an ebay complaint, at least during the dickering stage.  This is just another chip on your side of the table, and once the complaint is filed he will be precluded from using it to sell in the future (tell him you will file a complaint if he continues to renig).

If his trunk in good condition with all extras is fairly valued at $1K (it likely is), and you won the bid at $255, damages sought should be at least the difference at $745.  This should make him strongly reconsider reneging on the deal (if he loses $745 or thereabouts in court, he has to sell it for a $K to break even).  Presumably he read and understood the simple rules (he should be presumed to have done so), and him backing out and refunding your money is nothing more than him not liking the outcome, pure and simple.  You would argue there was no mistake at all, just an unfair refusal to follow the contract agreement... that HE initiated.  IF you go to court, you are also allowed to seek all costs of litigation, including filing and service-of-process fees, and any other directly-out-of-pocket expenses of the litigation.

I would bet a lot of used trunks don't have a chrome rack on them, esp if it's the Honda chrome rack, which is now unavailable, and spendy to buy if you can even find one.  This also drives up your damages.   (When you could buy them they were like $320 or more by themselves)

Under contract law, he made an offer, you accepted the offer, and paid him your final bid price (which is called consideration under contract law).  Offer, acceptance and consideration. You are in the driver's seat on this.

If you go to court, get a statement of Valkorado on his experience with the same seller.  It can be handwritten, but signed in front of a notary.  This solidifies an argument of his acting in bad faith, with no confusion or ignorance at all.   He just doesn't like the prices he agreed by contract (in advance of sale) to honor.

If he argues strenuously that his daughter was at fault in setting this up wrong on the auction, tell him that is between he and she.... he can sue her for his loss, but you intend to be made whole.  

[MP]

At least file ebay complaint. I have before, worth the effort.

[dreamaker]

I recently won an auction for a decent used I/S trunk on eBay. The seller didn't like the final sale price, so he sends me a message stating that he is going to refund me because "his daughter set up the auction incorrectly". It may or may not be true, but still, I don't see how that's my problem. The auction ran for a week without any edits. Anyway, I told him the auction was a contract and he refunded me anyway with no further explanation. He is close enough that I'm going to proceed with a small claim on the basis of breach of contract. Based on what I've researched, I'm entitled to the part or the market value of the part. I'm not sure what value to ask for, since the only thing I can think of is using other completed auctions as a gauge. How did all of this go down before eBay existed? Does the court use new price, less a percentage? What other sources can I site?

I do Ebay, and have won a few auctions recently, that I am know they weren't happy with the results. I don't know how it has changed, but before they could, like once a year rescind they auction item. But I don't think that flies after the auction has closed, then rescind the deal. Defiantly, even for principles, file a complaint with EBay, it make them look bad when people pull that crap.  Also check out his feedback score, look how many negatives he has, generally they protect their feedback like the Hope Diamond, if they are constant EBayers. Go for the throat, nail their feedback.

[Dak44312]

Rainmaker, da prez, MP, dreammaker-  I'm an experienced buyer/seller. It doesn't quite work that way. As a seller, you have the option to publish those questions to your auction or just answer them privately. This guy has a "0" score (well, -1 now). I cannot open a case with eBay since my money was refunded. The buyer does not get the option of agreeing with the refund/terms of cancellation. That all being said, I am not sure what the threshold is for eBay to not allow him to sell any more- whether it is a feedback number or a specific circumstance.   Thank you all for the replies.

Valkorado- I did see that fender. I was going to do a "what the hell" bid like you did... I just missed out on bidding on it. I've left negative feedback already. I'd appreciate if you'd do the same. Don't fear retaliation. You can't leave negative feedback for buyers. I'll get with you privately on the write up. Certainly appreciate it.

Jess- thanks again. Solid advice. I'll consider contacting him pre-file, but he's been pretty standoffish, so I'm leaning toward not.

[Valkorado]

Valkorado- I did see that fender. I was going to do a "what the hell" bid like you did... I just missed out on bidding on it. I've left negative feedback already. I'd appreciate if you'd do the same. Don't fear retaliation. You can't leave negative feedback for buyers. I'll get with you privately on the write up. Certainly appreciate it.

Done.

[Dak44312]

That's why you are the man! Thanks much.

PS... I have standard and I/S seats if you're just looking for OE.

[Jess from VA]

Jess- thanks again. Solid advice. I'll consider contacting him pre-file, but he's been pretty standoffish, so I'm leaning toward not.

Welcome.  

How you go about trying to bargain or stragetize a case is personal.  My MO was always to start out more reasonable and willing to compromise.  The more time/work I had to put in, the less reasonable I became.... and if you made me jump through all the hoops, then why should I take any prisoners at all?  Of course, I always told the opposition this strategy up front.  It often helped.

Based on your info, you have a very good case, and he has no defense at all.  If he doesn't know this, perhaps he should be told.  Always be professional and use words your mother wouldn't find offensive.  If you put anything in writing, imagine it is also for a judge ('cause it is).  A simple letter outlining the chronology of facts (dates), ebay rules, and telling him what you want, and that you will go to court and win if you must might be the only work you have to do (it must be perfectly accurate).  Such a letter helps organize your case, and if later shown to the judge, makes you look so very fair and reasonable.  Send it registered and return receipt requested (cost added to the damages if court becomes necessary).

Create a file and put everything in it, and your notes.

BTW, if you have to take a day off work for court, add a day's wages (net) to your complaint.

If more questions come up, PM or email me.  Always glad to help, if I can.  

[Jess Tolbirt]

Altho not me,I know what happened here,, it was a mistake on the sellers listing, the buy it now price was a fair price and there was not a min. reserve placed on the auction due to an oversight by the daughter.

This was a first time on ebay and I can see why this might happen..

if you were selling something worth a 1000 bucs and forgot to list a min reserve and your money is sorta tight would you let it go for almost nothing?

dont hate the guy because a mistake was made, send him an email and see if ya'll can work something out that would be fair to both of you..

thats just my thoughts..

and here is another thought, what if you were to make a bid on something that was listed for 100 dollars and accidentally added another 0, would you pay the 1000 dollars?

i dont want to start an argument, i just want to make both sides seen..
 

[Crazyhorse]

I agree with Jess. Everyone makes mistakes.

[Atl-Jerry]

Under the "advanced" search feature in eBay you can search for completed items and gather data on like items that have sold for a specified time period. 
 

[dreamaker]

Altho not me,I know what happened here,, it was a mistake on the sellers listing, the buy it now price was a fair price and there was not a min. reserve placed on the auction due to an oversight by the daughter.

This was a first time on ebay and I can see why this might happen..

if you were selling something worth a 1000 bucs and forgot to list a min reserve and your money is sorta tight would you let it go for almost nothing?

dont hate the guy because a mistake was made, send him an email and see if ya'll can work something out that would be fair to both of you..

thats just my thoughts..

and here is another thought, what if you were to make a bid on something that was listed for 100 dollars and accidentally added another 0, would you pay the 1000 dollars?

i dont want to start an argument, i just want to make both sides seen..
 

I don't agree with you guys, EBay is business, and business is business, you must back up your mouth, or don't mess with it and don't blame your children for your mistakes. I have been doing EBay for many years, and never had a feedback less than 100%, I have made mistakes on it, that cost me, but I respected the fact it was my mistake and not the buyers problem. Its just the way business is, and honoring your word is everything.

[Wizzard]

The general attitude now days is to  not be responsible for  your mistakes. Find something else to blame it on. I made many mistakes growing up and suffered for every one of them. That is why I don't make the same mistakes any more. My dear old Dad use to tell me,"those who don't listen will have to feel"
That's my thoughts.

[Crazyhorse]

I have made mistakes in business that have cost me because I stand behind my word. I have also forgiven other for there mistakes because I believed it was the right thing to do. And could care less if you agree with me.

[sutterhome]

ebay lets the seller pull out at any time they just have to refund.Feedback use to have some weight. But now its just crap.You cant even put in the text of you item that you wont sell to 0 feedback peeps, yet you can select this in your preferences, ebay will block this and say its rude to include.Yet the 0s can bid and win no matter that they should have been blocked.Ebay is just messed up and that's being nice.

[Jess from VA]

You guys should know I placed no moral value judgment on advice about using small claims court in this case.  I was asked, and provided advice.  If the other guy (seller) was a regular on here and asked for advice, I might have provided him advice.  I can make his argument too.  

As a conservative, I place high value on following the rule of law.  Especially for our G, but also in business.  I also place high value on honoring my (your) word, especially in business (or politics).  Holding people's feet to the fire who don't follow the rule of law or honor their word is usually a noble enterprise.

The general attitude now days is to not be responsible for your mistakes.  Find something else to blame it on.

I agree Wizard.

I have also forgiven others for their mistakes because I believed it was the right thing to do.

But I also agree with Crazyhorse.

Ebay is just messed up and that's being nice.

That's also my understanding Sutterhome, I won't touch it with an 11 ft pole.


  

[Valkorado]

Tough call, I also see both sides of the argument.  Still, having "won" the fender auction for $1.35 plus $25 shipping (that may not even have covered actual shipping costs) I must admit I almost felt sorry for the seller.  I sure wasn't surprised when he reneged, I almost expected it.  Like I said, I didn't need the fender.  Now, had I needed the trunk and paid $255 plus $65 shipping for the trunk like Dak did, I might feel like I got srewed out of a great deal and a more legitimate sale.

[Jack]

#1 Yes, he's an asshole.
#2 Report the seller to ebay
#3 Get over it.

[gordonv]

Altho not me,I know what happened here,, it was a mistake on the sellers listing, the buy it now price was a fair price and there was not a min. reserve placed on the auction due to an oversight by the daughter.

This was a first time on ebay and I can see why this might happen..

if you were selling something worth a 1000 bucs and forgot to list a min reserve and your money is sorta tight would you let it go for almost nothing?

Yes. But too many people make the mistake of not placing the lowest price they will sell something for, and just place a $1 opening bid. They do this to avoid paying ebay extra money for listing the item (or they used too, it's been a while since I've posted).

There is no excuse for this. I don't believe there should be a reserved auction allowed. You should put that as your asking price. If I put an asking price of a $1, a reserve of $800, and a BIN of $1K, and the auction only goes to $100, then it doesn't sell, even though the highest bidder placed a $2K, unless there is another person bidding against that person, the price never goes higher than the next highest bid (the $100).

It doesn't matter that his "daughter" placed the ad or not. It was upon his instructions, and he is/should be held responsible for it. If you have the ability to know who this person is, and follow up in court, then do.

As for information, you can also find closed auctions. It's on the right hand side the last time I found it.

Last one I saw for sale was from Pinwal, and was over $1k with a lot of damage. Just for the plastic.