Engine abruptly quits when making hard left turn.

[DK]

I installed an R&M belly tank on my triked 25,000 mile, '2000 Valk Tourer before Christmas. I took it out for its first local ride yesterday and the engine abruptly shuts off every time without fail when going through a moderately hard left turn. A bump hit during the course of the left turn will cause a shut down even sooner.

It will go through a sweeping left turn ok. When it shuts down and I pull over, the fuel pump is operating and the lights are on. If I attempt to start before turning off the key, nothing happens. If I turn off the key & turn it back on, it starts normally until the next hard left turn. I can also cause it to occur by a hard left swerve.

The only alterations of the electrical system during the tank install was to remove a set of Big BF quad horns and also hooking the fuel pump to the 5 amp auxiliary circuit located within the right cover. I also fitted one of Bon S's relay harnesses for the running lights. I had already installed his relay harness for the headlight some time ago. I removed the fuse the new circuit and did not activate the running light circuit - I just wanted to be sure that both Bon S. circuit relays would both fit in the headlight bucket .

I'm 99.9% that the belly tank install is proper and that this problem is caused by something I did during the install.

This is obviously an electrical problem. The shut down is immediate and occurs at low throttle settings immediately after opening the fuel cap to release any vacuum. Also, Valk behaves like she could run at WOT all day or at least until she burns 9 gallons of fuel. (so long as you go straight).

My only ideas are that I somehow, some way, affected the bank angle switch (if I have one after triking her) and if the switch was removed when she was triked, I may have disturbed the wiring related to the removed. I also have the same concerns with the kickstand safety switch, if it still exists.

All of the wires and cables from the bars seem to be happily situated. Moving the bars from full lock to opposite full lock with the engine running has no effect.

Any help would really be appreciated.

Dan

[Bighead]

She is telling you to remove that extra rear tire and ride her the way she was ment to be ridden
Seriously I have no answer to your ?

[PhredValk]

To me this sounds like the bank angle sensor. How long has this been a trike? Did it do this before the belly tank install?
Remove the seat and check the center cover panel forward and beneath the rear of the tank. There is a black plastic doohicky, that's the sensor.
If not held securely by two screws it may be slightly turned or twisted to one side. If it thinks the bike has fallen too far to one side it will kill the engine immediately, and it doesn't reset until you turn the key off and back on.
With the trike's inability to lean, the sensor will trip sooner than on a two wheeler, so it wouldn't have to be twisted very far from center to get tripped by a sharp turn in the direction it is twisted.
Fred.

[Ken Tarver]

I'm with Fred....bank angle sensor out of position likely.

Ken

[longrider]

phredvalk is absolutely correct.  If the bank angle sensor is still in the correct orientation you may want to replace it.  

[DK]

I think you guys are dead-on.

I was pushing and pulling new hoses through that area in the course of installing the belly tank. There was also a lot of wrenching in the area.

I'll report tomorrow night.

Thanks from warm and sunny Little Rock. Had a great Christmas Day ride of right turns only.

Dan

[Valkpilot]

I don't think it's the bank angle sensor. 

I would look to wiring associated with the handlebars, and specifically associated with the engine stop switch.

[WintrSol]

I don't think it's the bank angle sensor.  

I would look to wiring associated with the handlebars, and specifically associated with the engine stop switch.

That was my first thought, but, since this is a trike, the angle sensor could also be it. Does it start running again by itself, or do you have to restart it? The bank angle sensor requires turning the ignition off and on to reset it, according to the service manual.
I re-read the OP, and see that you do have to turn the key off, so my vote is the sensor, followed by the stop switch. Since this is a trike, I don't see the need to keep that sensor, and would consider bypassing it.

[DK]

I'm not allowed to go near Valk today because of house guests so haven't had the opportunity to follow up on suggestions.

My further thoughts / questions are with regard to the bank angle sensor; the trike doesn't lean. It's a Lehman live axle no lean suspension and he problem seem to be initiated by centrifugal force and/or bumps instead of leaning.

As to removing the sensor, does anyone know whether it's absence will default to stopping the engine and, if so,  would grounding or connecting the wiring allow the engine to run?

I prefer removing the sensor. The engine shutting down in the middle of a corner is a thrill I can do without.

Dan

[The emperor has no clothes]

I'm not allowed to go near Valk today because of house guests so haven't had the opportunity to follow up on suggestions.

My further thoughts / questions are with regard to the bank angle sensor; the trike doesn't lean. It's a Lehman live axle no lean suspension and he problem seem to be initiated by centrifugal force and/or bumps instead of leaning.

As to removing the sensor, does anyone know whether it's absence will default to stopping the engine and, if so,  would grounding or connecting the wiring allow the engine to run?

I prefer removing the sensor. The engine shutting down in the middle of a corner is a thrill I can do without.

Dan

I would check to make sure it's not loose or moved to begin with. 

[Daniel Meyer]

Yeah, kind of sounds like it's flopping around in there.

If it's what shuts you down, you should have to turn the key off/on before it will restart.

That may be a helpful clue.

[WintrSol]

As to removing the sensor, does anyone know whether it's absence will default to stopping the engine and, if so,  would grounding or connecting the wiring allow the engine to run?

I prefer removing the sensor. The engine shutting down in the middle of a corner is a thrill I can do without.

Dan

The sensor is powered from the ignition switch, through a 10A fuse, which also powers the bank angle sensor relay (white wire to both). When the sensor is reset, it grounds the coil of the relay, which sends power to the engine run/stop switch. So, you would have to find the relay, unplug it, and jumper the white wire contact to the Bl/Lg wire contact of the socket; you can probably just push some solid wire into the relay socket, and tie it in place. You don't actually have to remove the sensor, as this effectively eliminates it. Alternatively, you can unplug the sensor, and jumper from the green wire contact to the R/W wire contact in the mating connector, which would turn the relay on all the time the key is on. Since both are next to the battery, you can do either change; sell the sensor, if you like, as you won't be needing it.

Simplified diagram:

[Firefighter]

I don't know anything about belly tanks, but would check what the guys are saying and recheck all your connections, battery connections, what did you do with your kickstand switch and wires. Let us know what you find.

[indybobm]

WintrSol,  what you are saying is accurate, but there is another way to do this. Instead of jumpering the connector that goes to the Bank Angle Sensor Relay, you could unplug the connector to the Bank Angle Sensor..
That is where you would jumper the White wire to the Red/White at the 3P White connector that plugs into the Sensor.

I would NEVER, EVER suggest eliminating the Bank Angle Sensor. But for trouble-shooting purposes here is how it works:

To bypass the Bank Angle Sensor, you would disconnect the 3P connector at the Bank Angle Sensor and jumper the Red/White Wire to the Green Wire.

There are two parts to the Bank Angle Sensor circuit. The first is the Bank Angle Sensor itself.  The second is the Bank Angle Sensor Relay.
The Bank Angle Sensor has an 'internal' relay which is not energized until the angle of the bike reaches a certain angle. This  'internal' relay, when unenergized, supplies a ground to the Bank Angle Sensor Relay through its Normally Closed contacts.  The then energized Bank Angle Sensor Relay supplies 12 volts through the Engine Stop Switch and Starter Button to the Starter Relay.

When the angle of the bike exceeds the allowed angle, an internal contact in the Bank Angle Sensor,  (think of it as a pendulum swinging side to side) supplies a ground to the 'internal' relay in the Bank Angle Sensor, energizing the 'internal' relay which opens the Normally Closed contacts.
This removes the ground from the Bank Angle Sensor Relay which de-energizes that relay and removes the 12 volts to the Engine Stop Switch, the Starter Switch and the Starter Relay.

The 'internal' relay in the Bank Angle Sensor is a latching relay. It will remain energized until the angle of the bike is corrected and the ignition key is switched off.

By the way, the Bank Angle Sensor Relay is shown as Item#14 on the wiring fiche. On the fiche, it is called the RELAY, STARTER.
This is different from Item#10 on the Battery fiche which is the SWITCH ASSY., STARTER MAGNETIC

[WintrSol]

For a normal, two-wheeled bike, the bank angle sensor is a good thing; in a trike, it's useless as teats on a boar, unless you can roll the trike over. It is less than useless if it starts causing problems. Your suggestion for unplugging the sensor and jumping from green to red/white is my second suggestion, BTW.

[Dak44312]

Really does sound like BAS, but I wouldn't overlook the ignition switch. Depending on the weight of key rings over the years and the number of times it's been turned, it can get a weird wear spot in it. Outside of any slop in the cylinder allowing it to move to just the right dead spot when you turn, weight on your key ring would be effectively pulling the key away from the cylinder on lefties. Had a similar issue with my I/S. When I turned the key on, some lights would come on, but not the odometer. If I rattled it around a bit, I could make it work. Finally replaced it after it got so bad it wouldn't work any more.

[John Schmidt]

Yup, heavy key chain junk can be a killer. One of the first things drilled into my head when first learning to fly was one key and a small tag or chain, nothing more. Done for the same reason as mentioned....can eventually create looseness in the switch and kill the ignition. Nothing like sudden deafening quiet at 10k feet in bumpy weather. Accidents on the highway isn't the only time you should have clean underwear on. 

[DK]

Yup, heavy key chain junk can be a killer. One of the first things drilled into my head when first learning to fly was one key and a small tag or chain, nothing more. Done for the same reason as mentioned....can eventually create looseness in the switch and kill the ignition. Nothing like sudden deafening quiet at 10k feet in bumpy weather. Accidents on the highway isn't the only time you should have clean underwear on. 

I haven't had a chance to get back on it due to the holidays and grandchildren but I doubt it to be an ignition problem.

I purchased the Valk from its original owner with 11,000 on the clock. The seller delivered both keys, each the only key on separate light plastic advertising fob.  I have added only a Zumo 550 security key to each fob. There is currently 25,000 miles on it so it is low mileage with no indication of abuse.

I strongly first suspect the BAS because of the ignition reset necessary to restart it each and every time the engine shut off only on a hard left turn or a hard left swerve and the further fact that it occurred each and every time a hard left input happened. I think a worn ignition would be more erratic.

I haven't found the BAS in the little time I've been able to sneak out. I can see that I'll have to remove the battery box after which I assume it will be visible somewhere behind the center cover or under the battery box possibly attached to a cross member. It also seems that it would be situated on the center of the long axis of the Valk.

If anyone can tell more precisely where it is located I'd appreciate it.

Again, thanks everyone for your attention to this matter.

Dan

[gordonv]

Do you have the Service Manual? Page 19-18 (page 425)

Digital PDF copy.

http://valkyrienorway.com/download.html

[Michvalk]

I think that switch is actually attached to the center cover. FWIW, I think that is where your problem lies as well

[Daniel Meyer]

Yep it seems likely that's it. I wouldn't remove it as some here advise...even your car has one nowadays. They reduce fires and engine destruction and injuries and other nasties on rollover...and even trikes roll.

It's an easy piece of kit to reattach or replace, and they are pretty much trouble free when correctly installed.

Let us know what ya find!

[58Woody]

Had the exact same issue on my trike. Tightened up the BAS ......Problem solved.

[58Woody]

I think that switch is actually attached to the center cover. FWIW, I think that is where your problem lies as well

Was an easy fix.
See my post on this :   http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,73189.0.html

[DK]

Found it.

When installing the belly tank, I found what appeared to be a branch of the wiring harness taped up and inserted in one of the bolt holes in the cross member where the kickstand was originally attached.

I assumed it to be something needed for a bike but not a trike and pushed on without any more thought.

Turns out, it's the BAS as evidenced by the contours of the device appearing thru the tape. For something as jack leg as sticking it in a vacant frame bolt hole, the taping was workmanlike, as in obsessive. Neat as can be, done with fusing silicone tape.

To the point, finally, the question becomes whether to leave the wiring as-is and secure it somewhere in an appropriate manner or remove it using one of the methods suggested earlier in this thread.

Hope the photo works. If not I'll try it again without explanation. I copied an "img" link and inserted it between "img" brackets. -- I rarely post photos.

Suggestions would be appreciated.

Dan



[/URL][/img]

[gordonv]

Suggestions would be appreciated.

Dan

If your bike looks anything like 58Woody, then you still have that front cover, and I see no reason to even touch the BAS. I like the idea of a cutoff switch if there is a rollover.

I see you used photobucket. When you copied the link under the IMG selection, you don't have to do anything more to it when you copy it to the page. Just paste it, as I did above.

In your picture, isn't that a ground wire not connected to the bike???

[DK]

Gordonv,

Thanks for the photo posting directions.

When I cut open the taped "object" pictured above I discovered it to be the kickstand safety switch.

Thereafter, I located the BAS. It is located behind the center cover but attached to a frame crossmember directly above and behind it and attached to the frame by two 8 or 10 mm hex bolts passing thru rubber vibration grommets. One of the attachment bolts was missing and the BAS was tilted to the right 25 degrees or so. It had been displaced by the extra filler hose required for the belly tank install.

I'm going to replace the missing BAS bolt and re-tape the kick stand switch as it was & secure it below the battery box.

Thanks to everyone for all the help.

Dan

[Ken Tarver]

Success! Congrats DK


Ken

[DK]

Suggestions would be appreciated.

Dan

If your bike looks anything like 58Woody, then you still have that front cover, and I see no reason to even touch the BAS. I like the idea of a cutoff switch if there is a rollover.

I see you used photobucket. When you copied the link under the IMG selection, you don't have to do anything more to it when you copy it to the page. Just paste it, as I did above.

In your picture, isn't that a ground wire not connected to the bike???

That's the disconnected battery ground.

Thanks for the photo posting tips. I've done it before but forgot.

Do I understand that all I have to do is paste the img link from photobucket into the message without having to use the img selection on the toolbar?

Dan

[Hook#3287]

Had the exact same issue on my trike. Tightened up the BAS ......Problem solved.

That's got to be one of the best looking trikes I've seen.

NICE

[gordonv]

Do I understand that all I have to do is paste the img link from photobucket into the message without having to use the img selection on the toolbar?

Dan

Yes.