question for pilots

[Jess Tolbirt]

we had an experimental aircraft crash here, killing the pilot. i dont want to speculate as to what happened but i was wondering, if you have a small home-built plane and stall speed is say 25 to 35mph, and the engine quits, couldnt you dive for a hundred feet or so and then flare out right before stall speed to scrub off speed before dropping to the ground? sorta like a parachuter does..

i hate it that this guy lost his life, he made a few landings to "fix" things and the last time it just quit running on him...

http://www.wsmv.com/story/30912299/small-plane-crash-reported-in-lebanon

[BonS]

You're describing a "dead stick" landing. Yes it can be done with skill and luck of managing your "energy" while finding a suitable landing spot.

[DirtyDan]

we had a private plane crash in our neighbors driveway. killed pilot hit nothing but asphalt

was 75ish feet from 9-11 the home game

dan

[98valk]

with rotary wing its called auto rotation, did it a few times while taking flight lessons.

[Rams]

You're describing a "dead stick" landing. Yes it can be done with skill and luck of managing your "energy" while finding a suitable landing spot.

with rotary wing its called auto rotation, did it a few times while taking flight lessons.

Can't speak to a fixed wing (dead stick) landing but I've successfully landed a helicopter in autorotation hundreds of times if not more with the engine at idle (practice).   Have also had nine engine failures during test flights and never bent a skid (practice pays off).    Having said that, BonS is correct in both fixed winged and rotary wing aircraft.   Skill, management of what energy one has left, altitude and airspeed combined with being lucky enough to have a decent area to put her down all have to come together.

In reference to stall speeds, my understanding of fixed winged A/C is that every A/C will have differing stall speeds and with a home built, I would imagine the variations would be even greater but, you'd have to ask the designer of the home built A/C what that stall speed is.

[John Schmidt]

we had an experimental aircraft crash here, killing the pilot. i dont want to speculate as to what happened but i was wondering, if you have a small home-built plane and stall speed is say 25 to 35mph, and the engine quits, couldnt you dive for a hundred feet or so and then flare out right before stall speed to scrub off speed before dropping to the ground? sorta like a parachuter does..

i hate it that this guy lost his life, he made a few landings to "fix" things and the last time it just quit running on him...

http://www.wsmv.com/story/30912299/small-plane-crash-reported-in-lebanon

Judging by the witness report, it was apparently too low to attempt such a maneuver. In those last few seconds he probably did his best to steer away from hitting the house, and simply pancaked on the ground. Didn't appear to have nosed in but can't tell for sure, he certainly didn't have a 100' or so. Even with 100' you'd be hard pressed to suddenly recover from powered flight to a glider and make it out in one piece. The loss of power suddenly is quite a shock, had it happen to me over downtown Orlando and I was well above pattern altitude. Our mechanic later found for some reason the mixture control suddenly let go and went to full lean, killing the engine. Fortunately I was within gliding range of the a/p but it was close even at my altitude, if I had been at pattern alt. I wouldn't have made it. Even then, the sudden shock takes a couple seconds to realize what happen and to react to it. When I touched down, I was going slow enough in a C-150 that the prop had quit windmilling. Those watching said I hit the runway no more than one foot inside the approach end/overrun. The hardest part of that flight.....breaking the suction when I went to get out of the plane. 

[RP#62]

Lot of variables, how much altitude you have to work with at the time, glide ratio, etc., but yes, you drop the nose keep the airspeed above stall speed and look for a place to land.  Certified aircraft will have a published optimum glide speed.  A Cessna 152 for example has a very generous glide ratio due to its high aspect ratio wing.  From 6000 feet, you can glide 10 NM.  Air Canada did a dead stick landing with a 767 once upon time and I think it was Air Transat did one with an A330 in the Azores about 15 years ago.  They ground the mains down to the hub trying to stop it, but it was a successful landing.

-RP

[Patrick]

I saw nothing in the reports that I could find that said much about the circumstances.
If there are issues to figure out I certainly wouldn't leave the pattern for quite awhile until the problems were pretty well figured out.

That said, if the engine failed, I'd like to know where it happened in relationship to the runway orientation, airport boundaries, and, at what altitude he was at. Since the plane was found on its back the instruments may be damaged/stuck and useful info may be available from them.  What they say, if anything, would be helpful.

Speculation would say that this seems to be a stall resulting in the crash, but, that may not be the case as this fella seemed liked an experienced flyer from the report. An experienced pilot knows to fly an aircraft right through a crash, controlling the plane all the way through the crash. Or, at least, they should know that. That means not allowing it to stall. But, panic can set in and/or he was trying to 'extend' the glide which in most cases just doesn't work out well.

He may not have had anywhere to go and just rolled the dice and did the best he could.

I get these reports when all is said and done, but, that takes time. Usually a long time.


I guess I should have answered a question. The best to 'scrub' off altitude is a slip. This tends to be overlooked more than it should in instruction today [ may be just my opinion but I find few know how to do it well today]. Fellas proficient in flying without flaps know how to slip.

[Grumpy]

Just to clear some thing up experimental does not necessarily mean home built. There are a lot of factory built air planes that have been modified over the years and carry the experimental tag. A good example is a lot of WW2 aircraft that have been restored are in that class. The one that crashed is a home built, looks like it is a VW conversion on the engine. Some home built air craft have a fairly decent glide ratio. I regularly fly a Vans RV-4 and it is capable of 1.75 miles per 1000 ft of altitude.
but that is an average, depends on head wind etc.

[baldo]

we had an experimental aircraft crash here, killing the pilot. i dont want to speculate as to what happened but i was wondering, if you have a small home-built plane and stall speed is say 25 to 35mph, and the engine quits, couldnt you dive for a hundred feet or so and then flare out right before stall speed to scrub off speed before dropping to the ground? sorta like a parachuter does..

i hate it that this guy lost his life, he made a few landings to "fix" things and the last time it just quit running on him...

http://www.wsmv.com/story/30912299/small-plane-crash-reported-in-lebanon

Judging by the witness report, it was apparently too low to attempt such a maneuver. In those last few seconds he probably did his best to steer away from hitting the house, and simply pancaked on the ground. Didn't appear to have nosed in but can't tell for sure, he certainly didn't have a 100' or so. Even with 100' you'd be hard pressed to suddenly recover from powered flight to a glider and make it out in one piece. The loss of power suddenly is quite a shock, had it happen to me over downtown Orlando and I was well above pattern altitude. Our mechanic later found for some reason the mixture control suddenly let go and went to full lean, killing the engine. Fortunately I was within gliding range of the a/p but it was close even at my altitude, if I had been at pattern alt. I wouldn't have made it. Even then, the sudden shock takes a couple seconds to realize what happen and to react to it. When I touched down, I was going slow enough in a C-150 that the prop had quit windmilling. Those watching said I hit the runway no more than one foot inside the approach end/overrun. The hardest part of that flight.....breaking the suction when I went to get out of the plane. 

Lol.....it should have worked when you started talking.....

[Firefighter]

He would have probably been fine if he had a place to land. If I understand the facts correctly his mistake was landing several times "to fix things", seems if that is true he was taking some dangerous chances. Reminds me of the term "get-home-itis".

[MarkT]

As a glider pilot EVERY landing is dead stick.  No touch and go practice.  Get it right the first time, and every time.  Good practice.

[BnB Tom]

 
   "...   and the engine quits, "

    This is a very important part of the solution.

It may have been something other than an engine out situation in which case all bets are off!!

If a connecting rod/cable broke or became disabled, a dead stick landing would probably be off the table...  no matter what altitude.

[Art708]

You're describing a "dead stick" landing. Yes it can be done with skill and luck of managing your "energy" while finding a suitable landing spot.

  And if you have enough altitude. You can never have too much altitude.

[Patrick]

You're describing a "dead stick" landing. Yes it can be done with skill and luck of managing your "energy" while finding a suitable landing spot.

  And if you have enough altitude. You can never have too much altitude.

Every licensed pilot should have quite a few ' dead stick' landings under their belts. Problem is that many of them are done/practiced under ideal conditions and then not practiced very often.
When one has to be performed for real, there may be no choice in where to go and no choice in altitude. You just deal with the hand dealt you and try to survive it the best you can.

[baldo]

You're describing a "dead stick" landing. Yes it can be done with skill and luck of managing your "energy" while finding a suitable landing spot.

  And if you have enough altitude. You can never have too much altitude.

Nothing is more useless than fuel on the ground or altitude above you.....or runway behind you...

[RP#62]

You're describing a "dead stick" landing. Yes it can be done with skill and luck of managing your "energy" while finding a suitable landing spot.

  And if you have enough altitude. You can never have too much altitude.

Every licensed pilot should have quite a few ' dead stick' landings under their belts. Problem is that many of them are done/practiced under ideal conditions and then not practiced very often.
When one has to be performed for real, there may be no choice in where to go and no choice in altitude. You just deal with the hand dealt you and try to survive it the best you can.

My instructor used to have a lot of fun with this.  While between other maneuvers or just tooling around he would just pull the throttle back suddenly and say what are you going to do.  He wouldn't give me the throttle back until I had made a decision and committed.  He did it so much you were always thinking about where you'd put it down if the engine quit.  Sometimes the only option is to aim it towards something inexpensive and hope for the best.

-RP

[Patrick]

You're describing a "dead stick" landing. Yes it can be done with skill and luck of managing your "energy" while finding a suitable landing spot.

  And if you have enough altitude. You can never have too much altitude.

Every licensed pilot should have quite a few ' dead stick' landings under their belts. Problem is that many of them are done/practiced under ideal conditions and then not practiced very often.
When one has to be performed for real, there may be no choice in where to go and no choice in altitude. You just deal with the hand dealt you and try to survive it the best you can.

My instructor used to have a lot of fun with this.  While between other maneuvers or just tooling around he would just pull the throttle back suddenly and say what are you going to do.  He wouldn't give me the throttle back until I had made a decision and committed.  He did it so much you were always thinking about where you'd put it down if the engine quit.  Sometimes the only option is to aim it towards something inexpensive and hope for the best.

-RP

You had a good instructor.

[Grumpy]

I had a good one also, always drummed into my head always have a landing site. Pick one out and plan to use it if some thing happens, when you pass over it, pick out another. As he said, most bad crashes come from a failure and spending time trying to restart etc. When they finally figure out it is a lost cause it is too late to find a suitable place to land. He preached, if the engine quits, set up a glide to the place you previously had picked out, when you have done that then try to restart. He got me several times, cutting fuel off, or mags. It was always my plane, he would just sit there and judge. Of course if I blew it, he would take over and recover.

[DirtyDan]

You're describing a "dead stick" landing. Yes it can be done with skill and luck of managing your "energy" while finding a suitable landing spot.

  And if you have enough altitude. You can never have too much altitude.

Nothing is more useless than fuel on the ground or altitude above you.....or runway behind you...

well said Baldo well said

dan