Sometimes you have to pay to play

[..]

2 lane country road. I'm leading 3 bikes.

Came up behind a plain looking Charger.

Lotsa blue lights illuminate and I come to a stop next to the car. It's a GA State Patrol.

He motions me ahead so I pull in front of his car and wait. Give him my license and in return I get a ticket for 64 in a 45. My first "real" ticket. Previous infractions were written for 14 over.

How accurate is the radar in being able to "detect me separately from the 3 bikes behind?

I know for a fact that 2 of them were pushing 80mph catching up from a dawdle moment as the blue lights were revealed.

[old2soon]

When I was still drivin big truck more often than not this worked. If they got me on radar or any other electronic speed detection device I would ask-politely-that the unit that clocked me be sealed and held in evidence against me. They try to argue against that but stand your ground politely. Had them tell me to go on about my business without signing anything and watching the original be destroyed-ticket. Being as you were lead I BELIEVE that is the WHY of you getting the paperwork.  Here in Missouri MOST of the time the sleeper car has an M H P prefix on the plate. Course iffin yer runnin 95 in a 65 by the time it registers you just may as well pull over and listen to the nice officer!  RIDE SAFE.

[Jess from VA]

I'm assuming it was radar and not lidar, since it would be tough for him aiming a handheld lidar over his shoulder while driving.  The radar could have just hit and returned from the closest bike (yours), though it's possible it jumped to the highest speed within range.  Is 19 over high enough for a guy going 80 in a 45?

I cannot see one of your buddies coming to court with you to claim HE is the one that should have got the ticket.  

In VA, you would be lucky to only get a 19 over instead of a 20, as 20 over in VA can be an automatic reckless driving, requiring  personal court appearance and risking jail time (which of course is pure BS!!), but still, a 20 over in VA is 6 points (just like reckless or DUI.... which is also BS)

I don't know how it works down there (or in that particular county), but a lot of times, if you dress up decently, have a pretty good driving record, and show up to court asking for a reduced ticket, you can get one.  That does not work in my county..... here, you plead guilty or go to trial, and when you lose at trial the awards and prizes are doubled (though not the points).

Perhaps someone else has a better opinion on the radar issue.  

As for your possibilities in court, you always have to go to locals (shysters or otherwise) to get the real lowdown.  Although, if you are willing to go spend a morning in that particular court as a watcher (before your date, and make sure it's a traffic case morning), you can often figure out for yourself (and talk to court clerks, locals and maybe the prosecutor).

A technical challenge to radar in court will cost you for counsel and you still risk losing, whereas asking for a break costs nothing, and can get you something (if not a complete win, a reduction).  Now, as I recall you were driving a bus, so I suppose this has CDL issues?  Uh Ohh.  If fighting is necessary, you will need local talent.

Even though I'm a shyster, I have a drawer full of Tshirts on this issue, over my lifetime.  

[..]

Yep I have a CDL License.

[Jersey mike]

I'm assuming it was radar and not lidar, since it would be tough for him aiming a handheld lidar over his shoulder while driving.  The radar could have just hit and returned from the closest bike (yours), though it's possible it jumped to the highest speed within range.  Is 19 over high enough for a guy going 80 in a 45?

I cannot see one of your buddies coming to court with you to claim HE is the one that should have got the ticket.  

In VA, you would be lucky to only get a 19 over instead of a 20, as 20 over in VA can be an automatic reckless driving, requiring  personal court appearance and risking jail time (which of course is pure BS!!), but still, a 20 over in VA is 6 points (just like reckless or DUI.... which is also BS)

I don't know how it works down there (or in that particular county), but a lot of times, if you dress up decently, have a pretty good driving record, and show up to court asking for a reduced ticket, you can get one.  That does not work in my county..... here, you plead guilty or go to trial, and when you lose at trial the awards and prizes are doubled (though not the points).

Perhaps someone else has a better opinion on the radar issue.  

As for your possibilities in court, you always have to go to locals (shysters or otherwise) to get the real lowdown.  Although, if you are willing to go spend a morning in that particular court as a watcher (before your date, and make sure it's a traffic case morning), you can often figure out for yourself (and talk to court clerks, locals and maybe the prosecutor).

A technical challenge to radar in court will cost you for counsel and you still risk losing, whereas asking for a break costs nothing, and can get you something (if not a complete win, a reduction).  Now, as I recall you were driving a bus, so I suppose this has CDL issues?  Uh Ohh.  If fighting is necessary, you will need local talent.

Even though I'm a shyster, I have a drawer full of Tshirts on this issue, over my lifetime.  

About 4yrs ago I was coming home on I-95 from a soccer tournament in NC cruise set at 87 about 10 miles into Va. I come over a crest and suddenly everyone is in the right lane and I'm hung out in the left and get snagged for 17 over. I was nice, polite and still got the 87 in a 70.... Reckless. When I got home I found that points will carry over so I contacted a traffic lawyer. After a few emails and phone calls she was able to get it reduced to instrument malfunction or something like that, I can't remember the exact charge but it was not points but same cost for the ticket plus the lawyer fee which pretty totaled around $1000.00. I should have run the risk of having my Escort Radar detector plugged in even though they are not legal in Va.

[NewValker]

I went 21 years without a speeding award, then a week after I got my VTX, on the way to work in a 30mph zone I got passed by a crotch rocket. State Trooper running radar got him, then pulled me over...WTF??  He said you and your buddy were 20 over, walked away with my paperwork. He returned with a $320.00 ticket. Didn't want to hear that I wasn't with the other bike.
I went to court and contested it. The magistrate listened to my side and asked the Trooper if this was possible? He said maybe, dismissed!  Went riding the rest of that fine day!
Craig

[Jess from VA]

About 4yrs ago I was coming home on I-95 from a soccer tournament in NC cruise set at 87 about 10 miles into Va. I come over a crest and suddenly everyone is in the right lane and I'm hung out in the left and get snagged for 17 over. I was nice, polite and still got the 87 in a 70.... Reckless. When I got home I found that points will carry over so I contacted a traffic lawyer. After a few emails and phone calls she was able to get it reduced to instrument malfunction or something like that, I can't remember the exact charge but it was not points but same cost for the ticket plus the lawyer fee which pretty totaled around $1000.00. I should have run the risk of having my Escort Radar detector plugged in even though they are not legal in Va.

Mike, deals like that may be available downstate and elsewhere, but not in Fairfax County (which thinks, acts, and taxes like it is a bastard child of the Fed).  And BTW, not only is 20 over a discretionary reckless throughout VA, but anything over 80 is also a discretionary reckless.... even in a 70 zone (yes, only 10 over) (also discretionary in either case, is to arrest you on the spot, and tow your car from the scene).  VA traffic law is sometimes like a modern version of the Spanish Inquisition (hold him underwater for an hour.... if he drowns, he's a witch).  

But deals like this are available in many places, if you fork over for local counsel.  It also seems likely deals for folks with good driving/accident records and CDL employment would also be available.  

[cookiedough]

I got lucky once a few years ago coming home from work on the Valk.  Cresting a hill on the hwy., it turns into 2 lanes for a VERY short time and the 2 cars ahead got over to slow/right lane so I goosed the Valk from 55 to near 80 mph and right as I went over the crest of the hill,  a police officer was coming at me going the other way.  SHOOT!  I saw just a glimpse split second the lights go on but was lucky.  There were more cars behind me like 5-6 of them and so since I knew that,  I kept going 80 mph knowing the cop was NOT going to be able to turn around quick enough right away.  About 200 yards down the hill, I turned into my hometown and putzzed around the backroads BEFORE the cop was able to turn around and up and over the crest of the hill to see me turn off the main hwy.

GOT LUCKY! 

I know the speed limit is 55 mph, but not many drive the speed limit anymore and if a chance comes up having a passing lane,  I will take it but gotta remember much over 65 mph passing and the police will nail you for sure.  Problem is,  the Valk (and many other vehicles nowadays) is SOOO easy to go from 55-80 mph in no time flat.

[MarkT]

I had one sorta like that once.  Commuting to work in Golden from Aurora on I70 just west of the Mousetrap there's a lot of swooping sweepers overpasses and exits.  Driving the unfast Exploder but 20 over I'm sure.  Hell everybody is at least 15 over.  Cop set up under an overpass should have been able to catch me easy but he had to merge into traffic.  Right after one of the "swoops" when I was out of sight I jumped onto the exit to turn left on the overpass and take the city roads the rest of the way to work.  The cop went flying by with his lights on to realize I ditched him I'm sure.  Chuckled the rest of the way to work. 

[..]

GA State Patrol Car had no visible LEO markings on the rear. No light bar on roof. Tinted rear windshield so blue lights couldn't be seen until illuminated.

[Wavalk]

I would suggest hiring a local attorney that deals with traffic court.  It will cost you as much as the ticket, but they are very effective in having tickets dismissed.  If not dismissed, they often get the charge reduced to a lower charge that does not effect driving points or CDL's.  Give one a call and inquire over the phone.  Nothing to lose.

[wiggydotcom]

In Illinois, we have "court supervision" that we can ask for if we have no priors. We would still pay the fine but the ticket is dismissed if we keep our nose clean for the next 6 months. And there are no points put on our record.

[vanagon40]

In Illinois, we have "court supervision" that we can ask for if we have no priors. We would still pay the fine but the ticket is dismissed if we keep our nose clean for the next 6 months. And there are no points put on our record.

Such programs are prohibited by federal law for CDL holders.  Most counties in Indiana have similar programs.

[..]

I would suggest hiring a local attorney that deals with traffic court.  It will cost you as much as the ticket, but they are very effective in having tickets dismissed.  If not dismissed, they often get the charge reduced to a lower charge that does not effect driving points or CDL's.  Give one a call and inquire over the phone.  Nothing to lose.

I've already contacted a couple of law offices by email and await phone calls on the morrow.

[art]

I got lucky once a few years ago coming home from work on the Valk.  Cresting a hill on the hwy., it turns into 2 lanes for a VERY short time and the 2 cars ahead got over to slow/right lane so I goosed the Valk from 55 to near 80 mph and right as I went over the crest of the hill,  a police officer was coming at me going the other way.  SHOOT!  I saw just a glimpse split second the lights go on but was lucky.  There were more cars behind me like 5-6 of them and so since I knew that,  I kept going 80 mph knowing the cop was NOT going to be able to turn around quick enough right away.  About 200 yards down the hill, I turned into my hometown and putzzed around the backroads BEFORE the cop was able to turn around and up and over the crest of the hill to see me turn off the main hwy.

GOT LUCKY! 
I did something like that only once and got away with it. Back in 1967 I was leaving my wife place of work on my 66 Norton Atlas. and only doing about 45 when I seen a cop ( get this) come running out of a donut shop to get on his harley. Knowing I could out run him I took off WOT. I went about two miles took a few rights and lefts got off the Norton and went for a walk. Cop never caught me. The only other time I even thought of running was after a street drag the same year with a Dunstal Norton  a cop pulled up along side us. The other guy wanted to run but I said no way. This was on Hollywood Blvd in 67. During those years cop didn't like mc riders. We were all 1%ers.
I know the speed limit is 55 mph, but not many drive the speed limit anymore and if a chance comes up having a passing lane,  I will take it but gotta remember much over 65 mph passing and the police will nail you for sure.  Problem is,  the Valk (and many other vehicles nowadays) is SOOO easy to go from 55-80 mph in no time flat.

[pipecvr@comcast.net]

Many of the Police cars have rear facing radar.

[..]

I've just gone to the online pay yer fine page and I'm quoted $145 plus a $16 convenience fee. No mention of points or anything to do with my CDL license.

Do I just pay the $$$ and tiptoe quietly away and assume no point are to be put on my license. Surley they would have to reveal that on the pay yer fine web site???

[..]

Just spoke with an attorney who specializes in tickets and they are advising me to use them for a cost of $400 plus fine and they will make sure there's no points on my license using whatever legal magic they create.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I've just gone to the online pay yer fine page and I'm quoted $145 plus a $16 convenience fee. No mention of points or anything to do with my CDL license.

Do I just pay the $$$ and tiptoe quietly away and assume no point are to be put on my license. Surley they would have to reveal that on the pay yer fine web site???

It seems like there would be an obligation on their part to reveal any points. But this is the Govt. though. I think I'd do some more checking before paying the lawyer.

[..]

Called the court and a lady told me that there would be 2 points with the fine.

Seems pretty frickin underhand that the pay yer fine web site has no mention of that. 

Looks like I'll be using the attorney.

[Mr Whiskey]

Just spoke with an attorney who specializes in tickets and they are advising me to use them for a cost of $400 plus fine and they will make sure there's no points on my license using whatever legal magic they create.

That's cheap, seriously!

[Jess from VA]

Only 2 points for 19 over sounds wrong.   

I'm going to have to come down and get my tickets in GA from now on.     (Though knowing VA, when the 19 over came through on my record, they'd assign the 4 points VA would give for it)

All States (and many localities) are different, but whatever kind of deal can be had to lose the points, the amount of the fine and costs on the speeding ticket generally remains IN FULL.

The CDL rules (which I don't know) are strict.  If $400 gets rid of the points, and that is necessary for your CDL, then it seems prudent to go that route.

[The emperor has no clothes]

So what is it that lawyers do to annul the points ? No offense to lawyers, but it seems kind of like a racket. If you give your local lawyer some moolah they will grease the skids ?

[Jess from VA]

So what is it that lawyers do to annul the points ? No offense to lawyers, but it seems kind of like a racket. If you give your local lawyer some moolah they will grease the skids ?

A lawyer cannot do anything the judge will not allow.  The deals available have to be offered by the prosecutor, and unrepresented defendants often are unable to get them without counsel.  Unrepresented defendants appear, and plead up or down, if down they have a short trial before being found guilty (usually).  I won a few cases before my education was complete, but this was not fast footwork, I was not in fact guilty of the charge.  I did do a lot of preparation, and had a very good cross examination of the cops worked out.  The judge was amused, the cops were not amused (and followed me right from the courthouse parking lot all the way back to campus trying to catch me do something wrong) (which I though was poor sportsmanship).   

There are pleas in abeyance (plead guilty (and pay), and after a time with no more tickets (or whatever the conditions they set out), the original disappears...case dismissed).  There are (alternate) pleas to things that do not carry points.  There are traffic schools (like in CA) where you take a stupid class, pay in full, and you get the ticket, but no points.  In some states, the judge has the power to suspend points for moving violations that carry points (I never lived in any of these).

In my state, every year you go with no tickets (moving violations), you get one point to the good, up to 5 total.  So if you have saved 3 and get a 3-point ticket, you end up at even.  I have no problem saving up 2 or 3 points, but can never seem to make it any farther without bad karma (or bad judgment).

[..]

I'm going to be using the attorney.

[DirtyDan]

So what is it that lawyers do to annul the points ? No offense to lawyers, but it seems kind of like a racket. If you give your local lawyer some moolah they will grease the skids ?

ohh its a racket alright

you would think if you got a "good" local lawyer he would help. sometimes yes sometimes NO

and sometimes people "complain" about their lawyer, like me......



dan

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

Just spoke with an attorney who specializes in tickets and they are advising me to use them for a cost of $400 plus fine and they will make sure there's no points on my license using whatever legal magic they create.

That's cheap, seriously!

That's almost too cheap ( hope its not a " you get what you pay for " ) ... My last ticket was 72 in a 40 on my bike. Lawyer cost me $1,500 and I had to pay $267.00 court cost... No points case dismissed.... Kinda sad you can buy your ass out of trouble however I'm also glad you can. Points stay on CDL for 3 years / 12 points in 3 yrs. and I'm home selling my toys to keep my house.

[..]

Just spoke with an attorney who specializes in tickets and they are advising me to use them for a cost of $400 plus fine and they will make sure there's no points on my license using whatever legal magic they create.

That's cheap, seriously!

That's almost too cheap ( hope its not a " you get what you pay for " ) ... My last ticket was 72 in a 40 on my bike. Lawyer cost me $1,500 and I had to pay $267.00 court cost... No points case dismissed.... Kinda sad you can buy your ass out of trouble however I'm also glad you can. Points stay on CDL for 3 years / 12 points in 3 yrs. and I'm home selling my toys to keep my house.

I'll have a fine to pay as well.

[Rams]

While the police are interested in enforcing the law, the court's and prosecutor's are only interested in the money.    Of this I have no doubt.

I have received tickets before where I was guilty as charged and I knew it but went in and spoke with the prosecuting attorney before my court appearance and got the charge reduced if I paid the fine in total.    Once got a ticket for running a red light which I didn't believe I had but got a ticket for the light and no seat belt.    Told the prosecutor that I was fighting the ticket because I didn't run the damn light but admitted to not wearing the seat belt.    

She said, OK, I'll drop the red light ticket but you still have to pay the fine plus court costs.   I agreed and left about $300 lighter in my wallet but, no points.

[Jess from VA]

While the police are interested in enforcing the law, the court's and prosecutor's are only interested in the money.

I'm not in total disagreement at all, but there's another way of looking at it.

Police are paid to enforce traffic law and issue citations (among other things).  If they drive around all day and give no tickets they are probably jeopardizing their jobs.  There is certainly an element of esprit de corp, and competitiveness among traffic officers.  Everyone likes to be good and successful at their job, and writing tickets (that hold up in court if necessary) is one measure of good performance.

Courts and prosecutors must administer justice, and often heavy case loads.  Traffic citations (esp. with no culpable injuries to persons or property) are near the bottom of the food chain, importance-wise.  Yes they collectively raise a lot of income, but disposing of them quickly and efficiently is in the courts' and prosecutors' best interests, leaving more time to deal with much more important and complex litigation.  

If a local prosecutor and judge decided to make a federal case out of every traffic citation, made no plea bargains or deals, and the trial rate went from 2-3% to 50-60%, that court would be gridlocked in no time, and both the judge and prosecutor would be in trouble with their superiors.  They would not be seen to be doing a good job at all.  

Everyone agrees serious crimes and criminals should be vigorously prosecuted and sentenced.  No one thinks the average no-injury moving violation needs vigorous condemnation of society or the criminal justice system.  

What gets me upset is the fact that most urban/city areas (with the biggest caseloads of all) tend to deal much more serious violent crime down to peanuts, and peanut sentences, even for repeat offenders.  

None of this discounts the fact that most local courts have a good old boy system where if you come in represented by one of the local attorneys who knows and is known by the local judge and prosecutor, you can likely buy your way out of as much trouble as the guy who just shows up and pleads guilty will get.  I think this has probably been true for as long as we have had courts and judges.  You may recall that the fix was in for Barabas, but Jesus was unrepresented.   So it goes.

One other thing.  Each case where a local (or any) attorney is representing a fellow is mostly handled outside the courtroom.  Once inside the courtroom, the case goes lickety-split quick and dirty. Prosecutors and judges are happy to have the help disposing of cases efficiently, and the reward is good deals for your clients (but in reality, the reward is principally for the attorney, not for the client).  Prosecutors and judges wish everyone was represented.  Of course, everyone cannot afford it... or will not put up with it.    

[Mr Whiskey]

I have received tickets before where I was guilty as charged and I knew it but went in and spoke with the prosecuting attorney before my court appearance and got the charge reduced if I paid the fine in total.

Ditto!
(I call it the "catch & release program".)
I read somewhere once that 99% of people don't go to court over traffic citations but....
of the 1% that do, 99% come out better than if they had just paid the fine. IDK

[..]

The wheels of justice rotated very quickly.

Here's apart of an email I received this afternoon.

"Our office has negotiated a resolution with the Probate court prosecutor. Upon  payment of the Court imposed fine citation no.; xxxxxxxxxx will be reduced to a non-re portable (14 Miles Over) violation, which means nothing will be reported to the Department of Driver Services and you will not incur any points against your driver's license."

Total cost

$400 for attorney to work his legal magic
$145 court fine to b paid by April 4.

[Detn8er]

The wheels of justice rotated very quickly.

Here's apart of an email I received this afternoon.

"Our office has negotiated a resolution with the Probate court prosecutor. Upon  payment of the Court imposed fine citation no.; xxxxxxxxxx will be reduced to a non-re portable (14 Miles Over) violation, which means nothing will be reported to the Department of Driver Services and you will not incur any points against your driver's license."

Total cost

$400 for attorney to work his legal magic
$145 court fine to b paid by April 4.

Money = Magic.....   

[..]

The wheels of justice rotated very quickly.

Here's apart of an email I received this afternoon.

"Our office has negotiated a resolution with the Probate court prosecutor. Upon  payment of the Court imposed fine citation no.; xxxxxxxxxx will be reduced to a non-re portable (14 Miles Over) violation, which means nothing will be reported to the Department of Driver Services and you will not incur any points against your driver's license."

Total cost

$400 for attorney to work his legal magic
$145 court fine to b paid by April 4.

Money = Magic.....   

I figure everyone gets their side of the deal and there's no extra paperwork for the court to faff around with. 

[Mr Whiskey]

Caught, & released

[Hooter]

While the police are interested in enforcing the law, the court's and prosecutor's are only interested in the money.

I'm not in total disagreement at all, but there's another way of looking at it.

Police are paid to enforce traffic law and issue citations (among other things).  If they drive around all day and give no tickets they are probably jeopardizing their jobs.  There is certainly an element of esprit de corp, and competitiveness among traffic officers.  Everyone likes to be good and successful at their job, and writing tickets (that hold up in court if necessary) is one measure of good performance.

Courts and prosecutors must administer justice, and often heavy case loads.  Traffic citations (esp. with no culpable injuries to persons or property) are near the bottom of the food chain, importance-wise.  Yes they collectively raise a lot of income, but disposing of them quickly and efficiently is in the courts' and prosecutors' best interests, leaving more time to deal with much more important and complex litigation.  

If a local prosecutor and judge decided to make a federal case out of every traffic citation, made no plea bargains or deals, and the trial rate went from 2-3% to 50-60%, that court would be gridlocked in no time, and both the judge and prosecutor would be in trouble with their superiors.  They would not be seen to be doing a good job at all.  

Everyone agrees serious crimes and criminals should be vigorously prosecuted and sentenced.  No one thinks the average no-injury moving violation needs vigorous condemnation of society or the criminal justice system.  

What gets me upset is the fact that most urban/city areas (with the biggest caseloads of all) tend to deal much more serious violent crime down to peanuts, and peanut sentences, even for repeat offenders.  

None of this discounts the fact that most local courts have a good old boy system where if you come in represented by one of the local attorneys who knows and is known by the local judge and prosecutor, you can likely buy your way out of as much trouble as the guy who just shows up and pleads guilty will get.  I think this has probably been true for as long as we have had courts and judges.  You may recall that the fix was in for Barabas, but Jesus was unrepresented.   So it goes.

One other thing.  Each case where a local (or any) attorney is representing a fellow is mostly handled outside the courtroom.  Once inside the courtroom, the case goes lickety-split quick and dirty. Prosecutors and judges are happy to have the help disposing of cases efficiently, and the reward is good deals for your clients (but in reality, the reward is principally for the attorney, not for the client).  Prosecutors and judges wish everyone was represented.  Of course, everyone cannot afford it... or will not put up with it.    

    Tickets promote safety in all areas especially where speeding is an every day all day problem. We all have those areas in our towns. I used to assign patrol to certain areas where we had received the most citizen complaints. But we already know these problem areas and have to keep a reign on them. I never got a call from anyone claiming that traffic was moving too slow on their street.
As for BRITMAN: Kinda screwed if you were the lead bike. Yours would be the first speed picked up by the radar especially if the group was a ways behind you and trying to catch up. (Not knowing the road conditions, officer position, other traffic in the area makes it hard to get a handle on this) My radar used to "skip search". By that I may (and I say may) get your speed first and then whats approaching behind your vehicle as well. So if you were doing say 73 and the rest of the group was doing 80 I may get their speed as well?  It would bounce between the 73 and 80.
    I would have to visually see what is going on to make a judgement. For me where there is a  question in my mind about what is going on I probably would have stopped all of you and chewed your butts and let you go. Uncertainty in court isn't a good way to go for an officer.  
    

[MP]

I've just gone to the online pay yer fine page and I'm quoted $145 plus a $16 convenience fee. No mention of points or anything to do with my CDL license.

Do I just pay the $$$ and tiptoe quietly away and assume no point are to be put on my license. Surley they would have to reveal that on the pay yer fine web site???

19 over?  AND, you have a CDL?  Do EVERYTHING you can to get that reduced.  More than 15 over on a CDL is a major offense.  Only TWO such will get you a suspension of your CDL.  I believe the time frame is two years.  So, if one year from now, you get another of the major offenses, which include bad lane changes, you will be out of work for a while.    FIGHT IT!  Work a deal to get it reduced.  Sometimes they will reduce the speed to 14 over, and pay the same fine.

Do NOT pay without talking to a trucking lawyer.