Dampers

[Fazer]

I have been researching, on this forum, the procedures for servicing the final drive and a few of the posts have referred to replacing the wheel dampers.  I see them in the photos attached to the various posts.  What is the purpose of these dampers, and how does one know they need to be replaced, or this a time/mileage interval maintenance issue?  I have 20,000 on my '98 and don't notice anything wrong with the rear end.  I just bought a set of five O rings for the final drive, that should keep me healthy for quite a while.  Should I be laying in a stock of dampers as well?

Also, is there a definitive lubricant for the splines?  I have the Honda moly paste.

[hubcapsc]

I have been researching, on this forum, the procedures for servicing the final drive and a few of the posts have referred to replacing the wheel dampers.  I see them in the photos attached to the various posts.  What is the purpose of these dampers, and how does one know they need to be replaced, or this a time/mileage interval maintenance issue?  I have 20,000 on my '98 and don't notice anything wrong with the rear end.  I just bought a set of five O rings for the final drive, that should keep me healthy for quite a while.  Should I be laying in a stock of dampers as well?

Also, is there a definitive lubricant for the splines?  I have the Honda moly paste.

The dampers are kind of "shock absorbers" for the driveline... my 1972 Yamaha
100 had them... we'd supplement them with "silicone seal" (RTV) when they'd
get loose 'cause we were kids and it was hard to buy new ones... if you let
them get too worn out you could ruin your hub... I did...

Look at yours next time you're in there... if there's a bunch of rubber dust
in there or they seem real loose, get new ones... the "new style" ones from
Interstates are cheaper and probably better, surely as good.

06410-MBH-000    DAMPER SET, WHEEL    $33.48

-Mike

[98valk]

the purpose of damper actually known as a Cush Drive.

A cush drive is a part of a motorcycle or scooter drive-train that is designed to reduce stress from engine torque damaging other components during gear or throttle changes. A common design used by almost all street motorcycles, it has three major pieces: the wheel, the sprocket assembly, and the rubber damper. The wheel and the sprocket assembly fit together with five or more sections much like two hands woven together. In between the contact of the two assembly are rubber blocks. This makes it so the wheel and the sprocket have a dampening layer between them, and the rubber blocks reduce wear and fatigue of the metal assemblies. Another popular system incorporates metallic compression type coil springs placed between the input and output shafts of the cush drive assembly.

The cush drive was invented by Royal Enfield in 1912[1] for use on their 425cc V-twin.[2]

earlier models like your 98 have a hard rubber type damper. The part # given is the later better poly type ones to use, I think they first came in the I/S models

more reading

http://www.dogpile.com/search/web?fcoid=417&fcop=topnav&fpid=27&q=DO+I+REALLY+NEED+A+CUSH+DRIVE+HUB%3F&ql=

[Fazer]

Good stuff guys, thanks.  This is what makes the forum great.

[Bighead]

And RIDE that bike! 20k on a 98 made just over 1100 a year she deserves better treatment than that

[sandy]

Now put that moly paste on the shelf and get a tub of Bel Ray Waterproof grease. The paste isn't waterproof and doesn't last the life of a rear tire. I have 153K on my 98 and still have the original drive unit splines. Always have used Bel Ray. Nearly all MC service shops use B R too.

[John Schmidt]

You mentioned you have five new o-rings, not sure what you have but a complete service takes three each time. You might want to expand on that a bit so we know what you're dealing with.

[pancho]

Hey Fazer,, next time you have the rear wheel off, remove the damper retaining plate and take one out and examine the condition, also note how firmly they fit the pockets in the wheel. You will know if they need replaced or not, but if they are original, they are ready to be replaced as they will be hard as a rock and fit loosely in the pockets.

They are not too expensive, and replacement will make a noticeable improvement in smoothness.

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Motorcycle/1998/GL1500CT+A/REAR+WHEEL/parts.html

Read the service manual for recommended lubricants in the final drive Fazer,, Moly paste for the driven flange and splines, moly grease for the pinion cup and drive line.

[farmer998]

I just did a 76000 mile service.  I needed to replace the rear tire (went to a Taxi tire) and decided to change the bearings due to one having a bit of play.  I also replaced the dampers.  They looked fine but when I bought a new set as a back up I tried one and found that the old ones were real loose compared to new ones so I replaced them.  I bought some Guard Dog spline lube and new O rings.  After all the improvements the ride was incredible and SMOOTH.  Not sure if 1 or all of the work was the answer.

[The emperor has no clothes]

You mentioned you have five new o-rings, not sure what you have but a complete service takes three each time. You might want to expand on that a bit so we know what you're dealing with.

He probably got the 5 pack of o-rings from Carolina Bike and Trike.

[Ramie]

Check out ChrisJ write up in the shoptalk section on servicing the rear end before you start.

[Gryphon Rider]

Now put that moly paste on the shelf and get a tub of Bel Ray Waterproof grease. The paste isn't waterproof and doesn't last the life of a rear tire. I have 153K on my 98 and still have the original drive unit splines. Always have used Bel Ray. Nearly all MC service shops use B R too.

Send your Honda moly to me. I'll use it as recommended by Honda and continue to have good splines.

[Fazer]

John--good catch, but Meathead said it above.  I should have written correctly that I had five sets of the three o rings from Carolina Bike.

Thanks to all that have commented.  I have reviewed the rear end service write up on shoptalk.  Do not want to get into the pinion cup unless necessary.  I have not had the wheel of yet, so that will be a learning experience, and I will check the dampeners when I have it off, but the ride seems just fine as it is, so am hoping the dampeners are still ok.  I was going to wait until the tire needs replacing, but since I bought the bike last August, I do not know what the PO's may have done.  I had a new E3 installed in August and the dealership said they would re-lube, but who knows.  The E3 still has lots of miles left on it.

Big Head--it had 17000 on it when I bought in August 2015.  I put 3000 since then, mostly while the weather was still good, so I have been riding and will ride as much as possible.  To work every day, but it's only six miles.  You guys with 30+ miles commute are LUCKY ha ha.

[hubcapsc]

You guys with 30+ miles commute are LUCKY ha ha.

Riding the 16 miles to work, and then back later, couldn't
be more enjoyable 





-Mike

[Steve K (IA)]

Now put that moly paste on the shelf and get a tub of Bel Ray Waterproof grease. The paste isn't waterproof and doesn't last the life of a rear tire. I have 153K on my 98 and still have the original drive unit splines. Always have used Bel Ray. Nearly all MC service shops use B R too.

on the BelRay

[Steve K (IA)]

Hey Fazer,, next time you have the rear wheel off, remove the damper retaining plate and take one out and examine the condition, also note how firmly they fit the pockets in the wheel. You will know if they need replaced or not, but if they are original, they are ready to be replaced as they will be hard as a rock and fit loosely in the pockets.

They are not too expensive, and replacement will make a noticeable improvement in smoothness.

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Motorcycle/1998/GL1500CT+A/REAR+WHEEL/parts.html

Read the service manual for recommended lubricants in the final drive Fazer,, Moly paste for the driven flange and splines, moly grease for the pinion cup and drive line.

Pancho, I think you listed the 2 piece damper sets that will cost a total of $83.17.  With these sets, you need to buy the rubber dampers...$30.32 and the aluminum inserts...$10.75 x 5 = $52.75 + $30.32 = $83.17 to make a complete set.

Fazer and everyone else just needs to buy the dampers listed for the I/S... $32.75. 
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Motorcycle/2000/GL1500CF+A/REAR+WHEEL/parts.html
(item #1)

I know, I made this mistake several years ago.  Ordered for my '97 Std and ended up with just the rubbers.     Turned around and got the ones for an I/S and got the complete set.   

[Fazer]

Thanks Steve K.  I have the link saved.  BTW, love your avatar.

[..]

Please don't rely on the dealership to remove all the old grease with the care you might.

Nor rely on them to apply new grease with the care you might.

I know most of us "old timers" on this forum are scrupulous about getting the old grease off with some using toothpicks and toothbrushes to get into the small areas.

[pancho]

Hey Fazer,, next time you have the rear wheel off, remove the damper retaining plate and take one out and examine the condition, also note how firmly they fit the pockets in the wheel. You will know if they need replaced or not, but if they are original, they are ready to be replaced as they will be hard as a rock and fit loosely in the pockets.

They are not too expensive, and replacement will make a noticeable improvement in smoothness.

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Motorcycle/1998/GL1500CT+A/REAR+WHEEL/parts.html

Read the service manual for recommended lubricants in the final drive Fazer,, Moly paste for the driven flange and splines, moly grease for the pinion cup and drive line.

Pancho, I think you listed the 2 piece damper sets that will cost a total of $83.17.  With these sets, you need to buy the rubber dampers...$30.32 and the aluminum inserts...$10.75 x 5 = $52.75 + $30.32 = $83.17 to make a complete set.

Fazer and everyone else just needs to buy the dampers listed for the I/S... $32.75. 
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Motorcycle/2000/GL1500CF+A/REAR+WHEEL/parts.html
(item #1)

I know, I made this mistake several years ago.  Ordered for my '97 Std and ended up with just the rubbers.     Turned around and got the ones for an I/S and got the complete set.   

Good catch Steve K,,,  I think when I ordered a set a couple of years ago, I did have to push out the old inserts and reuse them. 

[Safety Steve]

Steve K , you talk about inserts, what part number is that on the link that you gave, I'm thinking of replacing my dampers also and I just want to make sure I have everything before I start...

Thank you

Steve

[Fazer]

Please don't rely on the dealership to remove all the old grease with the care you might.

Nor rely on them to apply new grease with the care you might.

I know most of us "old timers" on this forum are scrupulous about getting the old grease off with some using toothpicks and toothbrushes to get into the small areas.
Posted on: Yesterday at 08:34:25 AM Posted by: Fazer

Britman--Bingo!  Exactly what I am thinking and why I am planning on doing this before the tire needs replacing.  Besides, I want to learn how to remove the rear wheel.

[Chrisj CMA]

Now put that moly paste on the shelf and get a tub of Bel Ray Waterproof grease. The paste isn't waterproof and doesn't last the life of a rear tire. I have 153K on my 98 and still have the original drive unit splines. Always have used Bel Ray. Nearly all MC service shops use B R too.

Send your Honda moly to me. I'll use it as recommended by Honda and continue to have good splines.

If you do the rear splines right and often, you can use just about anything and the splines will last a long time.  However, that tube says right on it to use it as grease, not paste and I called mother Honda and verified (they admitted) they don't use that grease at any of their factory supervised shops.  They just sell it, they don't use it.

[Gryphon Rider]

Now put that moly paste on the shelf and get a tub of Bel Ray Waterproof grease. The paste isn't waterproof and doesn't last the life of a rear tire. I have 153K on my 98 and still have the original drive unit splines. Always have used Bel Ray. Nearly all MC service shops use B R too.

Send your Honda moly to me. I'll use it as recommended by Honda and continue to have good splines.

If you do the rear splines right and often, you can use just about anything and the splines will last a long time.  However, that tube says right on it to use it as grease, not paste and I called mother Honda and verified (they admitted) they don't use that grease at any of their factory supervised shops.  They just sell it, they don't use it.

So, did you ask them what they DO use and recommend?

[Chrisj CMA]

Now put that moly paste on the shelf and get a tub of Bel Ray Waterproof grease. The paste isn't waterproof and doesn't last the life of a rear tire. I have 153K on my 98 and still have the original drive unit splines. Always have used Bel Ray. Nearly all MC service shops use B R too.

Send your Honda moly to me. I'll use it as recommended by Honda and continue to have good splines.

If you do the rear splines right and often, you can use just about anything and the splines will last a long time.  However, that tube says right on it to use it as grease, not paste and I called mother Honda and verified (they admitted) they don't use that grease at any of their factory supervised shops.  They just sell it, they don't use it.

So, did you ask them what they DO use and recommend?

Actually they called me in response, I wrote to them, but while  I had the woman on the phone I asked if they used anything specific.....she didn't have an answer, when I mentioned Guard Dog, she seemed to know the brand.  When I mentioned Belray Waterproof she admitted to knowing that many authorized Honda shops did use that.  I ended by saying that when I took my factory OEM tire off (presumably the first tire change since factory) the grease seemed really thick.  A lot thicker than the Belray or the Honda 60  she just said Yeah.  It was like she wasn't allowed to tell me what they use.

In my letter my main complaint about the Honda 60 was that it was really grease and was marketed as paste and that it was not very waterproof.  She did say I was exactly right but they still sell it because its all they have to offer with a Honda label and there hadn't been enough complaints about it.  She didn't say there were NO complaints, just not enough to engineer a new product and market it .  

Do what you wish, its your machine.

[Fazer]

Based on Chris's comments, I think I will get the Bell Ray product. 

[hubcapsc]

I just jumped through hoops with msds.com to get the Material Data
Safety Sheet for moly 60... you have to promise not to redistribute the sheet, but you don't
have to promise not to talk about it...

Moly 60 is composed of (by weight) 50-60% petroleum oil, 10-20% moly, 1-10% lithium.

Its chemical and physical properties include: physical state - paste, solubility in water - insoluble

Honda, of course, doesn't make moly 60... Honda now has (maybe they don't have moly 60 anymore)
"M-77", I got its sheet too, and it is 50-70% moly...

-Mike

[98valk]

I just jumped through hoops with msds.com to get the Material Data
Safety Sheet for moly 60... you have to promise not to redistribute the sheet, but you don't
have to promise not to talk about it...

Moly 60 is composed of (by weight) 50-60% petroleum oil, 10-20% moly, 1-10% lithium.

Its chemical and physical properties include: physical state - paste, solubility in water - insoluble

Honda, of course, doesn't make moly 60... Honda now has (maybe they don't have moly 60 anymore)
"M-77", I got its sheet too, and it is 50-70% moly...

-Mike

good find.
I use TS-moly 70% paste
http://www.tsmoly.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_7&products_id=93

and
their grease
http://www.tsmoly.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_2&products_id=53

[pancho]

Does Bel Ray grease have Molybdenum disulfide in it?    There are reasons why Honda and every other manufacturer of equipment that uses splines in the world, recommend high content moly grease or paste on the splines.  Read the service manual to see what Honda wants on those splines, Google  molybdenum disulfide, google spline lubrication.

Chris, while I somewhat agree that "If you do the rear splines right and often, you can use just about anything",    but why not go with the ultimate protection of moly paste,, Honda and every other equipment builder in the world cannot be wrong,, and some do not do the lube "often".

Honda specifies a spline paste moly 60 ("moly"). Moly is a dry lubricant which bonds to the metal surfaces, offering lubrication properties even when the parts have squeezed everything liquid out. A lot of greases now say "Moly" on the container, but you must be careful about this. Ford and Caterpillar specify moly greases for particular applications, but the requirement is for 3% moly, not even close to the requirement of Honda. It's not enough to buy a moly grease, what you really want is basically dry moly in a grease-like carrier which makes it easier to apply.

I found that last comment on the web, but I agree.

[Fazer]

The Bel Ray web page shows a moly high temp grease they call Molylube 65.  Why don't all the Bell Ray lovers use this rather than the waterproof grease?  There are several moly greases, but this one is referred to as 65.  Does that mean it is 65% moly?

http://www.belray.com/molylube-high-temperature-grease

[98valk]

Does Bel Ray grease have Molybdenum disulfide in it?    There are reasons why Honda and every other manufacturer of equipment that uses splines in the world, recommend high content moly grease or paste on the splines.  Read the service manual to see what Honda wants on those splines, Google  molybdenum disulfide, google spline lubrication.

Chris, while I somewhat agree that "If you do the rear splines right and often, you can use just about anything",    but why not go with the ultimate protection of moly paste,, Honda and every other equipment builder in the world cannot be wrong,, and some do not do the lube "often".

Honda specifies a spline paste moly 60 ("moly"). Moly is a dry lubricant which bonds to the metal surfaces, offering lubrication properties even when the parts have squeezed everything liquid out. A lot of greases now say "Moly" on the container, but you must be careful about this. Ford and Caterpillar specify moly greases for particular applications, but the requirement is for 3% moly, not even close to the requirement of Honda. It's not enough to buy a moly grease, what you really want is basically dry moly in a grease-like carrier which makes it easier to apply.

I found that last comment on the web, but I agree.

 

[98valk]

The Bel Ray web page shows a moly high temp grease they call Molylube 65.  Why don't all the Bell Ray lovers use this rather than the waterproof grease?  There are several moly greases, but this one is referred to as 65.  Does that mean it is 65% moly?

http://www.belray.com/molylube-high-temperature-grease

according to this only 20% and u don't know what is it
"It is formulated with molybdenum disulfide, or moly, graphite lubricating solids,"
http://www.belray.com/sites/default/files/pds_files/Molylube%20High%20Temperature%20Grease_5.pdf

[Fazer]

according to this only 20% and u don't know what is it
"It is formulated with molybdenum disulfide, or moly, graphite lubricating solids,"
http://www.belray.com/sites/default/files/pds_files/Molylube%20High%20Temperature%20Grease_5.pdf

So we know Honda specifies moly paste, but the Bell Ray products have either no moly, or maybe 20% moly.  What about Guard Dog?  Their 570 indicates it is used for splines.  Pricey stuff at $31 for 4 oz.  How much does it take?

[Chrisj CMA]

Does Bel Ray grease have Molybdenum disulfide in it?    There are reasons why Honda and every other manufacturer of equipment that uses splines in the world, recommend high content moly grease or paste on the splines.  Read the service manual to see what Honda wants on those splines, Google  molybdenum disulfide, google spline lubrication.

Chris, while I somewhat agree that "If you do the rear splines right and often, you can use just about anything",    but why not go with the ultimate protection of moly paste,, Honda and every other equipment builder in the world cannot be wrong,, and some do not do the lube "often".

Honda specifies a spline paste moly 60 ("moly"). Moly is a dry lubricant which bonds to the metal surfaces, offering lubrication properties even when the parts have squeezed everything liquid out. A lot of greases now say "Moly" on the container, but you must be careful about this. Ford and Caterpillar specify moly greases for particular applications, but the requirement is for 3% moly, not even close to the requirement of Honda. It's not enough to buy a moly grease, what you really want is basically dry moly in a grease-like carrier which makes it easier to apply.

I found that last comment on the web, but I agree.

I showed exactly what I use in my slide show.  I put a light coat of Guard Dog 525 (which is their version of grease but its thicker than the honda 60) then a bunch of Lucas high pressure farm equipment grease.  I don't feel like being  in a drawn out grease thread, like the old oil threads.  Use what seems best to you, I just wanted to make it clear that even Honda does not like that tube stuff 60 paste, but if you like it use it, just don't expect me to agree with you.

[hubcapsc]

Does Bel Ray grease have Molybdenum disulfide in it?    There are reasons why Honda and every other manufacturer of equipment that uses splines in the world, recommend high content moly grease or paste on the splines.  Read the service manual to see what Honda wants on those splines, Google  molybdenum disulfide, google spline lubrication.

Chris, while I somewhat agree that "If you do the rear splines right and often, you can use just about anything",    but why not go with the ultimate protection of moly paste,, Honda and every other equipment builder in the world cannot be wrong,, and some do not do the lube "often".

Honda specifies a spline paste moly 60 ("moly"). Moly is a dry lubricant which bonds to the metal surfaces, offering lubrication properties even when the parts have squeezed everything liquid out. A lot of greases now say "Moly" on the container, but you must be careful about this. Ford and Caterpillar specify moly greases for particular applications, but the requirement is for 3% moly, not even close to the requirement of Honda. It's not enough to buy a moly grease, what you really want is basically dry moly in a grease-like carrier which makes it easier to apply.

I found that last comment on the web, but I agree.

I use moly paste on my splines - it says so in the book!

Others ride hard, put on lots of miles, and use that blue waterproof
belray grease, and some of them have perfect splines...

-Mike "mine show a tiny bit of wear on the contact side of each spline"

[Steve K (IA)]

Steve K , you talk about inserts, what part number is that on the link that you gave, I'm thinking of replacing my dampers also and I just want to make sure I have everything before I start...

Thank you

Steve

Steve,  First off, the rubber dampers for all Valks are the same.  If you order for a '97, '98, '99 Std or Tourer, the sets are 2 piece.  Rubbers and aluminum inserts have to be bought separate.  When they arrive, you have to push the inserts into the rubber dampers.  This is terribly expensive.
Just order a damper set for a 2000 Interstate for around $30.00 and they come complete with the inserts molded into the rubber. 

The all in one set...DAMPER SET, WHEEL  06410-MBH-000  $32.75  5 rubber dampers with inserts molded in.

Just the rubber...DAMPER SET, WHEEL  06410-MAH-A60  $30.32 for all 5 rubber dampers

The inserts...PIECE, DAMPER WHEEL  41242-MR5-000  $10.57 x 5

You can see there is a huge price difference.

[Safety Steve]

Thank you Steve K for the information.

Steve.