I think my right foot panicked

[Carl]

I was on the freeway, heading home from work.  Typical traffic.  Speed up, slow down.  Minimum about 25 mph.  I was definately paying too much attention to the guy behind me.  A drop back then speed up driver.  Look up at the cars in front, they are stopping.  I knew it was going to be a quick stop, but not a panic stop.  I even got lined up too lane split if necessary.  All of a sudden my rear wheel is sliding out to the right.  Next thing I know my bike is on its left side.  It started to fall to the right, but I must have put my leg out to catch it, because it ended up on its left side.  I honestly don't think I did anything unusual.  I have certainly had cause to make that kind of stop before.  But for the life of me I cannot understand what went wrong.  I replay it and still can't figure it out.  Maybe I hit a grease spot that I didnt see.  Dirt maybe. I don't  know.  Or, like I said in the title.  Maybe I did panic a little, and hit the rear brake too hard, but didn't realize it.

I'm okay for the most part.  Scrapped up elbow, and sore right knee, bruised ego. The knee is swelling, may be bruised.  The bike has minor damage.  Scrapped up the bottom edge of my new leather bags.  Broke the left highway peg.  Somehow the handle bars got pushed down, but I can't  find any scrapes anywhere.  Must have been from my own weight.  I did go forward a bit as the bike was finding its way down.

Rode home with no problems.  Ran some errands on the bike.  I do feel lucky, different circumstances could have made it a lot worse.  Once again I have been taught a lesson in respect.

Thanks for listening.

[MP]

Glad to hear you are OK.  Crud happens. I forgot to put my foot down once!

[The emperor has no clothes]

More front brake and less rear.

[Carl]

I really don't think I'm a heavy rear brake person.  At least going by what others have told me they do.  Maybe I'm  mistaken, or need to reevaluate.  I have done parking lot drills for emergency braking, but never enough to make the bike squirrely.  Maybe I need to practice harder.

[_Sheffjs_]

I really don't think I'm a heavy rear brake person.  At least going by what others have told me they do.  Maybe I'm  mistaken, or need to reevaluate.  I have done parking lot drills for emergency braking, but never enough to make the bike squirrely.  Maybe I need to practice harder.

Can I ask if you run a MT or CT?

[cookiedough]

I doubt it was your rear brake pushing it down all the way.

I could be wrong or it just might be my Valk I/S., but even with new brake pads put on last year, I doubt, at least on my cycle,  the rear brakes alone have enough stopping power if pressed down hard to cause the bike to slide sideways.  I use my rear brakes a lot though along with front brakes at the same time and think 75% of my stopping power comes from my front brakes, although I am not a heavy braking person  normally slowing down slowly  well in advance since my route is similar each day. 

[Jess Tolbirt]

i think you possibly hit a slick spot, could have been a simple little water spot...if you was to hit the spot with the front tire and it locked up you are going down and same for the rear.. as far as the handle bars go i think maybe yu were on the front brake, hit a slick spot, the tire locked up,, you slid a little sideways and then the tire got traction again and began to stop you quicker and your weight pushed the handle bars down just before you hit the ground,,, my bottom line is this, you didnt get hurt and are here to talk about it,,, nothing really lost but the ego and it will return pretty soon,,,glad you are ok...

[havoc]

good to hear you aren't too badly hurt. nothing worse than not being sure exactly what happened

[Chrisj CMA]

More front brake and less rear.

+1 cannot say this enough times. 

[BobB]

One can practice panic stopping all they want, but if they do not reach for the front brake lever for ALL stops they will not train themselves to react with the front brake when it is necessary.  If one has to think about the front brake, it's probably to late.  I hope that made sense.  I'm probably to light on the rear.

Glad you were not seriously injured...

[The emperor has no clothes]

One can practice panic stopping all they want, but if they do not reach for the front brake lever for ALL stops they will not train themselves to react with the front brake when it is necessary.  If one has to think about the front brake, it's probably to late.  I hope that made sense.  I'm probably to light on the rear...

I couldn't agree more. I am also probably too light on the rear brake. And for anybody that thinks they can't make the back slide out using the rear brake. All I can say is you either have something wrong with the rear brake or you don't ride .

[Willow]

I agree with Jess.  A slick spot can put you into a surprise skid.

For Cookiedough, you need to get your rear brake fixed or ride more Valkyries.  The rear brake will definitely bring the rear around on most Valkyries.

That said, to the question of whether he's using a MT or CT, if a "Car tire" will bring the rear around you would be riding on the wrong "car tire".  That's one of the basic differences of having a flat surface on the road.

Yes, the front brake is most of your stopping power and it won't bring the rear end around.

I'm glad you came out of it without more serious damage.

[Carl]

I appreciate all the input.  It helps, as I try to evaluate the things I could have done better.

I use a motorcycle tire on the rear. 

Jess - the more I replay the accident the more I am inclined to your assessment.  This was not a panic stop.  Quick yes, panic no.  There could have been some outside force that was working against me.  Maybe it was just the motorcycle Gods deciding it was time to shake me up a bit.

BobB - I am a front brake person.  Rears are not used as the main stopping mechanism.  I guess it's like any sport - you can practice all you want, but come game time, everything changes.

[DarkSideR]

I practice high speed stops, with a car tire I can lock up the rear and have not had it swing out. Doesn't help you now, but may be something to consider in the future. Heal well and hope you get your bike back on the road soon.

[Chrisj CMA]

I practice high speed stops, with a car tire I can lock up the rear and have not had it swing out. Doesn't help you now, but may be something to consider in the future. Heal well and hope you get your bike back on the road soon.

I have nothing against car tires, even though I joke about them.  One should still practice and rely on the front brakes primarily during a panic stop.  Just because the car tire seems to increase braking efficiency at the rear is no reason to abandon proper technique

[DarkSideR]

I practice high speed stops, with a car tire I can lock up the rear and have not had it swing out. Doesn't help you now, but may be something to consider in the future. Heal well and hope you get your bike back on the road soon.

I have nothing against car tires, even though I joke about them.  One should still practice and rely on the front brakes primarily during a panic stop.  Just because the car tire seems to increase braking efficiency at the rear is no reason to abandon proper technique

Oh trust me I still appropriately use the front brake, I was just emphasizing that when the rear wheel is locked up with a car tire the back end doesn't step out.

[MP]

For almost all braking, I use the front brake exclusively. That way, in an emergency, it is natural to use it.

[DarkSideR]

For almost all braking, I use the front brake exclusively. That way, in an emergency, it is natural to use it.

Pardon me but your statement about only using the front brake needs to be addressed respectively for the safety of yourself, and for others reading your post.

If panicked and you lock the front brake (which you will if you only use the front) you are 100% guaranteed to go down. Best practice of panic braking is to apply both brakes. The rear brake should be applied to the point just before lock up. The front brake is then used to control the stop under the given conditions. This should be practiced in straight line and braking while in a corner. But lets be clear, never in any circumstances should only the front brake be used, and respectively advocating the use of only the front brake should not be practiced.

What should be practiced is braking techniques. Emergency braking is dangerous in any condition, thus riders should regularly practice their braking techniques.

http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/advanced-motorcycle-braking

[The emperor has no clothes]

Well at the risk of insinuating you are a Butt Nugget (joke). I locked up my front once and didn't go down. A tourist in Yosemite decided to cut across 4 lanes for an empty parking spot. It scared the crap out of me though. I think it's the only time except for dirt riding .

[DarkSideR]

Well at the risk of insinuating you are a Butt Nugget (joke). I locked up my front once and didn't go down. A tourist in Yosemite decided to cut across 4 lanes for an empty parking spot. It scared the crap out of me though. I think it's the only time except for dirt riding .

Then I will revise my statement to 99.9% of the time. Either way not good practice.

[MP]

For almost all braking, I use the front brake exclusively. That way, in an emergency, it is natural to use it.

Pardon me but your statement about only using the front brake needs to be addressed respectively for the safety of yourself, and for others reading your post.

If panicked and you lock the front brake (which you will if you only use the front) you are 100% guaranteed to go down. Best practice of panic braking is to apply both brakes. The rear brake should be applied to the point just before lock up. The front brake is then used to control the stop under the given conditions. This should be practiced in straight line and braking while in a corner. But lets be clear, never in any circumstances should only the front brake be used, and respectively advocating the use of only the front brake should not be practiced.

What should be practiced is braking techniques. Emergency braking is dangerous in any condition, thus riders should regularly practice their braking techniques.

http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/advanced-motorcycle-braking

I should not have used the term exclusively.  I use it every time I use a brake, except for drag braking at slow speed.  I do use the rear pedal too, but for a small per cent of the braking effort.  Wrong term used. Not enough coffee earlier!  LOL

[Willow]

Well at the risk of insinuating you are a Butt Nugget (joke). I locked up my front once and didn't go down. A tourist in Yosemite decided to cut across 4 lanes for an empty parking spot. It scared the crap out of me though. I think it's the only time except for dirt riding .

Then I will revise my statement to 99.9% of the time. Either way not good practice.

Meathead, did you say that scared the butt nuggets out of you?

Josh, are you sure that percentage isn't closer to 99.3%?  If you lock that front in anything other than straight line travel the odds of a dismount are pretty good.

I agree that both brakes are best.  Anything less is settling for less than 100% of your braking power, no?

[DarkSideR]

I should not have used the term exclusively.  I use it every time I use a brake, except for drag braking at slow speed.  I do use the rear pedal too, but for a small per cent of the braking effort.  Wrong term used. Not enough coffee earlier!  LOL

Awe, I now see how I misinterpreted your comment, but it was easy to misinterpret.

Carl, okay I will concede. 99.3% is a much closer number.

[Atl-Jerry]

I know the perception with a car tire is that you have this huge contact patch for incredible braking, but that's not always the case.  After putting on my first GY Triple Tread about 12 or 13 years ago, I had an FSU Coed make a left turn in front of me.  I did lock the rear tire in the process, avoided her car and didn't go down.  It was a large intersection with a fair bit of oil and grease on the road behind the stop bars.  I think that's what started the skid and it continued well into the intersection.  Afterwards I was surprised how narrow the skid mark was.  With the slightest lean of the bike and the crown of the road you're not going to have the full face of that tire in contact with the road at all times.   

[Wizzard]

I was riding 2 up across Nebraska 3 years ago on I80 in the left lane and someone swung into my lane so quick (they did no see me) that I locked up the front tire and skidded so far my tire smoked for a bit.
I survived with no damage and I had a trailer behind me. Wife thought it was incredible we stayed upright.
That tire was not the only skid marks that day 

[_Sheffjs_]

Some time ago, after my first CT was installed I did a test. My brakes were somewhat new and I rebuilt the calipers a short time before the test as well. At 55 on a nice country road (good pavement and I told my wife about the test before hand) I said hang on. I stood on the rear brake only, no gears no front brake and I was massively impressed in every way with the results.  I agree that there is not much contact when in a lean however I can't help but wonder if there are instances where our CT riders would have gone down with a MT and don't even realize that the CT saved the day. I could be falsely confident however I feel so much better on a CT in the rain.  Now for the hypocrite part. I do not run CT on the 1800c, and I don't think I want to.   

[The emperor has no clothes]

Well at the risk of insinuating you are a Butt Nugget (joke). I locked up my front once and didn't go down. A tourist in Yosemite decided to cut across 4 lanes for an empty parking spot. It scared the crap out of me though. I think it's the only time except for dirt riding .

Then I will revise my statement to 99.9% of the time. Either way not good practice.

Meathead, did you say that scared the butt nuggets out of you?

Josh, are you sure that percentage isn't closer to 99.3%?  If you lock that front in anything other than straight line travel the odds of a dismount are pretty good.

I agree that both brakes are best.  Anything less is settling for less than 100% of your braking power, no?

Well if you must know, the answer is YES. And as a follow up question, do have any idea of the exorbitant rates they charge for new underwear in Yosemite Village ?

[CajunRider]

Well... you're now halfway to knowing how to "back it in"... just a little more practice and you're there!



On a serious note... sorry to hear you went down, but Glad you weren't badly hurt! 

Also, glad the guy behind you wasn't on your bumper when it happened... could have been REALLY bad.

[Firefighter]

Several years ago I was riding with a group of Valkyries and I was close to the front of the pack. I don't know if I was looking in the mirror or what but all of the sudden the bike in front of me was slowing fast to make a right turn. I don't think many of us knew we were going to turn. Anyway I made a panicked stop and my rear wheel started sliding out to the right. I was lucky as I was able to get off the brake and straighten up because the bike in front of me was turning and not coming to a complete stop. I remember quickly looking in the mirror to make sure the rider behind me was not going to run into me, I also remember the smoke from the tire in the air.

May be no time to use the front brake during the onset of a panicked stop unless you have your hand covering the brake handle.

[Chrisj CMA]

Several years ago I was riding with a group of Valkyries and I was close to the front of the pack. I don't know if I was looking in the mirror or what but all of the sudden the bike in front of me was slowing fast to make a right turn. I don't think many of us knew we were going to turn. Anyway I made a panicked stop and my rear wheel started sliding out to the right. I was lucky as I was able to get off the brake and straighten up because the bike in front of me was turning and not coming to a complete stop. I remember quickly looking in the mirror to make sure the rider behind me was not going to run into me, I also remember the smoke from the tire in the air.

May be no time to use the front brake during the onset of a panicked stop unless you have your hand covering the brake handle.

May be no time to use the front brake during the onset of a panicked stop unless you have your hand covering the brake handle.

This is the kind of thinking that will get you hurt or worse.  IF you practice and are alert, it takes an almost imesurable amount of time to grab that front brake.

Tell yourself there is no time to get to it and you will never get to it in a pinch, when you need it the most

[Willow]

...
May be no time to use the front brake during the onset of a panicked stop unless you have your hand covering the brake handle.

in fairness, firefighter, it may seem that way but it's not.  The key is having a normal habit of gripping that lever to brake.  If that is your pattern it will happen even in a flash emergency situation (if you have enough time to brake at all).  The obvious exception would be riders who use a cruise control or throttle lock and at the moment of an emergency don't have that right hand on the bar.

My bad.  I just remembered my friend, One Armed Bandit.  His throttle is on the left.  He would be an exception also as he never rides with his right hand on the bar.  

[Firefighter]

Correct, I agree, and I use both brakes at every stop. BUT! In a panicked stop, unless your hand is covering the front brake handle like the right foot is, that rear brake can easily be applied first and with too much force. Probably why Goldwings have abs as an option.

[Firefighter]

Yes Willow, Agree, I love my cruise control and use it most of the time except when with a group or heavy traffic. I don't always have both hands on the bars, but I do in traffic. We are talking unexpected panicked stops. I try to ride aware, but it takes less than a second for things to change, we have all dropped our guard.

And in my case I was too close to the rider in front of me, I proved that.

[Chrisj CMA]

Correct, I agree, and I use both brakes at every stop. BUT! In a panicked stop, unless your hand is covering the front brake handle like the right foot is, that rear brake can easily be applied first and with too much force. Probably why Goldwings have abs as an option.

You really ride with your foot hovering over the brake pedal?  That would be too uncomfortable, and to easy to accidentally ride the rear brake.  Feet should be "covering" the foot pegs

It shouldn't (and really doesn't) take any longer to apply the fronts over the back unless you convince yourself that it's faster to get on the rear where only 30% of your braking power is available, thus further delaying the help of 70% braking power available from the fronts.  Think about it

[Firefighter]

Yea, my feet are on the pegs.

[sutterhome]

My 2 cents and may not apply.Middle of lane oil and debris can be found. Off to the side of tire ruts you run the risk of mostly debris that didn't get push off to curb area.
Was taught to avoid these as they are the nasty bits of the road.

[Firefighter]

Down here where I live by Mexico, we have alot of tar snakes and they are always slippery, especially during the heat of the day. They also like to pour tar on road intersections during repair and you have to watch for that.

[Carl]

Wow, didn't expect my little post to create this much discussion.  Glad it did though.  Gave me plenty to think about.  I have always been a both brakes operator.  Just the way I was taught.  I am going to try and evaluate the way I apply the rear brake.  Over the last couple of days I have been trying to pay attention to the amount of pressure I apply.  Now seems heavier than I initially thought.  I went back to the scene of the crime.  The road there is pretty rough.  So it could have been a combination of factors.  Poor road conditions may have amplified any imperfections in my technique.

Anyway, thanks for all the discussion - keeps me thinking.  As long as I'm living, I'll keep learning.