Non Valk- Central Air ?

[pais]

   Good morning all, from dark, dreary, rainy and cool NE Ohio. This post is for those 2.5 to 3 months in this wonderful state I call home.
    For the last 3 years my nephew has nursed our now 21yr. old central a/c unit along. He was over the other night and said, "Uncle Gary, it's time".
    Any of you have any experience with the brand Heil? For a/c that is. I know they also make furnaces. I need a/c only. My nephew has a small business that he works on the side away from his 9-5, day to day job. This is the brand he pushes/sells.
 
   

[Robert]

Down here in Florida I use ac most of the year the units they have down here are American Standard/Trane plus some other brand like Ruud and Goodman. If he does that on the side why not just ask if there is a better unit out there and what the problems are with them. If he has nursed yours along for this long he must know something.

[Firefighter]

Might google it and look for reviews or consumer reports. If you trust your nephew, I would go with what he sales, he could probably fix things on Saturday night if needed!

[scooperhsd]

I'm not so sure about Goodman and Janitrol, but most of the others you can't go too far off. Heil is probably a decent brand ( find out who actually makes them ). It's more important to get a unit that is "right sized" for your house / area / climate - too little it won't cool, too large and the run cycle will be too short to remove the excessive humidity. If it's running close to 95-100% on the hottest days of the summer and still keeping it at setpoint - it's about right.

[sandy]

Four years ago I had a Goodmans installed. (heat pump rooftop unit) It's been trouble free and is recommended by other pros here in AZ. My summer highs went from $180 to $130 due to the higher efficiency.

[pais]

   I have nosed around on the internet. Not the best nor the worst. Seems to be the choice for new construction, ie price point. I'm sure that's why he is selling the brand. High profit margin for him and he gets a deal from distubutor. As far as who makes it. I do not remember the name. Part of same company makes Carrier, Bryant and a few others. Main components such as coils and compressor are shared by a lot of companies. As mentioned by Scooper, sizing is critical as well as proper installation, from what I've read.

[scooperhsd]

Proper installation can't be overemphasized - I should have mentioned that,  glad you found it on your own.

That is pretty common practice - several brands all have the same parts, that was one reason I mentioned find out who makes them.

[jimmytee]

Heil and Ruud are essentially the same equipment. I wouldn't hesitate to install a Heil unit. I replaced my parents heat pump system up in Indpls, a couple years ago with a Ruud system. Decent quality.

 My personal preference is for Trane. Professionally, I deal in commercial and industrial HVAC.  With a lot of residential equipment there isn't a lot of difference. Goodman's commercial equipment absolutely sucks though and their residential equipment is fair. The sheet metal on their equipment tends to be thinner and flimsy.
Being that your A/C is that old, I know it's an R22 piece. Replacing it, you may be limited to doing a whole upgrade to R410A system. This will require the indoor coil to be replaced, and a serious consideration to the line set as well.  Depending on the age of your furnace and the complexity/ ease of replacing just the indoor coil, you may want to look at replacing it as well.

[pais]

    JimmyT, yes it is R-22 and I do have to replace coil and line set. When looking at and measuring, my nephew pointed out that my furnace is 13yrs old. He commented about the issues of replacing the A-coil. I currently have a 13yr old Trane. Been very happy with it. Nephew does not work/deal with them. Price is in $6500.00 range for a Trane with same features as a Heil for $4500.00. Still studying, really want to give him the work. Just don't want any "family hassles". Or any mechanical problems.

[jimmytee]

    JimmyT, yes it is R-22 and I do have to replace coil and line set. When looking at and measuring, my nephew pointed out that my furnace is 13yrs old. He commented about the issues of replacing the A-coil. I currently have a 13yr old Trane. Been very happy with it. Nephew does not work/deal with them. Price is in $6500.00 range for a Trane with same features as a Heil for $4500.00. Still studying, really want to give him the work. Just don't want any "family hassles". Or any mechanical problems.

Like I said, I wouldn't hesitate putting a Heil in. There isn't that big of a difference for me though in the pricing between buying Trane or Heil. Trane will be a little more, but not that much more.  I would look for equipment with TXV metering device. I think with the Heil , that should be the case.

[cookiedough]

I think will be fine if heil made by rudd. 

I installed 23 years ago central air of comfortmaker brand and knock on wood, still going strong. I think it was a 2 ton unit since smaller house not needing a 2 1/2 ton or larger unit.  Am sure in next 5 years or less will need a new unit probably.

2 years ago my then 21 year old comfortmaker 80% efficiency gas furnace clunked out wasn't worth fixing.  I got a very good deal on a 97% smaller unit (same size as comfortmaker or so)  can't remember btu rating off hand though,  was going to go with a goodman unit (made by amana) but found out the goodman did not have a 10 year (or was it 20 year??)  warranty on one of their heat exchangers only I think 2-5 years or something like that since not made of stainless steel like the amana unit.  So for only 200 bucks more or so, went with amana vs. goodman.

You'll find several mfgs. like rudd and heil where maybe 1-2 parts will be cheaper in them like the heil mfg. will not have quite a good as warranty as the more name brand rudd model having that makes heil probably.  If so,  maybe ask your person who wants to do the heil unit if made by rudd what rudd has for similar model and if warranty or parts are any different.  If he can get a heil, he should be able to get a rudd if made by same rudd mfg. 

My heat installer sells both goodman and amana but he normally goes goodman since a few hundred bucks cheaper in cost, but he left it entirely up to me since is MY MONEY.  I figured 200 bucks in 10+ years or more is piece of mind which will probably not be an issue, but my mom had her main heat exchanger go bad a few years ago with a carrier gas furnace at 9 1/2 years old and luckily had a 10 year warranty so was covered in full NO out of pocket on labor either which was nice. 

I think a trane is normally going to be one of the most expensive as well as lennox, not sure the extra cost is worth it in most instances as main parts are normally from 1-2 suppliers in several mfgs. units.

[t-man403]

I'm an American Standard / Trane Dealer.

Holy crap you guys pay way more than we do for A/C. The price span between the products quoted seems too wide to me. Your Trane furnace will not have any issues with a new A/C installed on it cause as we all know ...... "It's hard to stop a Trane". 

Anyway, Heil is the same as Keeprite, Tempstar, Kenmore, Comfortmaker, Keeprite being the mother company. All the same with a different name on it. You'll be fine with it. Keeprite A/C is better than their furnaces and the furnaces are not all that bad. If Rudd is in the mix as has been stated, I'm unaware of that and I wouldn't own a Rudd product ever.

I'm curious as to what tonnage he's quoting you for that price.

[Robert]

I'm an American Standard / Trane Dealer.

Holy crap you guys pay way more than we do for A/C. The price span between the products quoted seems too wide to me. Your Trane furnace will not have any issues with a new A/C installed on it cause as we all know ...... "It's hard to stop a Trane". 


I'm curious as to what tonnage he's quoting you for that price.

I agree with the price is a bit high issue, a 3 to 4 ton installed should be no more than 4 to 4500.00.
You can buy most units outright for 2 to 2500.00

[jimmytee]

I'm an American Standard / Trane Dealer.

 "It's hard to stop a Trane".  

No it's not.... , but they are my preference. WHen someone asks me what they should install, I say they're all junk anymore, but I prefer the Trane junk...

Anyway, Heil is the same as Keeprite, Tempstar, Kenmore, Comfortmaker, Keeprite being the mother company. All the same with a different name on it. You'll be fine with it. Keeprite A/C is better than their furnaces and the furnaces are not all that bad. If Rudd is in the mix as has been stated, I'm unaware of that and I wouldn't own a Rudd product ever.

The Heil and Ruud models are basically the same units with different stickers on them. Much like Bryant and Carrier.  Sure Carrier is the flagship brand of United Technologies , but Bryant units are barely indistinguishable.

[pais]

    Thanks a bunch for all the input.
   Quote is for a 3.5 ton 2-stage unit. I must say I was rather shocked at the prices. I did not expect to have to pay this much for a/c only. One reason why I'm thinking of getting at least one other quote. Really wondering if I need to spend the extra $1500 for 2-stage. Nice feature on furnace. Keeps the house quite comfy and efficient. Just haven't done math to see if it pays for itself and how long to see savings.
    From what I found online, hes probably paying about $22-2400 for a/c. Line sets are pricey, also installing new a-coil and breaker. I don't expect him to do it for nothing. I'd be lying if I didn't say I was a bit leary. I know his father and I'm related to his mother. Apple did not fall far from the tree. I'm still on the fence on this one.

[Robert]

When I had my unit installed I chose a guy I knew who had a fairly big ac company and he told me to stay away from the 2 stage units its only for power conservation and the reliability and longevity may not be as good. My unit the way they set it up it saves me about 50 bucks a month on peak use. The price is for both inside and outside unit and the line set is not that expensive.

   I also went up in size from a 3 ton to 3.5 and the new inside air handlers can handle 3 to 4 ton with the blower settings on the unit. I did not like the way the guy was going to run my linesets so I told him to leave the pipe and Ill run it myself. He wanted to go with a 5k heater but told him I wanted to stay with the 10k that the unit came with. The wiring was also a problem because of the 10k heating element in it and the spec for wiring was a thicker gauge than what was there. So I ran the wire and the the pipe myself. He did all the hook up and approved it to code since he is also a licensed electrician. The ac units come from the factory precharged with Freon also.

I did some things that made the house more comfortable and made for a neater install. It seems you like me are going to replace everything like I did. I even replaced the ducts from the ac unit to the main distribution hub in the attic. I had to do this last step since the duct could not handle the increased air flow of the increase in tonnage. The new units are better more efficient and more cheaply made and probably will not last as long. So make sure you cover all your bases in what you do. The more you do now if you have to replace the unit in the future will stop additional cost. I am really happy with the new unit since it keeps the house cool on the hottest days even with a full house and saves me money also.

[jimmytee]

   Thanks a bunch for all the input.
   Quote is for a 3.5 ton 2-stage unit. I must say I was rather shocked at the prices. I did not expect to have to pay this much for a/c only. One reason why I'm thinking of getting at least one other quote. Really wondering if I need to spend the extra $1500 for 2-stage. Nice feature on furnace. Keeps the house quite comfy and efficient. Just haven't done math to see if it pays for itself and how long to see savings.
    From what I found online, hes probably paying about $22-2400 for a/c. Line sets are pricey, also installing new a-coil and breaker. I don't expect him to do it for nothing. I'd be lying if I didn't say I was a bit leary. I know his father and I'm related to his mother. Apple did not fall far from the tree. I'm still on the fence on this one.

Unless you replace your furnace with one that has a variable drive motor , I doubt you will see the pay off for the added expense of the 2 stage unit. IMHO, get a a single stage 14 to 16 seer unit.

[Jabba]

The newest Heil units are actually manufactured on the Carrier line. They are the same. Carrier, Bryant, Heil, Payne, I guess Ruud. (I didn't know that) are all essentially the same equipment, the differences being how they go to market, and their representation locally. $6500 for an AC replacement not including the furnace is not a SCREAMING deal. Not knowing the details of the difficulty of the lineset issues.

Good Luck. Dealing with family is never easy.

Jabba

[cookiedough]

NO expert, but doubt the extra cost at what you said is worth the 2 stage A/C unit.

My furnace installer with Amana/goodman said is not even worth the added expense normally in their furnaces either for the added cost.  My unit including labor for the gas furnace installed was like 2200 or so.  Goodman would be around 2K but decided on their so called flagship Amana for the added warranty and stainless steel heat exchangers.  

I got 2-3 other quotes and one from Carrier and Trane furnaces was over 3K pushing 3500 for same btu rating - NO thanks.  

My mom's Carrier/Bryant unit has had nothing but issues since 8 years old with the main circuit board and heat exchangers replaced already before 10 years is up.  

[t-man403]

 
[/quote]
Unless you replace your furnace with one that has a variable drive motor , I doubt you will see the pay off for the added expense of the 2 stage unit. IMHO, get a a single stage 14 to 16 seer unit.
[/quote]

I totally agree with this point!

I'd spend my money on a 2 stage variable furnace due to the comfort and the length of our winters ..... makes it well worth it.
I have a 14 seer standard A/C unit which is plenty good enough for the length of running season we have. The variable furnace actually makes the A/C unit more like a 14.5 seer unit. Also, I like to use a half ton larger evaporator coil for more cooling surface to get as much as I can from the condenser ..... but that's just me.
I don't know how deep your wallet is but, If I was to see your home combined with the area you live climate wise, I'd probably suggest you buy a 14 seer single stage A/C system and that's it, simple!
 I'd list the two stage equipment options separately so that at least you can see the price difference and let you make an informed choice.
 I have been at the Trane plant in Tyler TX. a few times and they make a quality product. In reality, they all will work for you.
 
Up here a 3 ton install would average $3500 depending on the install and no matter the brand except for Goodman ...... the whores of the industry, a couple hundred bucks less and once it starts rattling at 2 am. your neighbor will hate you.   

[jimmytee]

The newest Heil units are actually manufactured on the Carrier line. They are the same. Carrier, Bryant, Heil, Payne, I guess Ruud. (I didn't know that) are all essentially the same equipment, the differences being how they go to market, and their representation locally. $6500 for an AC replacement not including the furnace is not a SCREAMING deal. Not knowing the details of the difficulty of the lineset issues.

Good Luck. Dealing with family is never easy.

Jabba

My mistake. I was thinking of Rheem and Ruud. I do believe Heil used to be in th esame family though, but it may have been a few years.
If it's made by United Technologies...ie Carrier,Bryant, Payne... RUNNNNNNNN away. JMHO. Junk.

[cookiedough]

The newest Heil units are actually manufactured on the Carrier line. They are the same. Carrier, Bryant, Heil, Payne, I guess Ruud. (I didn't know that) are all essentially the same equipment, the differences being how they go to market, and their representation locally. $6500 for an AC replacement not including the furnace is not a SCREAMING deal. Not knowing the details of the difficulty of the lineset issues.

Good Luck. Dealing with family is never easy.

Jabba

My mistake. I was thinking of Rheem and Ruud. I do believe Heil used to be in th esame family though, but it may have been a few years.
If it's made by United Technologies...ie Carrier,Bryant, Payne... RUNNNNNNNN away. JMHO. Junk.

that is what I was thinking as well with my mom's Carrier having major issues before 9 years and hit or miss working the past few years sinking money now into it already.  The last OLD 1970's furnace lasted over 30 years (although not as efficient it ran).  I'd like any furnace (even A/C unit) made nowadays last much past 20 years. 

I hope not though since my mother in law got suckered into spending near 4g's on a slightly higher effiiciency Carrier furnace variable speed and all the gizmo's for near same sized unit as my 2200 dollar Amana unit nearly same sized ranch house.  It is surprising if you call around the variance in labor charges to install a basic furnace.  I doubt at her age 73 she will get the extra near 2 grand she paid worth out of her near 99% efficiency Carrier furnace as my 97% more basic single stage Amana unit.   I think the more gizmos on a furnace, the more things are likely to go wrong AFTER the warranty is out. 

[john]

a twenty year old system is a dinosaur ... they still work but suck up the power ,, new hi seer heat pumps  (lenox)  are the way to go and you will be glad you did ... I replaced old a/c unit (and removed the old furnace) in my house with new hi seer heat pump here in tyler ...            replaced the hot water heater with a new tankless hot water heat as we'll  never run out of hot water again ... cut electric  bill in half and  gas bill way down ... surprising the cost of keep'in a tank of water heated all day and night .... water heater closets make for nice extra storage space ... I did the same (remove gas furnace and install heatpump) with the house (reem) in tempe arizona and got back 400 buck from  power company as a refund    

[pais]

    Good morning guys,
   As usual, thanks for all the feedback!
     Few of my thoughts and where I'm at on this issue.
   1) I knew upfront that Heil is under the International Comfort Products(just could not remember the name) umbrella. One familiar name, Carrier is manufactured by said company. Parents had a Carrier a/c unit that was nothing but trouble from day one. That was awhile ago, 2005 I think.
   2) The quote for the 2-stage, 3.5 ton a/c unit is $5100.00. I currently have a 2-stage furnace so, I would and could see the benefits of a 2-stage.
        The quote for a single stage, 3.5 ton, up to 16 seer unit is $3600.00
   3) 2 Heads are better than one as long as they are not on the same shoulders!
     I never looked at it from the perspective of length of cooling season, duh. May 15th here in wonderful NE Ohio and we had to turn furnace on. House was 52* Sunday morning.
    I am going with the single stage unit but, I am going to have another company out to price the job. Just not convinced about the quality of the Heil unit. Looking around on the web. Just not a lot of info. What is out there, is not real confidence inspiring.
    Again, thank you and I enjoyed all the feedback. I will post the quote from "the other guy" when I get it.

[jimmytee]

A lot of the components in the various brands are very similar. It really comes down to the construction of the coils and the sheet metal used to stamp out the housings.  Beyond that, INSTALLATION is probably the biggest single factor in life span of your A/C system. This includes proper unit sizing, evaluation of duct work and it's proper sizing and condition. Workmanship and using proper "best practices" with the installation. Then an often overlooked procedure, " commissioning"  of the system. Proper commissioning will assure that all things are operating in the best way and reveal any issues that might hamper proper efficient operation. Being that your present system has lasted 21 years, something was probably done right in that installation. The best equipment will be defeated by poor installation.  

[Ramie]

Get a few quotes, a lot of the units out there are fairly similar.  If you want to check some pricing on similar models try here.

http://www.djsonline.com/

[Jack]

Rheem, Ruud, and Weatherking are made by Rheem.  Ruud and Weatherking are builders models.  Weatherking is no longer made since the 14 seer came out.

Payne,Heil, and Goodman are pretty low on customer satisfaction but many are ok with them.  They are cheaper and made cheap.

Trane is tops on consumer satisfaction and has been for years.  I sell Rheem so it hurts to say that.
Whatever unit you decide on, be sure and check the warranty.  Some brands offer longer warranties for just registering them online.

[Kep]

I hate to see Payne , Bryant , Carrier dogged on here...I have serviced , installed and sold said equipment for the past 35 years and found them to be extremely reliable..biggest problem with them is IMPROPER , UN-QUALIFIED installation. I have dealt with some of the secondary heat exchanger issues with said furnaces and 99% of the issues were due to improper installation.I have run my own HVACR business for the past 12 years and have exclusively sold Payne (a few Bryant here and there) I have near a 100% customer satisfaction rate. I do ,however , take a lot of pride in my work and make certain that things are done correctly , and neatly .I treat my customers honestly and the way I would want to be treated.

[jimmytee]

I hate to see Payne , Bryant , Carrier dogged on here...I have serviced , installed and sold said equipment for the past 35 years and found them to be extremely reliable..biggest problem with them is IMPROPER , UN-QUALIFIED installation. I have dealt with some of the secondary heat exchanger issues with said furnaces and 99% of the issues were due to improper installation.I have run my own HVACR business for the past 12 years and have exclusively sold Payne (a few Bryant here and there) I have near a 100% customer satisfaction rate. I do ,however , take a lot of pride in my work and make certain that things are done correctly , and neatly .I treat my customers honestly and the way I would want to be treated.

You obviously don't deal much with Carrier and Bryant's commercial equipment.  
To say I am not a fan is an understatement. I even once worked for Carrier Factory Service and I say this.

I can't speak a lot about their residential equipment, but then there is the bit of them moving their Indpls plant to Mexico. ???

You're right , though, as I stated earlier, INSTALLATION is the biggest factor in longevity of equipment.