Confused. Counter steering

[Pete]

Yes you can avoid counter steering and just lean your body weight and the bike into a turn.
 BUT..............................
It is much slower than true counter steering and in an emergency probably not quick enough to save your butt.

Many of us ride both ways and many do not (always counter steer):
Slow and casual - body bike lean.
Faster and more aggressive - counter steer
The big issue if you do is will you default correctly in an emergency.  ( big deal)

As someone pointed out when riding one hand - push one way and pull the other works fine.

The actual physical dynamics of the bike turning are almost the same to the bike, but you ability to perform the turn are ENHANCED by the counter steering.

Somewhere over 5 MPH an actual true left turn of the handle bars will cause the bike to go right and vice  versa. More than one person has panicked, actually turned the bars or tried to and went the wrong way and crashed. In extreme cases if they can talk after the accident there first memory is often that the bike would not TURN the way they wanted or the steering locked up.

But even if you don't push on the bars and just use your body weight to lean. The wheel is still needing to turn right slightly in a left turn ?

Please re-read
"The actual physical dynamics of the bike turning are almost the same to the bike, but you ability to perform the turn are ENHANCED by the counter steering. "

[The emperor has no clothes]

Yes you can avoid counter steering and just lean your body weight and the bike into a turn.
 BUT..............................
It is much slower than true counter steering and in an emergency probably not quick enough to save your butt.

Many of us ride both ways and many do not (always counter steer):
Slow and casual - body bike lean.
Faster and more aggressive - counter steer
The big issue if you do is will you default correctly in an emergency.  ( big deal)

As someone pointed out when riding one hand - push one way and pull the other works fine.

The actual physical dynamics of the bike turning are almost the same to the bike, but you ability to perform the turn are ENHANCED by the counter steering.

Somewhere over 5 MPH an actual true left turn of the handle bars will cause the bike to go right and vice  versa. More than one person has panicked, actually turned the bars or tried to and went the wrong way and crashed. In extreme cases if they can talk after the accident there first memory is often that the bike would not TURN the way they wanted or the steering locked up.

But even if you don't push on the bars and just use your body weight to lean. The wheel is still needing to turn right slightly in a left turn ?

Please re-read
"The actual physical dynamics of the bike turning are almost the same to the bike, but you ability to perform the turn are ENHANCED by the counter steering. "

Them big words had me confused.

[Pete]

Yes you can avoid counter steering and just lean your body weight and the bike into a turn.
 BUT..............................

But even if you don't push on the bars and just use your body weight to lean. The wheel is still needing to turn right slightly in a left turn ?

Please re-read
"The actual physical dynamics of the bike turning are almost the same to the bike, but you ability to perform the turn are ENHANCED by the counter steering. "

Them big words had me confused.

No problem,
Think of at least threes things happening gyro deflection (wheels), weigh transfer and center of gravity change, change any one and there will be a deflection, change all three at once and the potential for a major change of direction quickly is accomplished. True counter steering affects all three at once. Have fun guys I am going to bed, see ya tomorrow.

[mike72903]

Yes you can avoid counter steering and just lean your body weight and the bike into a turn.
 BUT..............................
It is much slower than true counter steering and in an emergency probably not quick enough to save your butt.

Many of us ride both ways and many do not (always counter steer):
Slow and casual - body bike lean.
Faster and more aggressive - counter steer
The big issue if you do is will you default correctly in an emergency.  ( big deal)

As someone pointed out when riding one hand - push one way and pull the other works fine.

The actual physical dynamics of the bike turning are almost the same to the bike, but you ability to perform the turn are ENHANCED by the counter steering.

Somewhere over 5 MPH an actual true left turn of the handle bars will cause the bike to go right and vice  versa. More than one person has panicked, actually turned the bars or tried to and went the wrong way and crashed. In extreme cases if they can talk after the accident there first memory is often that the bike would not TURN the way they wanted or the steering locked up.

that's where I am now pushing instead of pulling. Not intuitive and I've started to go the wrong way a few times.  It's important to be as safe as possible and I want it to become an instinctive habit.

[Gryphon Rider]

But even if you don't push on the bars and just use your body weight to lean. The wheel is still needing to turn right slightly in a left turn ?

In order to turn left, you need you and the bike to be leaned to the left. You can do this by shifting your weight to the left so the bike starts to fall to the left, creating the lean angle you need. This works on large radius corners. On tighter bends, a weight shift doesn't work fast enough, so a faster way to create a lean angle is to shift the tires to the right under the bike by steering to the right. The front tire doesn't care if you do this by pulling the right grip or by pushing the left grip. Once the tires have moved right and created the lean angle, there is no longer any need to steer to the right, but now the front wheel needs to steer slightly to the left in order to follow the road's bend to the left. You don't have to think about this, because the front wheel naturally turns in the direction the bike is falling (leaning). This is due to the contact patch trailing behind the steering axis, a.k.a. trail.

To summarize, counter steering initiates the turn by creating the lean, then trail causes the front wheel to turn in the direction of the turn.

Some bikes, especially those with car tires, require a counter pressure on the bars to prevent the front wheel from turning in too much and straightening the bike.

[The emperor has no clothes]

But even if you don't push on the bars and just use your body weight to lean. The wheel is still needing to turn right slightly in a left turn ?

In order to turn left, you need you and the bike to be leaned to the left. You can do this by shifting your weight to the left so the bike starts to fall to the left, creating the lean angle you need. This works on large radius corners. On tighter bends, a weight shift doesn't work fast enough, so a faster way to create a lean angle is to shift the tires to the right under the bike by steering to the right. The front tire doesn't care if you do this by pulling the right grip or by pushing the left grip. Once the tires have moved right and created the lean angle, there is no longer any need to steer to the right, but now the front wheel needs to steer slightly to the left in order to follow the road's bend to the left. You don't have to think about this, because the front wheel naturally turns in the direction the bike is falling (leaning). This is due to the contact patch trailing behind the steering axis, a.k.a. trail.

To summarize, counter steering initiates the turn by creating the lean, then trail causes the front wheel to turn in the direction of the turn.

Some bikes, especially those with car tires, require a counter pressure on the bars to prevent the front wheel from turning in too much and straightening the bike.

Hmm... I didn't know that. I thought the contact patch of the tire was slightly turned right all the way thru a left turn.

[MarkT]

But even if you don't push on the bars and just use your body weight to lean. The wheel is still needing to turn right slightly in a left turn ?

In order to turn left, you need you and the bike to be leaned to the left. You can do this by shifting your weight to the left so the bike starts to fall to the left, creating the lean angle you need. This works on large radius corners. On tighter bends, a weight shift doesn't work fast enough, so a faster way to create a lean angle is to shift the tires to the right under the bike by steering to the right. The front tire doesn't care if you do this by pulling the right grip or by pushing the left grip. Once the tires have moved right and created the lean angle, there is no longer any need to steer to the right, but now the front wheel needs to steer slightly to the left in order to follow the road's bend to the left. You don't have to think about this, because the front wheel naturally turns in the direction the bike is falling (leaning). This is due to the contact patch trailing behind the steering axis, a.k.a. trail.

To summarize, counter steering initiates the turn by creating the lean, then trail causes the front wheel to turn in the direction of the turn.

Some bikes, especially those with car tires, require a counter pressure on the bars to prevent the front wheel from turning in too much and straightening the bike.

Hmm... I didn't know that. I thought the contact patch of the tire was slightly turned right all the way thru a left turn.

It is, if your bike has anything other than unworn bike tires in the size stipulated by the maker.  IOW, as bike tires wear, they generally wear more in the middle, creating a flat spot.  So when you turn, the bike suddenly rides up on the edge of that flat spot, and the axis of lift is suddenly to the side, not directly in line with the lateral center of gravity line.  Then you have to hold counteresteer pressure to keep the bike leaning in the turn.  The same effect is produced by "darkside" tires only to a greater degree.  The DS tire with the least demonstration of this phenomenon, of the ones I've used, is the Austone.  It's narrower, and already has a fairly rounded profile.  Unworn bike tires, when you lean, the center of lift stays pretty much in line with the center of gravity laterally, so the bike is neutral in the turn.  IOW, once you initiate the turn, it continues in the turn until you apply opposite countersteer pressure to take it out of the turn.  BTW, flying an airplane, when it's properly trimmed, behaves the same:  You initate the turn with the controls, then the plane turns because of the bank, and you pull back a bit on the yoke, and climb around the turn.  You have to apply opposite control inputs to return to level flight.  Control inputs are also similar - you apply pressure to the controls, not large movements - same as a bike, countersteering.  Except for large, emergency manuvers, of course, in both cases.  There - now you know enough to fly an airplane!

[..]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_5Z3jyO2pA

[MP]

Yes you can avoid counter steering and just lean your body weight and the bike into a turn.
 BUT..............................
It is much slower than true counter steering and in an emergency probably not quick enough to save your butt.

Many of us ride both ways and many do not (always counter steer):
Slow and casual - body bike lean.
Faster and more aggressive - counter steer
The big issue if you do is will you default correctly in an emergency.  ( big deal)

As someone pointed out when riding one hand - push one way and pull the other works fine.

The actual physical dynamics of the bike turning are almost the same to the bike, but you ability to perform the turn are ENHANCED by the counter steering.

Somewhere over 5 MPH an actual true left turn of the handle bars will cause the bike to go right and vice  versa. More than one person has panicked, actually turned the bars or tried to and went the wrong way and crashed. In extreme cases if they can talk after the accident there first memory is often that the bike would not TURN the way they wanted or the steering locked up.

that's where I am now pushing instead of pulling. Not intuitive and I've started to go the wrong way a few times.  It's important to be as safe as possible and I want it to become an instinctive habit.

Please work on pushing, instead of pulling.  Both work, no problem.  But.... in an emergency, where you need to make a major course correction, RIGHT NOW, one can do it faster pushing, rather than pulling.  I believe i read that it is easier too, but not sure about that.  If you learn to push all the time, then when you need it, that is what you will do.  Good Luck!

[solo1]

I agree with this but let me add, get a copy of "Proficient Motorcycling, The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well" by David Hough. (And read it.) Smiley Quote by Serk

I agree completely. David has a great way of explaining it. I don't know if any one here has mentioned it (lots of great thinking here) but when you are leaned over, the rounded tread area of mc tires effectively have a smaller diameter which raises the revs slightly which is why we give more throttle instinctively (CT's Maybe not?).

Hough's book really gets into riding dynamics.

[Gryphon Rider]

But even if you don't push on the bars and just use your body weight to lean. The wheel is still needing to turn right slightly in a left turn ?

In order to turn left, you need you and the bike to be leaned to the left. You can do this by shifting your weight to the left so the bike starts to fall to the left, creating the lean angle you need. This works on large radius corners. On tighter bends, a weight shift doesn't work fast enough, so a faster way to create a lean angle is to shift the tires to the right under the bike by steering to the right. The front tire doesn't care if you do this by pulling the right grip or by pushing the left grip. Once the tires have moved right and created the lean angle, there is no longer any need to steer to the right, but now the front wheel needs to steer slightly to the left in order to follow the road's bend to the left. You don't have to think about this, because the front wheel naturally turns in the direction the bike is falling (leaning). This is due to the contact patch trailing behind the steering axis, a.k.a. trail.

To summarize, counter steering initiates the turn by creating the lean, then trail causes the front wheel to turn in the direction of the turn.

Some bikes, especially those with car tires, require a counter pressure on the bars to prevent the front wheel from turning in too much and straightening the bike.

Hmm... I didn't know that. I thought the contact patch of the tire was slightly turned right all the way thru a left turn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_5Z3jyO2pA

In the video, The narrator almost quotes my summary word-for-word at 1:27-1:42.

Once you're in the turn, the wheel is turned into the turn.

[The emperor has no clothes]

But even if you don't push on the bars and just use your body weight to lean. The wheel is still needing to turn right slightly in a left turn ?

In order to turn left, you need you and the bike to be leaned to the left. You can do this by shifting your weight to the left so the bike starts to fall to the left, creating the lean angle you need. This works on large radius corners. On tighter bends, a weight shift doesn't work fast enough, so a faster way to create a lean angle is to shift the tires to the right under the bike by steering to the right. The front tire doesn't care if you do this by pulling the right grip or by pushing the left grip. Once the tires have moved right and created the lean angle, there is no longer any need to steer to the right, but now the front wheel needs to steer slightly to the left in order to follow the road's bend to the left. You don't have to think about this, because the front wheel naturally turns in the direction the bike is falling (leaning). This is due to the contact patch trailing behind the steering axis, a.k.a. trail.

To summarize, counter steering initiates the turn by creating the lean, then trail causes the front wheel to turn in the direction of the turn.

Some bikes, especially those with car tires, require a counter pressure on the bars to prevent the front wheel from turning in too much and straightening the bike.

Hmm... I didn't know that. I thought the contact patch of the tire was slightly turned right all the way thru a left turn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_5Z3jyO2pA

In the video, The narrator almost quotes my summary word-for-word at 1:27-1:42.

Once you're in the turn, the wheel is turned into the turn.

I hope I didn't come off as doubting you. Because I don't. When I was young I used to devour all the motorcycle magazines. I thought I had read that somewhere. 

[Daniel Meyer]

Yes you can avoid counter steering and just lean your body weight and the bike into a turn.
 BUT..............................
It is much slower than true counter steering and in an emergency probably not quick enough to save your butt.

Many of us ride both ways and many do not (always counter steer):
Slow and casual - body bike lean.
Faster and more aggressive - counter steer
The big issue if you do is will you default correctly in an emergency.  ( big deal)

As someone pointed out when riding one hand - push one way and pull the other works fine.

The actual physical dynamics of the bike turning are almost the same to the bike, but you ability to perform the turn are ENHANCED by the counter steering.

Somewhere over 5 MPH an actual true left turn of the handle bars will cause the bike to go right and vice  versa. More than one person has panicked, actually turned the bars or tried to and went the wrong way and crashed. In extreme cases if they can talk after the accident there first memory is often that the bike would not TURN the way they wanted or the steering locked up.

But even if you don't push on the bars and just use your body weight to lean. The wheel is still needing to turn right slightly in a left turn ?

Even the folks that think they are not countersteering, are to some degree or they are not turning...without it, you cannot turn the motorcycle more then a few degrees off straight and any kind of speed...and if you don't learn it...and practice it...you cannot make a motorcycle handle to even a fraction of it's capability.

Stuff's important. If you are unfamiliar with this, go take the MSF courses.

Please.

[RGM]

I find this thread disconcerting that so many people riding these big bikes do not understand how they turn. 

[..]

I find this thread disconcerting that so many people riding these big bikes do not understand how they turn. 

Unfortunately it isn't just limited to riders of big bikes.

Being able to ride away from a motorcycle purchase on a bike that could be capable of twice the speed limit and/or weighing close to half a ton when loaded with fuel and rider/passenger is often a recipe for disaster.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I find this thread disconcerting that so many people riding these big bikes do not understand how they turn. 

I think most do, but it's more instinctual. And I know for myself I don't always communicate clearly what I'm trying to say.

[Serk]

I find this thread disconcerting that so many people riding these big bikes do not understand how they turn. 

You think that's scary, consider this - Most of the folks here, by the very fact that they're here, are the kind of motorcyclists who are seeking out information, wanting to learn and better themselves.

I've met many, MANY old grizzled bikers with many years of riding behind them (And the scars to prove it) who flat out told me counter steering was a myth, there's no such thing.

...and people wonder why I avoid group rides.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I find this thread disconcerting that so many people riding these big bikes do not understand how they turn. 

You think that's scary, consider this - Most of the folks here, by the very fact that they're here, are the kind of motorcyclists who are seeking out information, wanting to learn and better themselves.

I've met many, MANY old grizzled bikers with many years of riding behind them (And the scars to prove it) who flat out told me counter steering was a myth, there's no such thing.

...and people wonder why I avoid group rides.

Damn, that is scary. I've never had that. But I've met plenty that have never even heard of counter steering .

[Gryphon Rider]

To see that the front wheel turns into a corner after the lean angle is set by counter steering, look at the front wheel compared to the rear wheel:

[Oldfishguy]

The input of counter steering is many times so slight you do it subconsciously. Even at this slow speed the initial input is a counter steer; although for a very short duration.

From a MSF course I did last summer:

David

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3u_cY0ja1s4

[ridingron]

Another thing to try for proof of counter steering. Find a large empty parking lot or something similar. Run the bike up to 25-30 mph.  Hold your hands slightly above the grips. Gently touch the grip with your thumb pushing the grip forward. See what happens. Do the other thumb.

Try counter steering on a trike.

Counter steering will get you in trouble real fast on a side car rig. The only time you can counter steer is when you're cornering with the rig tire up in the air (on 2 wheels).

[Gryphon Rider]

The input of counter steering is many times so slight you do it subconsciously. Even at this slow speed the initial input is a counter steer; although for a very short duration.

From a MSF course I did last summer:

David

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3u_cY0ja1s4

That's what I would call fast and skillful "slow speed" riding!

[jimmytee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_5Z3jyO2pA

I shared that earlier along with one of his longer videos.

[LTD]

My mind is fried reading about all of this body leaning and counter steering.

[Jess from VA]

To me, the simplest way to conceptualize counter steering is what was done decades ago when I went through basic level MSF inside the box.   It wasn't called MSF then, but I bet they do the same maneuver today.

The instructor stood at the center of one end of the box, and you started rolling toward him from the center of the other end.

At about the half way point, and not that fast, he would randomly point left or right, and you were to push/pull the bars quickly in the direction opposite from his pointing.  The counter steer, in combination with your forward velocity, would quickly tip the bike in the direction that he was pointing as a matter of physics.  Then you quickly straightened up the bars, and you found yourself back in a straight line, but now a few feet over toward the side he had pointed.  Side stepping the motorcycle, if you will.  

You cannot miss a seen-at-the-last-minute pothole or dead skunk or other bad mojo in the road any faster, by any better technique.  This is easily practiced at slow and medium speeds to get the feel of it.

Learning any new skill is often best accomplished in baby steps, and this is the initial baby step of counter steering a motorcycle.  It gets more complicated at higher speeds and in different situations (curves, steep downhill curves, S's, yada) but it all originates from steering one way to tip the bike to go the other way.  It works because it is faster than just turning and leaning in the direction you want to go. 

[NW roller]

I would just suggest that if you think you have not done this technic please be careful. most folks here do it without thinking about it. Look where you want to go,if slow ride scoot up on the tank. What I mean by slow ride is under 5 mph like I have to do on some of the cone courses I ride. Be safe  and keep the shiny side up.