Anyone with asphalt paving knowledge?

[G-Man]

My driveway is slowly crumbling away ever since an idiot "contractor" tried to back up my steep driveway with an overloaded pickup truck and a ball hitch.  It was gonna need redoing, but not just so soon.  So I've been taking bids.  They range from $3700 - $6700 for the exact same job. 

The driveway has two parts like the letter V.  When you approach the driveway's apron, you can go straight or you can go left and up the steep part of the driveway to the house.  The more expensive quote includes two layers of new asphalt on the steep part.  He said it was needed, but his explanation was strange.  I think he was trying to say something about gravity.  Does this make sense to anyone?

This pic is above ground level so you can't really appreciate how steep the entrance to the driveway is on the left side and how tall the hill is. 

[Oss]

      and that is another reason I didnt think BigBF should
put that big rig in your driveway    

How is the bike riding now? It sounded awesome when
you left here.

Did you ask Billy what he thought? He is in the asphalt business

[Pete]

About a $1.75 per square foot for 2" thick installed is a good price.
That price includes all preparation and install and materials using an asphalt paving machine.

And then in a year or so you will need to seal it.

Not sure why he would double coat just the steep part. We did not and it is doing fine. Although you will see more wear on a steep up hill grade if you hit the pedal to speed up in the same place all the time, Think rut.

[sheets]

My driveway is slowly crumbling away ever since an idiot "contractor" tried to back up my steep driveway with an overloaded pickup truck and a ball hitch.  It was gonna need redoing, but not just so soon.  So I've been taking bids.  They range from $3700 - $6700 for the exact same job.

The driveway has two parts like the letter V.  When you approach the driveway's apron, you can go straight or you can go left and up the steep part of the driveway to the house.  The more expensive quote includes two layers of new asphalt on the steep part.  He said it was needed, but his explanation was strange.  I think he was trying to say something about gravity.  Does this make sense to anyone?

This pic is above ground level so you can't really appreciate how steep the entrance to the driveway is on the left side and how tall the hill is.

-----------------------------------

Is the plan to remove all the existing pavement . . . or pave over the existing?

If they pave over the existing the end result will be steeper in grade to match the city street.

The point where the current damage from the trailer hitch is will be more susceptible.

If they put "two layers" it will be steeper yet.

How deep is a layer? As a retired road worker, all our calculations were in tenths of a foot.

A tenth (.10 ft) is a inch and a quarter (1.25 inch). Absolute minimum we ever did was two tenths.

Asphalt is only as good as the base supporting it (like painting a rotten board). As you pave over the existing I suspect you will see the cracks beneath reflecting up through the new surface at some point in the future.  Once you have cracks you allow water intrusion. The idea is to keep water out.

The mention of gravity and two lifts (layers) is due to the steep grade the roller will be working on the compact the asphalt. The steep grade combined with a single deep layer of fresh hot asphalt will make it impossible for the roller to climb the grade without spinning out and tearing up the new mat. A thin lift will lessen the chance of the roller spinning its drive wheel while driving up the grade, or the front wheel pushing the material - distorting the surface - while going down hill.

retired highway guy.

   

 

[sheets]

39 years out where the rubber meets the road. 24 on the business end of a shovel, lute, loader, motor grader, grinder, setting chains on tail gates and belly-dumps, self-propelled paving machines, roller, etc, excavating and placing 200 to 600 tons a day for weeks at a time. Five years striping the lanes for delineation after they've been paved.  Ten years writing purchase orders for asphalt and paying the bills . . . once verified we received what was specified when ordered.

You can't get proper compaction on depths exceeding about two tenths. Heavy duty highway construction vibrating type rollers perhaps. Deeper lifts than a couple tenths causes the steel wheel roller to bog down and spin out. Even on a level grade. Add any degree of slope to the grade and the roller will push the material out of shape. Too deep or steep and now you have a roller stuck. Ya gotta fix the screwups before the material cools and sets up. The shot clock is ticking . . . .

If you have room in your garage, maybe have the vendor park a pickup in the garage with a winch attached to yo-yo the (small) roller up and down the driveway. That would prevent the roller from sliding around and tearing up the mat.

I'm not an expert, but I do speak the language.

[Rams]

39 years out where the rubber meets the road. 24 on the business end of a shovel, lute, loader, motor grader, grinder, setting chains on tail gates and belly-dumps, self-propelled paving machines, roller, etc, excavating and placing 200 to 600 tons a day for weeks at a time. Five years striping the lanes for delineation after they've been paved.  Ten years writing purchase orders for asphalt and paying the bills . . . once verified we received what was specified when ordered.

You can't get proper compaction on depths exceeding about two tenths. Heavy duty highway construction vibrating type rollers perhaps. Deeper lifts than a couple tenths causes the steel wheel roller to bog down and spin out. Even on a level grade. Add any degree of slope to the grade and the roller will push the material out of shape. Too deep or steep and now you have a roller stuck. Ya gotta fix the screwups before the material cools and sets up. The shot clock is ticking . . . .

If you have room in your garage, maybe have the vendor park a pickup in the garage with a winch attached to yo-yo the (small) roller up and down the driveway. That would prevent the roller from sliding around and tearing up the mat.

I'm not an expert, but I do speak the language.

I'd say you qualify as an "expert".   That from an OFFICIALLY Titled PITA.   

[john]

 forty plus years in the field ... if I may   ... you will never get rid of the cracks with an overlay ... they will come back .. forever ... the only way to get rid of cracks is to remove and repave it ... if your pavement is not to far gone/failed you can buy the crack seal material and the seal coat material and tools needed to do this work yourself .. it is not that difficult and you can save some money if you are so incline and it will look great when you are finished ...the supplier has everything you need to do the job ... you will need several days of dry sunny weather as this process takes time .. do the crack seal work first and it will need time to set .. a day at least just to be sure it will not track ,, then do the seal coat work ..
you will need a good compressor to clean "blow" out the cracks ... make room for crack seal material ... start at the top and work your way down ... do not step in/on or drive on this stuff as it will track everywhere ... make sure the drive is clean (can't stress this point enuff) before the seal coat material is applied or the material will not adhere to the pavement ... a slight "mist" from a water hose onto the dry clean pavement will help the seal coat material to spread easily plus the moisture will "draw" the  material down into every nook and cranny that is in the existing pavement .
 ...to order crack seal material pick out an area with the most cracks per square yard and measure inches of crack in that area .. the supplier will sell you material needed for that amount of crack seal and any unused  material he will buy back ... measure square footage of driveway to be sealed and he will tell you how much  seal coat material needed to cover that area as well ... they have every thing needed ...all tanks ...  melting kettles and tools  you will need to do the job ... depending on traffic it will look good for three or five years .. you can seal coat as needed to keep it look'in good  ... allow it plenty of time to dry/cure  .. another day as this material will appear dry on top but will still be wet between the pavement and its surface .. it will be .. it is as slippery as ice on ice at this stage ... let the sun have it all day to cure  

"I think he was trying to say something about gravity" ... hot mix needs to be rolled , compacted while it is still very hot for best results ... on a steep grade the roller will have .. may have a hard time rolling up the grade without "dig'in up" the hot mix .. this means it (the hot mix) may need time to cool a little to support the weight of and the pulling of the steel wheels traction needed to roll up the grade ...   the cooler the mix the less it compacts ... less compaction means the finished product will not be as tight as needed to keep water from penetrating into the mat ... any moisture in the mat will freeze during winter months .. water expands when frozen thus causes the asphalt to fail .. it will begin to come apart ... asphalt seal coat treatment will extended by years to its usefulness   

[Hook#3287]

When sealing, you want to use a "coal tar" based product as opposed to a "petroleum" based product.  The coal tar will give your driveway protection from spilled oil and gas.

[Varmintmist]

Father started his business with 1 single axel and a drag box, I was holding my own on the crew at 12. Shovel operator until about 16, then showed I could run a joint with a lute, became a fair loader operator, and a pretty good grader operator long before they had gps to do the work.

Those cracks are not from a pickup. They are from water underneath the asphalt. He may have drug a hitch, but that isnt why it is crumbling. If it is, you got ripped off and got a inch of top over stone (?) on the first go round. Sealing the cracks helps keep water from getting under, which helps stop the cracking. Coal Tar emulsion seal coat will bind with the asphalt and last longer. You can add some sand to the seal coat to help fill in little cracks.

Anyway, as was stated, 2 lifts is the way to go. In a nutshell, the roller will push the asphalt down the hill when it is on it if its two thick, even if he tack coats the existing.

Blacktop IS concrete, asphaltic concrete, and will behave in a similar way. One of the advantages it that it will move a little, which also means it will crack after a while.

[Tundra]

Sorry, can't advise with asphalt paving knowledge. I only have experience destroying asphalt.

[Jersey mike]

Hey G-man,

I was thinking of this post the other day when I was doing some work.

Although I did lay driveways for a couple years...many years ago by hand I don't have much to offer regarding your question. The reason I'm responding is once the driveway is ripped up if there was ever a desire to run anything under the driveway for electric or water this will be the time to do it.

[da prez]

 I would suggesting getting an estimate for concrete. They should use wire mesh and rebar on the edges with fiber concrete.  Sometimes , it is more reasonable.

                                           da prez

[Chippy01]

Concrete or cobblelock (you guys over there probably have a different name for it) would be my remedy.
The amount of asphalt drives I've seen over the years that fail, far exceeds the concrete/cobblelock drives.
But, not matter what the top is, proper blinding/compaction/preparation is the key. Your old surface will need removing to do the job properly.

[G-Man]

Concrete or cobblelock (you guys over there probably have a different name for it) would be my remedy.
The amount of asphalt drives I've seen over the years that fail, far exceeds the concrete/cobblelock drives.
But, not matter what the top is, proper blinding/compaction/preparation is the key. Your old surface will need removing to do the job properly.

Hi All, thanks for all the input.

The driveways will be a complete redo.  There are already 3 or 4 layers of asphalt that are crumbling.  The cracks had already formed, but it had a few more years until it got torn up by that ballhitch.  Since then, it's just been crumbling away.  The prices I got included removal of the old driveway and new rock below and asphalt on top.  Prices do not include block edging or apron.  They want 2 grand more for that. 

Was told that concrete was 3 X's the price as asphalt.  I looked into the stamped concrete thing to maybe give some texture on the hill in the winter but thought it would be too tough to shovel snow and ice off of an uneven surface.  In my area, the driveways made from block pavers are the most expensive and requires more prep (have to go down 12" when starting) and cutting of blocks to fit.  Much more just in labor.

So, is this guy right or wrong when saying there should be two new layers on the part of the driveway going up to house?  The top of the hill is almost flat, maybe a 5 - 10 degree slope.  Then the driveway dives down to practically 45 degrees for 2 large SUV lengths.  Then it meets the lower driveway turns right, still kind of steep on the right side (looking down to road), but leveling off as the driveways meet.

Thanks.

[Jersey mike]

I don't know if anyone brought it up or if you gave it any thought yourself, but you may want to consider a concrete apron at the bottom of the driveway. say from the fire hydrant across to the retaining wall. it would be a good sturdy bottom end of the driveway.

also, one other thing to remember, keep an eye on the bottom of the driveway where it meets the road when they rip out the old driveway then start bringing in whatever new materials they need, such as base or even just the asphalt. if you need to lay down some cheap plywood so they don't ruin the street edge or cause it to crumble or break apart.

if you do not decide to put a concrete apron and go with the asphalt to street, be sure the guys doing the work remove enough base layer so your new driveway locks into the street and also leave you a nice straight finished edge.

[G-Man]

I don't know if anyone brought it up or if you gave it any thought yourself, but you may want to consider a concrete apron at the bottom of the driveway. say from the fire hydrant across to the retaining wall. it would be a good sturdy bottom end of the driveway.

also, one other thing to remember, keep an eye on the bottom of the driveway where it meets the road when they rip out the old driveway then start bringing in whatever new materials they need, such as base or even just the asphalt. if you need to lay down some cheap plywood so they don't ruin the street edge or cause it to crumble or break apart.

if you do not decide to put a concrete apron and go with the asphalt to street, be sure the guys doing the work remove enough base layer so your new driveway locks into the street and also leave you a nice straight finished edge.

Now THAT'S a really good idea.  I was going to use belgium block for the apron, about 4 or 5 rows from the wall to hydrant but that's another $1,500.  Maybe I can use the stamped concrete instead.  It's easier to repair concrete that asphalt.  With asphalt, you always see the repairs. 

Every driveway on my side of the street has a deep scuff mark or gauge within the first couple feet of the driveway from cars and trucks backing up and using them to make u-turns.  The houses across the street are below the road, but they use the driveways that are above the road.  And when their tailpipe makes that grinding noise, they know they're good to now pull forward and drive off down the block.

[Varmintmist]

So, is this guy right or wrong when saying there should be two new layers on the part of the driveway going up to house?  The top of the hill is almost flat, maybe a 5 - 10 degree slope.  Then the driveway dives down to practically 45 degrees for 2 large SUV lengths.  Then it meets the lower driveway turns right, still kind of steep on the right side (looking down to road), but leveling off as the driveways meet.

Thanks.

Yep, he is right. One layer of binder which is large stone asphalt with a layer of top which is the finer layer that you see.

[Jersey mike]

Every driveway on my side of the street has a deep scuff mark or gauge within the first couple feet of the driveway from cars and trucks backing up and using them to make u-turns.  The houses across the street are below the road, but they use the driveways that are above the road.  And when their tailpipe makes that grinding noise, they know they're good to now pull forward and drive off down the block.

if you decide to go with a concrete apron, where it meets the street keep about a 1" rise there, it will change the pitch of that 1st 4' of your driveway so it's not so steep. that's something you can play around with using a decent 2x4 as a straight edge to see for yourself.

I wouldn't go any higher than 1 1/4" that would make a high lip and you'd really feel that every time you pull out and in.

it will also allow new asphalt (if the town ever decides to repave the street) to butt up to instead of overlap.