Half way to Colorado and s**t hits the fan

[Moonshot_1]

Well had to pull up in Kearny, Neb. tonight. Got into Nebraska and about 100 miles into the trip the bike starts acting up a bit. I believe "wallow" would be a good description. Got worse as the ride went on. Wouldn't happen all the time but particularly in turbulence or if into a sweeping right turn. The bike would go "side to side" up high. Sometimes I wondered if it would soon be uncontrollable. Got to Kearny and had a good look.

Well, I had my local dealer replace a rear tire before I left. Probably 2 weeks ago.
What I found today...
The rear rim, covered in fine metal dust. The rim and Pumpkin(?) hotter than hell. The plastic ring seemed to be melted some. No noise. No grinding sounds. Just bad bad handling at highway speeds. Rocking left and right, left and right. Then seeming fine for a long while then left and right again.

So I'm thinking it is a spline issue and the rear was not assembled correctly and it is chewing itself up silly.

Got a guy here in Kearny. An independent mechanic's shop on the north end. Great Plains Motorcycle Service. Recommended by the Honda dealer that only sells and services ATV's. Talked to them late today. Will take the bike in tomorrow am and see what they can do.

So it seems I get to spend some of my Vacation time in Nebraska. Right in the middle of it. It's a 100 degrees out there. And I am pissed.

Woo Hoo.

Anybody in the Kearny area?
 

[old2soon]

I am NOT there but from your limited description I'm GUESSING the assembly SEQUENCE was not followed. There is a definite sequence for reassembly of the front and rear wheels. Let us know please what your mechanic finds out. The week before I-15 my rear wheel bearings and my U-joint took a dump!   BUT I as still at home and my ace in d hole was-TADA-atticrat!   RIDE SAFE.

[Bighead]

I would be speaking with the mechanic that did the work, I tell Ya what!

[BonS]

I'm wondering if the "mechanic" left out the invisible plastic thrust washer and you're grinding away your wheel hub. I certainly hope not. 

[Moonshot_1]

I'm wondering if the "mechanic" left out the invisible plastic thrust washer and you're grinding away your wheel hub. I certainly hope not. 

You guys are full of good news LOL

Well copied some spline stuff from the Shop Talk pages and saved it. Going to show the mechanic here and let him know what we're looking for and how to reassemble the girl.

Going to call my local dealership in the morning too and let him know what is going on.

Am going to take pictures of any (and I'm sure there is plenty) damage.

The dealership back home has a pretty good reputation all around. I'll be putting it to the test soon. This is pretty obvious. Runs fine for thousands and thousands of miles. They take the rear end apart, put it back together and it begins to self destruct in less than a thousand. Maybe less than 500 miles.

[KG]

http://www.valkyrieriders.com/shoptalk/rear_end_service.pptx

Great PowerPoint from start to finish

[wiggydotcom]

I'm wondering if the "mechanic" left out the invisible plastic thrust washer and you're grinding away your wheel hub. I certainly hope not. 

I agree with Bon. That plastic thrust washer is important. It sounds like that could be the culprit. Hopefully not or you'll probably need a new wheel.

[Moonshot_1]

Could one of you point out this thrust washer on a parts list and exactly where it is located in the assembly?  Thanks

[Steve K (IA)]

Could one of you point out this thrust washer on a parts list and exactly where it is located in the assembly?  Thanks

It's #4 Thrust Washer in the picture.  Goes on the back side of #7 Flange Set.

http://partsfinder.onlinemicrofiche.com/mcgrathpowersports/showmodel.asp?Type=18&make=hondamc&a=386&b=44&Action=O

Sometimes it can be hard to see under there if it has grease on it.  I always cover mine in grease.

[old2soon]

I'm wondering if the "mechanic" left out the invisible plastic thrust washer and you're grinding away your wheel hub. I certainly hope not. 

DINGDINGDINGDING-I believe we have a winner!  That durned old pesky thrust washer.  RIDE SAFE.

[KG]

Could one of you point out this thrust washer on a parts list and exactly where it is located in the assembly?  Thanks

It's #4 Thrust Washer in the picture.  Goes on the back side of #7 Flange Set.

http://partsfinder.onlinemicrofiche.com/mcgrathpowersports/showmodel.asp?Type=18&make=hondamc&a=386&b=44&Action=O

Can't look it up on my phone can someone give him the part number for it? Would make it easier to order it or find someone who has it in stock since he is on the road

Sometimes it can be hard to see under there if it has grease on it.  I always cover mine in grease.

[hubcapsc]

42616-MAJ-G20

-Mike

[Misfit]

I doubt that the thrust washer would cause this. I have taken several down to find that the thrust washer is missing without harm. Cut one out of a plastic butter tub lid in a pinch once when changing a failed bearing on a dudes bike while traveling. 

[indybobm]

Missing thrust washers have caused many ruined wheels and final drives. Aluminum wheel, steel drive flange is not a good combination without the thrust washer. Once the drive flange surface of the wheel is worn away, the drive flange wobbles and takes out the splines in the final drive. Many occurrences of this including my own. Bought my second Valk and road it a couple of months before I pulled the wheel for maintenance. Found that the thrust washer was missing, 1/8" of the wheel around the right side wheel bearing was eaten away. Final drive splines were ruined and worn at funny angles. Wheel dampers were worn but not too bad. The amount of damage could be different depending on how many miles were put on the bike without the thrust washers, amount of lubrication, and condition of the dampers and wheel bearings.

Just a couple:
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,39552.0.html

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,34609.0.html

Moral of the story? Do not forget the thrust washer and remember that it goes between the drive flange and wheel, not the drive flange and final drive. Surprisingly , it happens.  

[Wizzard]

yes but would that washer missing cause this in a couple hundred miles?
I had similar feeling when dealer changed my tire,, and 2 weeks later the rear wheel bearing went out. I think they did not torque it right.

[~ Timbrwolf]

...." I doubt that the thrust washer would cause this. I have taken several down to find that the thrust washer is missing without harm. Cut one out of a plastic butter tub lid in a pinch once when changing a failed bearing on a dudes bike while traveling. " ....


. . .. ...Damn Damon...I bow down.. 

[Cracker Jack]

...." I doubt that the thrust washer would cause this. I have taken several down to find that the thrust washer is missing without harm. Cut one out of a plastic butter tub lid in a pinch once when changing a failed bearing on a dudes bike while traveling. " ....


. . .. ...Damn Damon...I bow down.. 

WOW! Me too!

[Fazer]

At Inzane, Dan Meyer stressed the importance of waiting until the axle is properly torqued before tightening up the nuts on the four studs that attach the drive shaft tube (I'm sure that's not the correct name, but it is attached to the final drive) to avoid misalignment of the final drive.

[RainMaker]

Not there, but have visited often.  The Alley Rose is a great place to eat (ask for Sidney as a wait person).  You usually need reservations.  The Cellar is pretty good.  For a great steak, try Whiskey Creek and get the flatiron steak.  Runyon sucks.

Nothing to offer on the bike breakdown.  I did hear good things about that shop but that's my 2 cents.

[indybobm]

I hope it is something simple like a wheel bearing and everything else us ok. Let us know what you find out.

[fudgie]

I think Buffalo Bill Cody's ranch is in Kearny. Might waste a few hrs there.

[Jess Tolbirt]

will the problems you guys speak of cause the rear wheel to wobble?,, i am thinking he has a wheel bearing problem..

[Misfit]

Missing thrust washers have caused many ruined wheels and final drives. Aluminum wheel, steel drive flange is not a good combination without the thrust washer. Once the drive flange surface of the wheel is worn away, the drive flange wobbles and takes out the splines in the final drive. Many occurrences of this including my own. Bought my second Valk and road it a couple of months before I pulled the wheel for maintenance. Found that the thrust washer was missing, 1/8" of the wheel around the right side wheel bearing was eaten away. Final drive splines were ruined and worn at funny angles. Wheel dampers were worn but not too bad. The amount of damage could be different depending on how many miles were put on the bike without the thrust washers, amount of lubrication, and condition of the dampers and wheel bearings.

Just a couple:
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,39552.0.html

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,34609.0.html

Moral of the story? Do not forget the thrust washer and remember that it goes between the drive flange and wheel, not the drive flange and final drive. Surprisingly , it happens.  

I'm not saying that the thrust washer is not important or not needed. I am saying that a few hundred miles without a thrust washer will not be the culprit to his troubles. There is more at play here than just a missing thrust washer in this distance. 

[Moonshot_1]

Got the bike to the mechanic this morning. Just a recap. Lousy handling, black goo coming from rear drive area, hub and wheel really really hot.

He takes it apart and it looks like....it came out of the factory yesterday. Nothing is wrong. Nothing out of place. Thrust washer is there, splines pristine.

Did find that the rear tire was badly out of balance.
There was a marked improvement in the handling after he re-assembled the bike too.

Best we could come up with was the out of balanced tire and perhaps things not torqued quite right previously just caused issues that came up at interstate speeds.

Still have some minor wallowing at times. Perhaps wind related but nothing like what it was like yesterday.

Tonight I am in IDAHO SPRINGS, COLORADO! WOO HOO! Tired as all get out. Left Kearny at 11, rode through the heat, into Denver for the required ride through rush hour then into the mountains where they apparently ration oxygen (sucks being an old fat guy) and to the hotel. Argo Inn. Mom and Pop place in Idaho Springs.

This place is a lot further from Denver than I remembered. Rolled in about 6ish local.

Stood outside my room for about an hour with the binoculars watching 5 Big Horn Sheep do their head butt thing. 1/4 mile away up on a rock out cropping. Pretty awesome.

So a couple days here, then on to Denver for the weekend when my wife flies in.

Well thanks for all the advice and help. Strange, strange deal.

[Valk-Obsessed]

Good to hear that all is not as bad as it seemed like it was gonna be.

[Hooter]

Where did the mechanic figure the visible metal came from?

[F-six]

It's not to say that your own mecanic did a bad job balancing the tyre, you might have lost a balancing weight in your rear wheel while riding.
That you feel still some minor wallowing doesn't need to be caused by the bike. As we all know, riding a motorcycle is for the most part a thing of your mind. And it's possible that you have to rebuild a little bit of your confidence. You only have to think 'did I just felt a wallow', and for sure you are wallowing. Glad to hear it's nothing serious. Have a safe trip.

 

[Wizzard]

I really do not see how an out of balance wheel would cause the pumpkin to get hot,, so hot that it almost melts the plastic ring. And black goo coming out. Something still is not right here.

[..]

Was too much grease put on the splines and that is what is being forced out?

Have you relaxed your grip on the bars now that the wallowing has diminished. If not perhaps you are over correcting?

Rear shocks on equal stiffness setting?

Rear top shock bushing breaking up?

Have you checked pressure in both tires? Only you know if they are inflated correctly.

Do you have a very heavy load on the bike placed behind the rear axle making the front end feel light?

[MP]

I really do not see how an out of balance wheel would cause the pumpkin to get hot,, so hot that it almost melts the plastic ring. And black goo coming out. Something still is not right here.

Quote from OP:   "The rear rim, covered in fine metal dust. The rim and Pumpkin(?) hotter than hell. The plastic ring seemed to be melted some."

I, too, cannot fathom how an "out of balance" tire, can shave metal dust, make the rim AND pumpkin hotter than hell, and partially melt the plastic ring.

[longrider]

Reading through the posts I don't remember anyone checking the rear end oil.  The black goo will show up on me from time to time if I put a little too much grease/moly on the splines.  It will push out past the o-rings and when the pumpkin gets hot it moves out and down the rim.  What tires are you running.  Had a similar experience with new E-3's.

[Wizzard]

I run E3's and love them. Have for the last 9 years

[indybobm]

Did you take pictures when it was apart? Did the mechanic check the rear bearings? Glad eveything seems ok.

[Moonshot_1]

Reading through the posts I don't remember anyone checking the rear end oil.  The black goo will show up on me from time to time if I put a little too much grease/moly on the splines.  It will push out past the o-rings and when the pumpkin gets hot it moves out and down the rim.  What tires are you running.  Had a similar experience with new E-3's.

There were a number of things going on that I just chalked up to a major one.

When the Mech had the rear end apart it had a considerable (17 years worth) of dirt and crud in the places you would expect to find it. The previous mech. likely was very liberal (now it's political) with the grease and I believe even told me he was.
The Mech cleaned it all up, checked every aspect of the rear, bearings, splines, etc. and I got to watch and he walked me through a lot of it. It all checked out like it came from the factory yesterday. Except for the crud.

So I'm running down the road in 100 degree heat, high end of interstate speeds for hours, and the thought is the grease got hot, mixed with the crud, dripped down on the rim. Everything was hot.

I can't explain the wallowing. Though it has improved since the rear end was reassembled. Perhaps it is a tire pressure issue, maybe front forks.

This year I had the shock bushings replaced, new front and rear tire (avon), rear oil changed 3 times now in the course of working on the rear, forks rebuilt.

This wallowing issue is seemingly new. I've never encountered it before until I got into this trip.

Meanwhile the bike is otherwise running as a Valk should.



One of the things that it might be is load in the bags and trunk. perhaps the increased load in the trunk is increasing the instability at interstate speeds.

When I get back I'll get things out of the trunk and hit the interstate again to see if this is part of the problem

[Fazer]

If you are worried about wheel balance, see if you can get a bottle of Ride On.  You may need two of the 8oz size.  You'll have to be able to re-inflate the tire after application.  I think this stuff works great.

[hubcapsc]

could the "wallowing" be something unrelated, like bad shock bushings?

-Mike "cheap and easy..."

[The emperor has no clothes]

could the "wallowing" be something unrelated, like bad shock bushings?

-Mike "cheap and easy..."

I think he recently replaced them. I'm wondering what his tire pressures are ?

[Sorcerer]

If your still feeling a wallow I would suspect a bad new rear tire. I had a cobra that was delaminating from the inside. Check your rear tire. Mine looked like a slit at the out side edge of the tread. Mine had air bubbles inside.

[old2soon]

Shock bushings VERY easy to check. Remove upper bolt-if not CENTERED it needs to be R & Rd. Load distribution could be playing havoc with your ride. My first introduction to bad shock bushings was shortly after I got Her and more noticeable on decel than any other riding regime. RIDE SAFE.

[John Schmidt]

What about torque on the fork nut. Too tight will cause it to hunt and you end up chasing it with the handlebars.