question

[Wizzard]

so should Obama salute this marine or not?
https://www.facebook.com/UncleSamsMisguidedChildren.Net/videos/540820199447317/

[baldo]

Here we go again, just like clockwork. This 'scandal' will get bounced all around for a week, then disappear until the next time.......

It's tiresome.

But to answer your question. I think by 'rule' I don't believe he's required to do it. However, optics wise, I think he should.

[Chrisj CMA]

All I saw was an invitation to join Facebook. Not gonna do it.  So I'll guess it's probably taken out of context even though the current POTUS doesn't have a high regard for several American institutions one being the uniformed services.

[Alberta Patriot]

Here we go again, just like clockwork. This 'scandal' will get bounced all around for a week, then disappear until the next time.......
It's tiresome.
[/quote]


Well....You've lobbed a few bombs yourself so I guess maybe you need to learn how to take as well as you give.

[Serk]

Well, seeing as Obama is a hard core communist, and one of the goals of communism is to establish a class-less society, I'd say he's setting a good example of what classless looks like.

[baldo]

Here we go again, just like clockwork. This 'scandal' will get bounced all around for a week, then disappear until the next time.......
It's tiresome.

Well....You've lobbed a few bombs yourself so I guess maybe you need to learn how to take as well as you give.
[/quote]

Well, looks like we have a new player....thanks for your input....

[baldo]

Well, seeing as Obama is a hard core communist, and one of the goals of communism is to establish a class-less society, I'd say he's setting a good example of what classless looks like.

Oh Serk......

[Willow]

I've never become comfortable with person in civilian clothes rendering a hand salute but proper behavior would at least call for him to acknowledge the salute.  

[The emperor has no clothes]

I've never become comfortable with person in civilian clothes rendering a hand salute but proper behavior would at least call for him to acknowledge the salute.  

This is far off the subject. But you reminded me of something that happened years ago. When my Dad died we decided to have his ashes buried on Elmendorf AFB with my sister who had died at 4 days old. My Dad never said his preferences other than he was adamant that he wanted to be cremated. Anyway at the humble ceremony that the Air Force provided a couple E-2's folded the flag and one of them came to me and handed it to me and saluted. I was dumbfounded at what to do.  I returned the salute and received the flag. It bothered me for years about the lapse in protocol on my part. I think 4 years in the Navy and saluting just became a reflex.

[solo1]

Our chapter of the Korean War veterans have paid tribute to one of ours at his funeral service by hand saluting slowly. We were in our Korean War Vets uniform with garrison caps.

We salute the American Flag when taking the Pledge at the beginning of our meetings. Hand salute if wearing the caps, hand over the heart if not.

Now, by definition, are we civilians and shouldn't be doing this?  I returned the same salute to a captain and Air force uniformed personnel when I returned from the Honor Flight.

After all, all of us who served still are military at heart.

I could not bring up the URL about POTUS so don't know that story.

[Pappy!]

Well, seeing as Obama is a hard core communist, and one of the goals of communism is to establish a class-less society, I'd say he's setting a good example of what classless looks like.

That was one of your best ones yet, Serk! Love it!

[Skinhead]

My understanding is (and I believe this is the directive(?) from congress) that veterans in civilian clothes may render a salute to the colors, or to a deceased veteran at their funeral/internment, ie, during the playing of Taps.  This is what I did at my father's funeral when the honor guard played taps and fired their 21 shot salute.  I also rendered a salute when they draped the casket with the colors when it was removed from the hearse and transported into the church.

I may note that the funeral director had no idea how to drape the colors, he first draped the casket with the field of stars over the deceased's right side.  I participated on many honor guards while in the military and was taught that the proper display of the colors is with the field over the deceased's heart.  I don't know if he thought I was an A-hole when I corrected his mistake, but didn't really care.

Being as obama never served in the military, I don't think it is required nor proper for him to render a salute, but an acknowledgment of the Marine's show of respect would be warranted.  Also, since he outranks the Marine, proper military courtesy, is for the lower rank to render the salute and the higher rank to return it, not necessarily for him to salute the Marine.

[old2soon]

as potus AND cic-my feeling as an ex Squid Airedalethe Salute. At the P G R missions I attend I have rendered quite a few salutes. Bee to Memorial Day Ceremonies at Ft. Leonard Wood and have asked for and received salutes from as high as 4 Star Generals. hen they see the Viet Nam service ribbons on my vest it usually starts a conversation. I feel as others here do that have Served-my Oath that I took upon Joining the Navy has NEVER been cancelled. BUT I've sen videos of the current potus disrespecting The Flag so NOTHING he does or does not do no longer surprises me Saddens me-YES-surprises me NO! As to him never having served he is cic.  RIDE SAFE.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Well, seeing as Obama is a hard core communist, and one of the goals of communism is to establish a class-less society, I'd say he's setting a good example of what classless looks like.

That was one of your best ones yet, Serk! Love it!

I guess perspective is relative. I thought it one of his worst.   

[Willow]

...
Now, by definition, are we civilians and shouldn't be doing this?  ...

I can't say what is proper or not, especially by today's standards.  Many years ago when I was an active duty United States Marine we did not render a salute when either uncovered or in civilian clothes.  That's why I'm not particularly comfortable with it.  When in uniform we did salute an officer or an officer's vehicle sticker but did not expect the officer if in civilian clothes to return the salute.

That said, for veterans what is or is not considered in uniform may differ from that of an active duty Marine.

Having said I'm not comfortable with a hand salute from one in civilian clothes, my loving wife will tell you that I often do precisely that when I see a Marine Corps sticker in traffic and I often do it left handed if riding.  I do so to give a recognizable sign of my acknowledgement and sympathy.  A Marine salute is easily recognized as opposed to those of the lesser services.         

[The emperor has no clothes]

...
Now, by definition, are we civilians and shouldn't be doing this?  ...

I can't say what is proper or not, especially by today's standards.  Many years ago when I was an active duty United States Marine we did not render a salute when either uncovered or in civilian clothes.  That's why I'm not particularly comfortable with it.  When in uniform we did salute an officer or an officer's vehicle sticker but did not expect the officer if in civilian clothes to return the salute.

That said, for veterans what is or is not considered in uniform may differ from that of an active duty Marine.

Having said I'm not comfortable with a hand salute from one in civilian clothes, my loving wife will tell you that I often do precisely that when I see a Marine Corps sticker in traffic and I often do it left handed if riding.  I do so to give a recognizable sign of my acknowledgement and sympathy.  A Marine salute is easily recognized as opposed to those of the lesser services.         

(your filter is starting to act up) 

[Chrisj CMA]

...
Now, by definition, are we civilians and shouldn't be doing this?  ...

I can't say what is proper or not, especially by today's standards.  Many years ago when I was an active duty United States Marine we did not render a salute when either uncovered or in civilian clothes.  That's why I'm not particularly comfortable with it.  When in uniform we did salute an officer or an officer's vehicle sticker but did not expect the officer if in civilian clothes to return the salute.

That said, for veterans what is or is not considered in uniform may differ from that of an active duty Marine.

Having said I'm not comfortable with a hand salute from one in civilian clothes, my loving wife will tell you that I often do precisely that when I see a Marine Corps sticker in traffic and I often do it left handed if riding.  I do so to give a recognizable sign of my acknowledgement and sympathy.  A Marine salute is easily recognized as opposed to those of the lesser services.         

Lesser services........ that's precious.  When I was in Air Force Special Operations (Pararescue) We all thought we were the best.  But I never thought of the other services as lesser.  Maybe I missed your sarcasm.   

[The emperor has no clothes]

...
Now, by definition, are we civilians and shouldn't be doing this?  ...

I can't say what is proper or not, especially by today's standards.  Many years ago when I was an active duty United States Marine we did not render a salute when either uncovered or in civilian clothes.  That's why I'm not particularly comfortable with it.  When in uniform we did salute an officer or an officer's vehicle sticker but did not expect the officer if in civilian clothes to return the salute.

That said, for veterans what is or is not considered in uniform may differ from that of an active duty Marine.

Having said I'm not comfortable with a hand salute from one in civilian clothes, my loving wife will tell you that I often do precisely that when I see a Marine Corps sticker in traffic and I often do it left handed if riding.  I do so to give a recognizable sign of my acknowledgement and sympathy.  A Marine salute is easily recognized as opposed to those of the lesser services.         

Lesser services........ that's precious.  When I was in Air Force Special Operations (Pararescue) We all thought we were the best.  But I never thought of the other services as lesser.  Maybe I missed your sarcasm.   

Now how can you be the best and not have the others lesser ? Unless..... Deep down you knew you weren't the best.  It's just some good natured kidding.

[Chrisj CMA]

...
Now, by definition, are we civilians and shouldn't be doing this?  ...

I can't say what is proper or not, especially by today's standards.  Many years ago when I was an active duty United States Marine we did not render a salute when either uncovered or in civilian clothes.  That's why I'm not particularly comfortable with it.  When in uniform we did salute an officer or an officer's vehicle sticker but did not expect the officer if in civilian clothes to return the salute.

That said, for veterans what is or is not considered in uniform may differ from that of an active duty Marine.

Having said I'm not comfortable with a hand salute from one in civilian clothes, my loving wife will tell you that I often do precisely that when I see a Marine Corps sticker in traffic and I often do it left handed if riding.  I do so to give a recognizable sign of my acknowledgement and sympathy.  A Marine salute is easily recognized as opposed to those of the lesser services.         

Lesser services........ that's precious.  When I was in Air Force Special Operations (Pararescue) We all thought we were the best.  But I never thought of the other services as lesser.  Maybe I missed your sarcasm.   

Now how can you be the best and not have the others lesser ? Unless..... Deep down you knew you weren't the best.  It's just some good natured kidding.

Could be meathead, but for me the ribbing ended when I retired.  Kinda like no more wedgies once graduating high school.

I guess them poor  "jar heads" took more jabs than they gave so it takes longer to get even.

[The emperor has no clothes]

...
Now, by definition, are we civilians and shouldn't be doing this?  ...

I can't say what is proper or not, especially by today's standards.  Many years ago when I was an active duty United States Marine we did not render a salute when either uncovered or in civilian clothes.  That's why I'm not particularly comfortable with it.  When in uniform we did salute an officer or an officer's vehicle sticker but did not expect the officer if in civilian clothes to return the salute.

That said, for veterans what is or is not considered in uniform may differ from that of an active duty Marine.

Having said I'm not comfortable with a hand salute from one in civilian clothes, my loving wife will tell you that I often do precisely that when I see a Marine Corps sticker in traffic and I often do it left handed if riding.  I do so to give a recognizable sign of my acknowledgement and sympathy.  A Marine salute is easily recognized as opposed to those of the lesser services.         

Lesser services........ that's precious.  When I was in Air Force Special Operations (Pararescue) We all thought we were the best.  But I never thought of the other services as lesser.  Maybe I missed your sarcasm.   

Now how can you be the best and not have the others lesser ? Unless..... Deep down you knew you weren't the best.  It's just some good natured kidding.

Could be meathead, but for me the ribbing ended when I retired.  Kinda like no more wedgies once graduating high school.

I guess them poor  "jar heads" took more jabs than they gave so it takes longer to get even.

you know I may know the source of your angst . I never endured a wedgie in school. Of course Jarheads are "special". Everybody ex-military knows that. 

[Rams]

Though it's been decades, it would be proper for a senior officer to acknowledge the salute of a subordinate whether in uniform or civilian attire.   A salute need not be returned but should be acknowledged.   I always felt that if saluted, it was only proper, appropriate and expected to return the salute unless carrying something in both hands.   The rules may have changed.    Obama being the POTUS is not required to return any salute but unlike many seems to ignore his military peons.    He didn't used to place his hand over his heart during the national anthem either but some don't care about that either.   Just my observation..........

[Rams]

Now how can you be the best and not have the others lesser ? Unless..... Deep down you knew you weren't the best.  It's just some good natured kidding.

As a young Marine, I knew I was a member of the finest fighting force ever assembled on this planet and I still feel that way.   But, the Marines are limited in equipment and mission.   They can be put into situations they are not designed or trained for and therefore may not be the best option.   Those times and situations are rare but, they do exist.

As every senior officer and tactician knows, until you hold the ground, you have not taken the battlefield.   Therefore, the need for other support services.   I won't say lesser, I was also in the Army but, I always have been and always will be a Marine proud to have served with the best.

[Oldfishguy]

Honestly, it would be awkward (at best) for a President to salute when they were never in the military. A simple acknowledgement of the Marines presence though . . .

I was recruited under the "Be All That You Can Be" campaign, and the tune still rings true.  That, and a promise of a few years in Europe (peacetime environment) helped; nobody promised a peacetime enlistment duration though.  Marines are a different breed, everybody who served knows it; you carry that badge for life.

[Earl43P]

http://www.businessinsider.com/saluting-bill-splits-veterans-military-2013-6

Veterans and Saluting Out of Uniform

A provision of the 2009 Defense Authorization Act changed federal law to allow U.S. veterans and military personnel not in uniform to render the military hand-salute when the national anthem is played.

This change adds to a provision which was passed in the 2008 Defense Bill, which authorized veterans and military personnel in civilian clothes to render the military salute during the raising, lowering or passing of the flag.

Traditionally, veterans’ service organizations rendered the hand-salute during the national anthem and at events involving the national flag while wearing their organization’s headgear, although this wasn't actually spelled out in federal law.


^from: https://www.thebalance.com/saluting-in-civilian-clothes-3356980

Semper Fi.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Now how can you be the best and not have the others lesser ? Unless..... Deep down you knew you weren't the best.  It's just some good natured kidding.

As a young Marine, I knew I was a member of the finest fighting force ever assembled on this planet and I still feel that way.   

Maybe, that's pretty hard to quantify. What about Genghis Kahn's hordes, the 300 Spartans, etc. As a young Sailor, I think I was a member of the finest floating flotilla that put the fine fighting forces in harms way. (But we were mostly happy just to get them off our ship) 
All of us ex-military should be proud of ourselves and each other AND BE WILLING TO TAKE SOME RIBBING BETWEEN EACH OTHER.  I think the Spartans would kick butt on some Jarheads.
My dad was 7 years Air Force
My brother 4 years Army
My uncle 4 years Marines (Vietnam)
And me 4 years Navy
I think I have a fair idea of all of the services. 3 of them should thank their lucky stars for the one that matters. 

[Wizzard]

Here we go again, just like clockwork. This 'scandal' will get bounced all around for a week, then disappear until the next time.......

It's tiresome.

But to answer your question. I think by 'rule' I don't believe he's required to do it. However, optics wise, I think he should.

Baldo,, you can be real abrasive. I asked a genuine question with no political end in mind,, however you try to spin it that way. You need to practice what you preach.  :roll:You obviously have a short fuse.

[baldo]

Here we go again, just like clockwork. This 'scandal' will get bounced all around for a week, then disappear until the next time.......

It's tiresome.

But to answer your question. I think by 'rule' I don't believe he's required to do it. However, optics wise, I think he should.

Baldo,, you can be real abrasive. I asked a genuine question with no political end in mind,, however you try to spin it that way. You need to practice what you preach.  :roll:You obviously have a short fuse.

You're right, Wizzard. I'm aware of that.

My first response was what you see. Then I re-read your post, and saw it for the question that it was. That's why I answered it.

My point was that every single time this comes up, it's endless BS, with the same comments and posts. It always ends up the same way with the same answers. That's why I responded the way I did. Yes, it was knee jerk and I could have pulled it. But I was making a point.

[Wizzard]

Well thanks for admitting it.
I usually find that "knee jerk reactions" cause a phenomenon that's known as "putting mouth in gear before engaging brain" but maybe that is just me. I try to refrain from knee jerks. They have not served me well.

Having never served in the military,, came real close to  VietNam,, draft # was 32,, I did not know the answer.

[baldo]

Well thanks for admitting it.
I usually find that "knee jerk reactions" cause a phenomenon that's known as "putting mouth in gear before engaging brain" but maybe that is just me. I try to refrain from knee jerks. They have not served me well.

Having never served in the military,, came real close to  VietNam,, draft # was 32,, I did not know the answer.

No problem...

Diplomacy has never really been my long suit....

I haven't served either. I had a brother in each branch, my Dad and all his brothers were Marines.

I tested for the Marines, did well and was accepted, but decided not to go in. At times I regret it...

[The emperor has no clothes]

Well thanks for admitting it.
I usually find that "knee jerk reactions" cause a phenomenon that's known as "putting mouth in gear before engaging brain" but maybe that is just me. I try to refrain from knee jerks. They have not served me well.

Having never served in the military,, came real close to  VietNam,, draft # was 32,, I did not know the answer.

"Can't we all get along"  
Randy, I served 4 years Navy and don't have a firm grasp on all the protocols. Don't feel bad. There are only like 548 billion rules and regs in the military.

Damn, I'm on fire. It's only 6:30 am, and I've already quoted Paul Harvey and Rodney King.  

[The emperor has no clothes]

Well thanks for admitting it.
I usually find that "knee jerk reactions" cause a phenomenon that's known as "putting mouth in gear before engaging brain" but maybe that is just me. I try to refrain from knee jerks. They have not served me well.

Having never served in the military,, came real close to  VietNam,, draft # was 32,, I did not know the answer.

No problem...

Diplomacy has never really been my long suit....

I haven't served either. I had a brother in each branch, my Dad and all his brothers were Marines.

I tested for the Marines, did well and was accepted, but decided not to go in. At times I regret it...

Don't regret it. You could have ended up like Willow.  (just joking my nonfiltered friend). Seriously though, I'm glad I was in, it's a large part of who I am. But at the time I couldn't get out soon enough.

[Serk]

I tested for the Marines, did well and was accepted, but decided not to go in. At times I regret it...

I've had similar regrets. The Marines specifically were begging me to join so much it was bordering on harassment (Not bragging, but evidently I did pretty well on the ASVAB test they gave us in school and The Marines really wanted me.) I finally had to get rather rude with the recruiter to get them to stop calling me.

I often wonder how different my life would be, I would be had I chosen an alternate path.

I do regret not joining (Although the one service I WANTED to join never called me.) but if I could change it, I wouldn't, because then I wouldn't be where I am now, I wouldn't  know the people I know and I wouldn't have the family I have.

Maybe I'd roll the dice and come out better, maybe not, but I wouldn't give up what I have now for anything.


(Edit - And yeah, another threadjack, but some threads improve with a jacking, IMHO...)

[Wizzard]

I always figured I was going ,, but the war ended before my number was called. I would have proudly served. A guy a year older than me that always sat by me on the school bus went and came home in a body bag.
We roll in life with what we are handed. 

[Willow]

Okay.  Short explanation for those who get their panties in a wad.

My friend says, "We always thought we were the best.  We never thought of the others as lesser."  I can't make any sense of that unless what he meant to portray was that they thought they were the best but would never say it out loud.  That would be a demonstration of why we have never been able to carry on a meaningful conversation of any real depth.    I tend to say what I think.  I have little or no sense of pretense, excepting of course when I am intentionally joking.

I did say service and not unit.  Each of the services has within them their highly disciplines and skilled elite units. The Navy Seals, the Army's Green Beret or perhaps even Rangers, the Air Force's rescue team, and the Marine's Force Recon.  Those units are certainly special.

As a whole the United States Marine Corps has more discipline emphasized and are more committed to the military way of life.  If one wants to be sure that more enemy are killed for a lower cost, they call the Marines.  If one needs air support to come closer to the enemy and be less concerned for their own safety, they call for Marine flyers.  If one wants their embassies guarded effectively around the world they use the Marines.  Marine artillery will tend to be more accurately delivered than any other.  If one desires the finest military band to perform at the county's capital they will call for the Marines.  If one wants quality training for their Naval officer candidates they will call upon United States Marine Corps drill instructors.

It may not be socially acceptable to express aloud, but anyone who is knowledgeable and considers comparison will identify that the U.S. Marine Corps is the best military force the country has to offer.  We have at least two members who served in both the Marine Corps and the U.S. Army.  I would consider strongly their assessment.

Saying the U.S. Marine Corps is the best service does not mean or imply that every individual Marine is a better fighting man than any U.S. soldier or even sailor.  What it means is that when things are really rough and you need to be sure the job gets done you will send in the Marines.

Meathead, you know any Spartans?  I don't.  What information you have concerning them is centuries old.  I'm fairly certain that even armed with the secondary weaponry provided the U.S. Marine Corps that a platoon of Marines would make quick work of 300 sword brandishing Spartans.  Truthfully on a man for man comparison very few modern military men would be able to stand up to the fighters of 300 B.C.

My father was a Navy pilot.  My grandfather was a Cavalry Sergeant.  I had uncles who were Army and Navy.  To my knowledge I have no relatives who served in the Corps.

The recognizable distinction of a U.S. Marine salute results from a great deal of emphasis during boot camp.  It is never casual.  It forms a straight line from the elbow to the finger tips. The thumb is tucked in line with the rest of the hand, never left to droop below or stick out.  The upper arm is parallel to the deck.  It is presented and snapped away sharply.

If you choose to use the term jarhead take the time to learn where it came from and what it meant.

Be proud of who you have chosen to be.  Don't be tricked into believing that simply articulating that another group is no better than your own will raise your status.  Find me a Marine who does not believe that the United States Marine Corps is the finest fighting force as a whole.  Find me a soldier or sailor who believe that as a whole their service is the finest fighting force the country has to offer.  I am the least among the Marines but I am proud to be one.  So is the young man who opened the door for and saluted the President of the United States.        

[Chrisj CMA]

So, I guess it wasn't fun  ribbing

Yes, each service has their elite warriors. Honor, service, dedication among others is what makes them great.  I was in the Air Force.  All Pararescuemen are (obviously). This does not mean everyone in the the AF are the same caliber.  there is not another career field I know of that has a washout rate as high.

Same goes for all the services.  There are the great and not so much in each one.  Taken on a whole, all branches are just people.  Some will end up failing, others will go on to be great heros.

None of the services as a whole are superior or inferior.

No one comes and saves your ass better than Pararescuemen...except of course Jesus Christ period

[Wizzard]

So, I guess it wasn't fun  ribbing

Yes, each service has their elite warriors. Honor, service, dedication among others is what makes them great.  I was in the Air Force.  All Pararescuemen are (obviously). This does not mean everyone in the the AF are the same caliber.  there is not another career field I know of that has a washout rate as high.

Same goes for all the services.  There are the great and not so much in each one.  Taken on a whole, all branches are just people.  Some will end up failing, others will go on to be great heros.

None of the services as a whole are superior or inferior.

No one comes and saves your ass better than Pararescuemen...except of course Jesus Christ period

One saves your life,, the other saves  your soul. 

[Willow]

One saves your life,, the other saves  your soul. 

Actually He does save your life.  Sometimes in more ways than one.   

No, it wasn't.

I was sitting across the room from a man yesterday while he was trying to discern what makes me what I am.  I commented on my history that I had left high school after my junior year to join the U.S.Marine Corps.  He asked me why I had chosen the Marine Corps.  I couldn't make any sense to why he had asked that question.

[Chrisj CMA]

No, it wasn't.

Well I pray you get over yourself someday

I trained with Marines in Okinawa, with Army 82nd AirBorne at Ft Bragg.  Also Delta force.  Along side Navy SEALS in an undisclosed location and Army Rangers in various situations.  I have the highest respect for each of them regardless of their branch of service.

Not every solder can be a Ranger, or AirBorne for that matter,  all Sailors can't make it through SEAL School.  Very few Airmen can make it through Pararescue training.

Not every Marine can make it through SEAL, PJ, RANGER or AirBorne training either.  The Marines has their average performers just like the rest of the services. 

Average just doesn't cut it in these SPECIAL Jobs.  No, I don't buy it that all Marines are SPECIAL in this way.

 

[The emperor has no clothes]

One saves your life,, the other saves  your soul. 

Actually He does save your life.  Sometimes in more ways than one.   

No, it wasn't.

I was sitting across the room from a man yesterday while he was trying to discern what makes me what I am.  I commented on my history that I had left high school after my junior year to join the U.S.Marine Corps.  He asked me why I had chosen the Marine Corps.  I couldn't make any sense to why he had asked that question.

The question makes sense to me.  People join for all kinds of reasons. Our choices in life provide a glimpse into our psyche. Maybe he didn't know much about the different services also.

[Skinhead]

I always thought the Marines had the prettiest uniforms.

(That was especially for you Carl.)

Seriously, I always thought the Marine uniform is the sharpest of all the services.  I attended MP school @ Ft. Gordon, Ga.  The Marine Corps sends their personnel there as well.  I was amazed at the amount of time those Marines spent trying to look pretty, The attention to detail re their uniforms, whether dress or utility always impressed me.  I guess that is either a result of Marine DIs beating it into your head, or pride in their uniform, or maybe both.