Today's wake up call

[mike72903]

Today's wake up call at 7:03AM was brought to us courtesy of the Oklahoma Gas and Oil Industry.
Shook 7 states.  5.6 magnitude but felt over a wide area due to geologic conditions on the mid south. Quite a surprise.

[dreamaker]

But fracking is safe, they said so!  Who knows why it happens!

[Patrick]

So, we are blaming a quake on an oil company !  Do they get blamed for the recent one in Italy too ? 

[old2soon]

Felt it here in Missouri. Been in California japan the P I and Texas-when quakes have occurred. Quite possibly THE most helpless feeling around. RIDE SAFE.

[Willow]

Today's wake up call at 7:03AM was brought to us courtesy of the Oklahoma Gas and Oil Industry.
Shook 7 states.  5.6 magnitude but felt over a wide area due to geologic conditions on the mid south. Quite a surprise.

I'm curious as to why you believe the Oklahoma gas and oil industry could be responsible for a 5.6 magnitude quake.  I won't take you seriously at all but I am interested in hearing the explanation. 

[Gavin_Sons]

Today's wake up call at 7:03AM was brought to us courtesy of the Oklahoma Gas and Oil Industry.
Shook 7 states.  5.6 magnitude but felt over a wide area due to geologic conditions on the mid south. Quite a surprise.

I'm curious as to why you believe the Oklahoma gas and oil industry could be responsible for a 5.6 magnitude quake.  I won't take you seriously at all but I am interested in hearing the explanation. 

Willow, this is the kind of logic Clinton supporters are blessed with. Next it will be Trumps fault. 

[Willow]

It was a little disconcerting.  The house shook for the better part of several minutes with an occasional rest.  We're not accustomed to tremors here and as near as I can tell we are over two hundred miles from the epicenter.

[Gryphon Rider]

I would think that if fracking did trigger earthquakes, they would release the tension before it was able to build up even higher and cause an even bigger quake when it finally did release naturally.  Kind of like seeding clouds to prevent large hail.

[old2soon]

My brother is up at his place in Wisconsin and was having his coffee on the patio when he saw the lake-in his words-shaking-about that time. RIDE SAFE.

[baldo]

For your reading pleasure...

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/research/induced/

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/03/160328-earthquakes-map-risks-usgs-science/

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-man-made-quakes-20150424-story.html

[dreamaker]

Correct me if I am wrong!  When you have plates shift you have an earthquake, but when you have major void under you, than what is it? Here in Michigan we have sink holes, seems often and I know Florida has several, one incident there, a guy laying in his bed at home, suddenly get swallowed in a sink hole under his house. Gone! Just that easy.  So if you have these voids underground because the liquids are removed and start collapsing, what would that feel like?  They say they fill the voids, and “The check is in the mail and I will love you forever……………”.

[gordonv]

So if you have these voids underground because the liquids are removed and start collapsing, what would that feel like?

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure someone will), but sink holes are caused by the soil underground being removed, usually by an underground "river", when the roof fails. Not by the removal of the liquid. This would stop sink holes from happening.

[dreamaker]

So if you have these voids underground because the liquids are removed and start collapsing, what would that feel like?

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure someone will), but sink holes are caused by the soil underground being removed, usually by an underground "river", when the roof fails. Not by the removal of the liquid. This would stop sink holes from happening.

Don't get wrong I am shooting from the hip on this, I agree with you on the explanation.  As we know liquids don't compress, so it supports what is above it, now when you remove it, you basically have a big hole with nothing supporting it,  with allot of pressure on it, what do you think over time will happen.

[JWV 99 I]

Sink holes are caused by mother nature, water migrates it way form the surface, as it makes it way through limestone a chemical reaction occurs and removes some of the material. I am an engineer and very aware of the cause of sink holes.  What I am not sure of is if pumping water blow the surface has an adverse reaction. I am one that believes folks jump on a band wagon far to quick, like global warming had to be renamed as we have been cooling off for a while.  I try to not get into these types of discussion, but I think the 4 or 5 ice cold buds may have weaken me to respond.  Not looking for an argument, just stating an opinion on the issue.

Ride safe and enjoy the holiday weekend.

[dreamaker]

I agree with you on the global warming, also it's not arguing, it's brainstorming, we don't learn anything if we don't ask the question!

[F-six]

I think you need to separate the natural earthquakes, like the one you will see at the San Andreas Fault in California and earthquakes caused by activities of people. Here in Holland we had one of the biggest gas-fields in Europe, in Groningen (don't even try to pronounce that!). But after 50 years of pumping gas out of that field, we start to have earthquakes too. This started to happen a few years ago. And this is in a place where geological speaking there was no risk whatsoever for earthquakes.
Investigations by the government and the gas company showed that these quakes were caused by pumping gas. The gas company is now due to pay for the damage they caused. Which I think is only fair, because they made billions and billions over the years, so to pay a few billion in damage won't really hurt the gas company. And they will be responsible for future damage, but they still want to pump gas, so there is still a profit to be made.

Here are some pictures of the damage: https://www.google.nl/search?q=aardbeving+groningen&espv=2&biw=1499&bih=1267&site=webhp&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwi0gMXC-PPOAhVGWxoKHeSuDQAQ_AUIBigB

[CajunRider]

Investigations by the government and the gas company showed that these quakes were caused by pumping gas. The gas company is now due to pay for the damage they caused. Which I think is only fair, because they made billions and billions over the years, so to pay a few billion in damage won't really hurt the gas company. And they will be responsible for future damage, but they still want to pump gas, so there is still a profit to be made.

So the gas company is at fault for selling gas...

Do you hold any fault for buying and using said gas??

Or is the gas company the only one paying because they are the only ones who can afford billions?

[cookiedough]

My brother is up at his place in Wisconsin and was having his coffee on the patio when he saw the lake-in his words-shaking-about that time. RIDE SAFE.

what is REALLY in his coffee mug?   

[JimC]

Today's wake up call at 7:03AM was brought to us courtesy of the Oklahoma Gas and Oil Industry.

Correct me if I am wrong, and I very well might be. You are blaming this quake on the gas and oil companies, is there a possibility that it could be the people, and the farming industry?

What it comes down to is that we don't know the ramifications of our present life style, and will not for decades to come.

Ogallala aquifer drying up     =    http://able2know.org/topic/144652-1

It would seem to me that removing gas is not much different than removing water? I am sure someone with much more knowledge than me will have an answer.

Jim

[therapist]

I heard that Ok has more earthquakes now, than anywhere in the world. Not sure if that is true
but there is this.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/225753-united-states-geological-survey-confirms-it-fracking-causes-earthquakes

[F-six]

Investigations by the government and the gas company showed that these quakes were caused by pumping gas. The gas company is now due to pay for the damage they caused. Which I think is only fair, because they made billions and billions over the years, so to pay a few billion in damage won't really hurt the gas company. And they will be responsible for future damage, but they still want to pump gas, so there is still a profit to be made.

So the gas company is at fault for selling gas...

Do you hold any fault for buying and using said gas??

Or is the gas company the only one paying because they are the only ones who can afford billions?

Mmm... I think I got the pumping thing wrong, a wrong translation of the dutch 'pump' which actually means here 'get it out of the ground'. And I now realize that in the US you guys mean by pumping 'putting fuel into your car'.

So no, the company isn't at fault for selling gas. The company is at fault because they drilled for gas, pumped the gas out of the ground and not making sure they weren't causing any damage.
How would you feel if your house shaked to pieces because of a quake caused by drilling for gas? Wouldn't you sue the company or would you say 'oh well, bad luck, let's build another house, I'm so glad the gas company didn't suffer anything'?

I'm not a big fan of the outrages suing culture in the USA and I'm really glad we don't have that overhere in Holland. But in this case paying for the damage by the gas company was more than justified.

[Varmintmist]

Just a question, but you all know fracking has been going on for closer to 100 years?

Think major quakes would have happened before this?

Its kind of like the hooey about people lighting their water on fire in PA. Can they light their faucet off? Yep, and they have been doing that since water wells went in the ground pre fracking of any kind anywhere in any part of the world.

[Gavin_Sons]

Investigations by the government and the gas company showed that these quakes were caused by pumping gas. The gas company is now due to pay for the damage they caused. Which I think is only fair, because they made billions and billions over the years, so to pay a few billion in damage won't really hurt the gas company. And they will be responsible for future damage, but they still want to pump gas, so there is still a profit to be made.

So the gas company is at fault for selling gas...

Do you hold any fault for buying and using said gas??

Or is the gas company the only one paying because they are the only ones who can afford billions?

Mmm... I think I got the pumping thing wrong, a wrong translation of the dutch 'pump' which actually means here 'get it out of the ground'. And I now realize that in the US you guys mean by pumping 'putting fuel into your car'.

So no, the company isn't at fault for selling gas. The company is at fault because they drilled for gas, pumped the gas out of the ground and not making sure they weren't causing any damage.
How would you feel if your house shaked to pieces because of a quake caused by drilling for gas? Wouldn't you sue the company or would you say 'oh well, bad luck, let's build another house, I'm so glad the gas company didn't suffer anything'?

I'm not a big fan of the outrages suing culture in the USA and I'm really glad we don't have that overhere in Holland. But in this case paying for the damage by the gas company was more than justified.

And everyone there supported the gas company. You bought their gas so you supported their reckless behavior. Maybe all the consumers should have to pay also. I still dont believe fracking caused this. Not enough evidence for me. I think it is just how the earth goes through changes. But we have to blame everything on something.

[therapist]

Just a question, but you all know fracking has been going on for closer to 100 years?

Think major quakes would have happened before this?

Its kind of like the hooey about people lighting their water on fire in PA. Can they light their faucet off? Yep, and they have been doing that since water wells went in the ground pre fracking of any kind anywhere in any part of the world.

Actually, it's closer to 60 years. But it is only in the past ten that they went from fracking vertical to horizontal wells. That's when the trouble started.

http://globalenergyinitiative.org/insights/58-fracking-has-been-around-since-1949-why-the-recent-controversy.html

[Rams]

I won't pretend to know what cause that quake but, we've been digging and drilling for centuries, pulling liquids and solids out of the earth and putting things back in some cases and not doing so in others.   The earth is no different than any other structure, screw with it enough and something is going to give.   

It kind of makes sense to me that all the human activities that have occurred in Oklahoma over the last two hundred or so years may have an effect.    Maybe not, not qualified to say but, my uneducated opinion is that we are reaping the harvest of what's been planted over the years.    Not suggesting it isn't worth the risk, life is full of challenges and risks.  Deal with it.

[dreamaker]

Question about fracking!  Now if you frack horizontally, does that weaken the area being fracked, also I understand the inject chemicals or solvents to extract oil.  Do these chemical remain in the ground, will it get into the water tables and cause long term problems?  Also there are people out there that refuses to see things unless it hits them like a 2X4.
Every time I hear about this stuff, it reminds me of a movie by Daniel Day Lewis, called "There Will Be Blood" Was about the beginning of the oil industry, if you haven't seen it, watch it, see what you think, remind you of anything. 

[Varmintmist]

Actually, it's closer to 60 years. But it is only in the past ten that they went from fracking vertical to horizontal wells. That's when the trouble started.

http://globalenergyinitiative.org/insights/58-fracking-has-been-around-since-1949-why-the-recent-controversy.html

The writer misses that PA has has oil and gas wells for over 100 years, it isnt new here. FYI the first fracking was in 1866 in Titusville PA. Hydraulic fracking as it is done today started in 1949, so I was wrong, fracking is about 150 years old. Ref Roberts Petroleum Torpedo Company.

When you frack a vertical well you push water down and it expands into the rock around it, it is not stuck in a tube going into the earth. The horizontal pads have stopped the footprint of the well sites, not what would have been drilled. Before they went horizontal, they just drilled more wells vertically. I can take a person to 5 vertical wells within a 1/2 square mile of my house with 5 separate well heads, and one Marcellus with 1 vert and 6 horizontal that takes up a 1/4th of a ac now. The same amount of area would still have been covered with a lot more mess.

[F-six]

Investigations by the government and the gas company showed that these quakes were caused by pumping gas. The gas company is now due to pay for the damage they caused. Which I think is only fair, because they made billions and billions over the years, so to pay a few billion in damage won't really hurt the gas company. And they will be responsible for future damage, but they still want to pump gas, so there is still a profit to be made.

So the gas company is at fault for selling gas...

Do you hold any fault for buying and using said gas??

Or is the gas company the only one paying because they are the only ones who can afford billions?

Mmm... I think I got the pumping thing wrong, a wrong translation of the dutch 'pump' which actually means here 'get it out of the ground'. And I now realize that in the US you guys mean by pumping 'putting fuel into your car'.

So no, the company isn't at fault for selling gas. The company is at fault because they drilled for gas, pumped the gas out of the ground and not making sure they weren't causing any damage.
How would you feel if your house shaked to pieces because of a quake caused by drilling for gas? Wouldn't you sue the company or would you say 'oh well, bad luck, let's build another house, I'm so glad the gas company didn't suffer anything'?

I'm not a big fan of the outrages suing culture in the USA and I'm really glad we don't have that overhere in Holland. But in this case paying for the damage by the gas company was more than justified.

And everyone there supported the gas company. You bought their gas so you supported their reckless behavior. Maybe all the consumers should have to pay also. I still dont believe fracking caused this. Not enough evidence for me. I think it is just how the earth goes through changes. But we have to blame everything on something.

No, the consumers didn't support reckless behavior, they didn't have the knowledge. The gas company had the knowledge and the means to prevent the damage. They didn't. They only had eye for maximizing their profits and minimizing their costs. It took a few years but in this case the gas company acknowledged the earthquakes were caused by their activities and that it was their fault.
I haven't said anything about the quakes in Oklahoma. I just pointed out that quakes can be caused by human activities.

[MP]

Investigations by the government and the gas company showed that these quakes were caused by pumping gas. The gas company is now due to pay for the damage they caused. Which I think is only fair, because they made billions and billions over the years, so to pay a few billion in damage won't really hurt the gas company. And they will be responsible for future damage, but they still want to pump gas, so there is still a profit to be made.

So the gas company is at fault for selling gas...

Do you hold any fault for buying and using said gas??

Or is the gas company the only one paying because they are the only ones who can afford billions?

Mmm... I think I got the pumping thing wrong, a wrong translation of the dutch 'pump' which actually means here 'get it out of the ground'. And I now realize that in the US you guys mean by pumping 'putting fuel into your car'.

So no, the company isn't at fault for selling gas. The company is at fault because they drilled for gas, pumped the gas out of the ground and not making sure they weren't causing any damage.
How would you feel if your house shaked to pieces because of a quake caused by drilling for gas? Wouldn't you sue the company or would you say 'oh well, bad luck, let's build another house, I'm so glad the gas company didn't suffer anything'?

I'm not a big fan of the outrages suing culture in the USA and I'm really glad we don't have that overhere in Holland. But in this case paying for the damage by the gas company was more than justified.

And everyone there supported the gas company. You bought their gas so you supported their reckless behavior. Maybe all the consumers should have to pay also. I still dont believe fracking caused this. Not enough evidence for me. I think it is just how the earth goes through changes. But we have to blame everything on something.

No, the consumers didn't support reckless behavior, they didn't have the knowledge. The gas company had the knowledge and the means to prevent the damage. They didn't. They only had eye for maximizing their profits and minimizing their costs. It took a few years but in this case the gas company acknowledged the earthquakes were caused by their activities and that it was their fault.
I haven't said anything about the quakes in Oklahoma. I just pointed out that quakes can be caused by human activities.

So, you would be happier if you had NO GAS?

LOTS of fraccing here in ND.. In fact, pretty much developed it horizontally here.  Essentially ALL wells done here.  No earthquakes.  Maybe because there is a fault near OK?

Kind of like every storm is now caused by global warming.  People forget there were storms BEFORE global warming!

I wonder what all the "get rid of all carbon based power" nuts would do for power without the carbon fuels?  There is NO REPLACEMENT in sight, that will come anywhere replacing carbon power.

Our whole standard of living is based on carbon power.  Try to name ONE THING that does not have carbon based power somewhere in it, before it gets on the table in your house.

[Varmintmist]

Question about fracking!  Now if you frack horizontally, does that weaken the area being fracked,

It cracks the rock formation putting tiny cracks through it, so I would say yes

also I understand the inject chemicals or solvents to extract oil.  Do these chemical remain in the ground, will it get into the water tables and cause long term problems?

No they are extracted with the gas and oil. The water table is no deeper than 2000', the closest gas formation, Marcellus, starts at 7000'. So there is a mile of dirt there, and always has been.

 Also there are people out there that refuses to see things unless it hits them like a 2X4.

Agreed

Every time I hear about this stuff, it reminds me of a movie by Daniel Day Lewis, called "There Will Be Blood" Was about the beginning of the oil industry, if you haven't seen it, watch it, see what you think, remind you of anything. 

It reminds me that DD Lewis is a little nuts. Although I did like him in the Last of the Mohicans, just before he became a apprentice cobbler in Italy...... I like historical fiction like There will be Blood, so i might try it.

[dreamaker]

You got to be NUTS to be in the entertainment industry.

[F-six]

No, the consumers didn't support reckless behavior, they didn't have the knowledge. The gas company had the knowledge and the means to prevent the damage. They didn't. They only had eye for maximizing their profits and minimizing their costs. It took a few years but in this case the gas company acknowledged the earthquakes were caused by their activities and that it was their fault.
I haven't said anything about the quakes in Oklahoma. I just pointed out that quakes can be caused by human activities.

So, you would be happier if you had NO GAS?

LOTS of fraccing here in ND.. In fact, pretty much developed it horizontally here.  Essentially ALL wells done here.  No earthquakes.  Maybe because there is a fault near OK?

Kind of like every storm is now caused by global warming.  People forget there were storms BEFORE global warming!

I wonder what all the "get rid of all carbon based power" nuts would do for power without the carbon fuels?  There is NO REPLACEMENT in sight, that will come anywhere replacing carbon power.

Our whole standard of living is based on carbon power.  Try to name ONE THING that does not have carbon based power somewhere in it, before it gets on the table in your house.

No, I would be happier if the gas company got their gas in a responsible way.

And I don't consider myself as a 'nut', thank you very much. I'm just asking that if you want to make your profits of the earth, that you do it in a responsible way. If you are picnicking in the forest you clean up when you leave right? If you are causing any damage, you pay for the damage right? So why wouldn't that be the same for the big companies?    

[dreamaker]

You got to be NUTS to be in the entertainment industry.

Interesting!!  My statement is based on my experience and not my opinion.

[CajunRider]

There wasn't a translation problem... I've been over-seas enough to to understand that you meant getting gas out of the ground (not pumping into a car).  I was only pointing out (as others later down also did) that the gas is worth money to the company ONLY because SOMEONE buys it.

So, is the company 100% at fault here?? Or is our current standard of living (and refusal to allow it to be reduced) also to blame??

Would you rather deal with an occasional earthquake, or live your entire life in the 1700's?

No, I would be happier if the gas company got their gas in a responsible way.

And I don't consider myself as a 'nut', thank you very much. I'm just asking that if you want to make your profits of the earth, that you do it in a responsible way. If you are picnicking in the forest you clean up when you leave right? If you are causing any damage, you pay for the damage right? So why wouldn't that be the same for the big companies?    

Who decides what a "responsible way" consists of? 

For me, responsible camping means don't litter and don't burn down the forest.
Others would say responsible means I can't hunt, kill, and BBQ that squirrel for supper. 
- Yes... I eat squirrel (You're welcome Daniel!  )

Who decides what damages require payment?

Is a footprint on the ground considered damage?
Is cutting down a tree for firewood considered damage?
Is BBQ'ing that squirrel considered damage?
Is burning down 50 acres of forest considered damage?

Now, let's play that same game with oil & gas production... at what point is "irresponsible" damage done??? 

This whole "blame the company for being evil" thing is MUCH more complicated than one would think.  It's easy to point a finger and say "It's their fault"... especially if they have lots of money so the media can make a frenzy out of it and the government can show how good they are by "making them pay". 

But is the easy answer the correct answer?
Or is the REAL problem much more ingrained into modern culture?

[F-six]

Again, I was only saying, that the case of drilling for gas in the Netherlands was about damage to other people because the gas company did not take proper measures to prevent the damage. The drilling caused earthquakes and the earthquakes made people losing their homes or got them severely damaged. And this case, I repeat, in this case, investigation showed that the gas company was at fault, which was recognized by the gas company and they are paying for damages.

This made me say, yes, it is possible that human activity can cause an earthquake. I did not say that the Oklahoma quake was caused by human activity, because I don't no this situation. But as a general warning I would say, you better look into it, because it is definitely possible that the quakes are caused by human activity. Why not investigate? Are you afraid for the answers?

I'm not a big game hunter for big companies. If there is something going on, investigate it and if someone is to blame for it let them pay. If you can't find a cause and have to conclude it all about nature, fine, I hope the people have a good enough insurance.
As for responsible for the environment, you didn't let BP of the hook when an oil rig in the Mexican gulf spilled oil for a couple of months or did you? That disaster was also caused by the desire of the oil company to save time and to cut costs. If my memorie serves me right BP had to pay the USA some 20 billion dollar in damages but the total amount of damages where even higher. So, don't tell me we are doing something wrong to let the gas company pay for our damages they caused.        

[Willow]

I'm going to stay away from sharing my opinion in one case, but in one I will express.

You folks are arguing with F-six for no good reason.

First off, whether it was or wasn't F-six has stated that the gas company (I assume natural gas) acknowledged that the quakes were their fault.  Bingo. Case closed.

As to whether the gas customers who encouraged the behavior of the gas company should also pay, I have one observation.  No matter where the judgement is pointed it's the customers who will pay, unless and only unless the company is driven out of business.  The corporate business has no money except what comes from its customers.  Everytime we, the public, go after corporations either through court judgements or taxes it is we, the customers, who pay.   

[Miker]

So if you have these voids underground because the liquids are removed and start collapsing, what would that feel like?

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure someone will), but sink holes are caused by the soil underground being removed, usually by an underground "river", when the roof fails. Not by the removal of the liquid. This would stop sink holes from happening.

Don't get wrong I am shooting from the hip on this, I agree with you on the explanation.  As we know liquids don't compress, so it supports what is above it, now when you remove it, you basically have a big hole with nothing supporting it,  with allot of pressure on it, what do you think over time will happen.

 Contrary to popular belief, the extraction of gas and oil doesn't leave a void in the ground. The oil and gas is entrained in porous rock, which usually fills with water as the gas and oil is taken out. Often, pressurized water is forced into one end of the formation in order to push the gas/oil out the other end (water flood).
Can't remember who said it but, yes, the difference in depth between formations being fracked and the water table is thousands of feet.

[Varmintmist]

Just a fun fact, the epicenter of the quake was in what the USGS calls a medium hazard earthquake zone. However since that is a inconvenient truth, feel free to blame fracking.