due to liberals, soon no a/c allowed or refrigerated food

[98valk]

except if your an UN globalist elitist.

http://time.com/4532377/climate-change-kigali-agreement-air-conditioners/

[dinosnake]

"Due to science, soon HFC's must be eliminated if we expect to have an ozone layer left"

There, fixed it to read the truth and be less recidivist for you.

We'll figure out a substitute, one that isn't damaging to the planet.  Because we all live here, not just the crotchety old people who complain about anything that they personally don't like 

[98valk]

"Due to science, soon HFC's must be eliminated if we expect to have an ozone layer left"

There, fixed it to read the truth and be less recidivist for you.

We'll figure out a substitute, one that isn't damaging to the planet.  Because we all live here, not just the crotchety old people who complain about anything that they personally don't like 

there is no damage to the ozone layer, no increase in the ozone hole. read/research the REAL science and not the politically motivated JUNK science on CNN that will destroy every bodies way of life.  The bible tells us in the end times there will be severe world wide inflation, a days wages for a loaf of bread, the climate junk science people will cause this. it is already happening now, are u aware? are u aware that vehicles since the late 1990s actually are cleaning the ambient atmosphere. the exhaust is cleaner than air going into the air cleaner. consumers are paying for this big time. are u aware that every vehicle on the road is wasting fuel just so the catalytic convertor will function for a couple of PPM cleaner exhaust which means nothing compared to the size of the planet or what one volcano puts out every day? suggest u read this book, if u dare. http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/greening.shtml

[baldo]

 

[Robert]

I'm not sure if this covers the replacements for r12 and r22 which is r134 and r410. I'm sure they want to do something about this but these are the newest refrigerants and supposedly will not hurt the environment. The article is not clear on which refrigerants they want to change.

I would say that most house systems have already been replaced if this is the case along with most autos in the US. Since between normal  replacement they have already died. Mine was replaced and it cost me some money since I had to replace the whole unit instead of replace the outside piece. But not really a big deal, kind of like the switch from r12 to r134 in cars. We used to use fluorinated gases in spray cans and this has been eliminated.

   My biggest problem with global warming is we are at war with every living thing on the planet since we and all life is the producers of CO2 and Methane. I also have a problem with this since it says that the burning of fossil fuels is the biggest problem. But in cars we have eliminated the emissions of methane and co2 is a natural by product of life yet we still see the emission levels rising according to those in the know. They have never demonstrated the catastrophic effects of more CO2 on the planet or if plants can actually compensate for the increase.

Below is right from the EPA website and the gases we are saying are greenhouse gases that we need to eliminate or reduce.
Right from the EPA website:


    Carbon dioxide (CO2): Carbon dioxide enters the atmosphere through burning fossil fuels (coal, natural gas, and oil), solid waste, trees and wood products, and also as a result of certain chemical reactions (e.g., manufacture of cement). Carbon dioxide is removed from the atmosphere (or "sequestered") when it is absorbed by plants as part of the biological carbon cycle.
    Methane (CH4): Methane is emitted during the production and transport of coal, natural gas, and oil. Methane emissions also result from livestock and other agricultural practices and by the decay of organic waste in municipal solid waste landfills.
    Nitrous oxide (N2O): Nitrous oxide is emitted during agricultural and industrial activities, as well as during combustion of fossil fuels and solid waste.
    Fluorinated gases: Hydrofluorocarbons, perfluorocarbons, sulfur hexafluoride, and nitrogen trifluoride are synthetic, powerful greenhouse gases that are emitted from a variety of industrial processes. Fluorinated gases are sometimes used as substitutes for stratospheric ozone-depleting substances (e.g., chlorofluorocarbons, hydrochlorofluorocarbons, and halons). These gases are typically emitted in smaller quantities, but because they are potent greenhouse gases, they are sometimes referred to as High Global Warming Potential gases ("High GWP gases").


From the article:

Total global HFC emissions—most commonly from air conditioners and refrigerators—are far less significant contributors to climate change than the aggregate emission of other greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide and methane. But HFCs are thousands of times more potent than carbon dioxide on a pound-per-pound basis, making them an obvious target for international efforts to combat climate change.

Methane is produced in environments with little or no oxygen by bacteria that feast on decomposing organic matter, such as grasses and wood. Almost half of the world's methane comes from natural sources such as wetlands, rivers and streams, gas hydrates on the ocean floor, and permafrost.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I'm not sure if this covers the replacements for r12 and r22 which is r134 and r410. I'm sure they want to do something about this but these are the newest refrigerants and supposedly will not hurt the environment. The article is not clear on which refrigerants they want to change.

I would say that most house systems have already been replaced if this is the case along with most autos in the US. Since between normal  replacement they have already died. Mine was replaced and it cost me some money since I had to replace the whole unit instead of replace the outside piece. But not really a big deal, kind of like the switch from r12 to r134 in cars. We used to use fluorinated gases in spray cans and this has been eliminated.

   My biggest problem with global warming is we are at war with every living thing on the planet since we and all life is the producers of CO2 and Methane. I also have a problem with this since it says that the burning of fossil fuels is the biggest problem. But in cars we have eliminated the emissions of methane and co2 is a natural by product of life yet we still see the emission levels rising according to those in the know. They have never demonstrated the catastrophic effects of more CO2 on the planet or if plants can actually compensate for the increase.

Below is right from the EPA website and the gases we are saying are greenhouse gases that we need to eliminate or reduce.
Right from the EPA website:


    Carbon dioxide (CO2): Carbon dioxide enters the atmosphere through burning fossil fuels (coal, natural gas, and oil), solid waste, trees and wood products, and also as a result of certain chemical reactions (e.g., manufacture of cement). Carbon dioxide is removed from the atmosphere (or "sequestered") when it is absorbed by plants as part of the biological carbon cycle.
    Methane (CH4): Methane is emitted during the production and transport of coal, natural gas, and oil. Methane emissions also result from livestock and other agricultural practices and by the decay of organic waste in municipal solid waste landfills.
    Nitrous oxide (N2O): Nitrous oxide is emitted during agricultural and industrial activities, as well as during combustion of fossil fuels and solid waste.
    Fluorinated gases: Hydrofluorocarbons, perfluorocarbons, sulfur hexafluoride, and nitrogen trifluoride are synthetic, powerful greenhouse gases that are emitted from a variety of industrial processes. Fluorinated gases are sometimes used as substitutes for stratospheric ozone-depleting substances (e.g., chlorofluorocarbons, hydrochlorofluorocarbons, and halons). These gases are typically emitted in smaller quantities, but because they are potent greenhouse gases, they are sometimes referred to as High Global Warming Potential gases ("High GWP gases").


From the article:

Total global HFC emissions—most commonly from air conditioners and refrigerators—are far less significant contributors to climate change than the aggregate emission of other greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide and methane. But HFCs are thousands of times more potent than carbon dioxide on a pound-per-pound basis, making them an obvious target for international efforts to combat climate change.

Methane is produced in environments with little or no oxygen by bacteria that feast on decomposing organic matter, such as grasses and wood. Almost half of the world's methane comes from natural sources such as wetlands, rivers and streams, gas hydrates on the ocean floor, and permafrost.

For CA it has nothing to do with refrigerants. It's all about his hatred for liberals. 

[Robert]

For CA it has nothing to do with refrigerants. It's all about his hatred for liberals. 

Did you ever hear the squeaky wheel gets the most oil? It seem liberals have been very vocal and aggressive in the language in letting their wishes be known. Which personally I have to disagree with many ideas they espouse. Some of these ideals have cost us dearly in our ideals, our countries form of government and even in our pocket books. Not all the ideas are bad and I dont think they are alone in pushing the agenda we see happening but they do get the blame and do seem to be very vocal.

Personally as a example I know some that pay 15k a year in health insurance and really want to know why liberals when confronted with the fact that this was done strictly for the good of minorities, was formed by lying and really criminally done and hurts both liberals and conservatives, why dont we see liberals being vocal about changing this. This is where I have a credibility issue with liberals, we all have ideas on how things should be run but it seems liberals once getting something and seeing its a pile of feces do absolutely nothing to amend or change it. I perceive their attitude as oh well some have to perish for my policies to be implemented. They will move on to the next issue and never ever consider how the implementation of a wrong policy has hurt so many people.

This is one reason I wont vote for Hillary,she will not even consider the destructive power of the policies she wants to implement on the average American. She could care less and if it doesn't fit in her idea of utopia, then your out. Obama has demonstrated this ability time and time again even to taking our taxes and using them to find loop holes in the laws and signing executive orders as implementation and backing them up with lawyers paid for by us.

If I had to provide a further easy example of this mind set I would look at the woman in Canada who stopped on a highway to save some ducks while killing a man and his wife on a motorcycle. I dont think she ever understood why a human life was worth more than a ducks and that she did the wrong thing.

The worship of ideals is over the caring for the needs and desires of the people, that is a liberal in my book.
 
Any other president may have been bad for the economy or been bad but we dont see the to hell with you attitude we have seen with the new thinking of this presidency.

If you want to call this liberal, new world order, left wing, communism or socialism its seems the name that fits the best is liberal. 

I think if you claim this name as your ideals then you claim all that comes with it. But I dont think on speaking with you in person anyone would think anything of being a liberal. We put a classification or name on ideas its easier that way for people to handle. Unfortunately I think liberal as a name has a P R problem these days.

[The emperor has no clothes]

For CA it has nothing to do with refrigerants. It's all about his hatred for liberals. 

Did you ever hear the squeaky wheel gets the most oil? It seem liberals have been very vocal and aggressive in the language in letting their wishes be known. Which personally I have to disagree with many ideas they espouse. Some of these ideals have cost us dearly in our ideals, our countries form of government and even in our pocket books. Not all the ideas are bad and I dont think they are alone in pushing the agenda we see happening but they do get the blame and do seem to be very vocal.

Personally as a example I know some that pay 15k a year in health insurance and really want to know why liberals when confronted with the fact that this was done strictly for the good of minorities, was formed by lying and really criminally done and hurts both liberals and conservatives, why dont we see liberals being vocal about changing this. This is where I have a credibility issue with liberals, we all have ideas on how things should be run but it seems liberals once getting something and seeing its a pile of feces do absolutely nothing to amend or change it. I perceive their attitude as oh well some have to perish for my policies to be implemented. They will move on to the next issue and never ever consider how the implementation of a wrong policy has hurt so many people.

This is one reason I wont vote for Hillary,she will not even consider the destructive power of the policies she wants to implement on the average American. She could care less and if it doesn't fit in her idea of utopia, then your out. Obama has demonstrated this ability time and time again even to taking our taxes and using them to find loop holes in the laws and signing executive orders as implementation and backing them up with lawyers paid for by us.

If I had to provide a further easy example of this mind set I would look at the woman in Canada who stopped on a highway to save some ducks while killing a man and his wife on a motorcycle. I dont think she ever understood why a human life was worth more than a ducks and that she did the wrong thing.

The worship of ideals is over the caring for the needs and desires of the people, that is a liberal in my book.
 
Any other president may have been bad for the economy or been bad but we dont see the to hell with you attitude we have seen with the new thinking of this presidency.

If you want to call this liberal, new world order, left wing, communism or socialism its seems the name that fits the best is liberal. 

I think if you claim this name as your ideals then you claim all that comes with it. But I dont think on speaking with you in person anyone would think anything of being a liberal. We put a classification or name on ideas its easier that way for people to handle. Unfortunately I think liberal as a name has a P R problem these days.

In that case, why try to couch it in liberals are taking away your refrigerator ? Just start up a post titled "I hate liberals". I'm sure you will get many responses, mostly reinforcing. 

[98valk]

I'm not sure if this covers the replacements for r12 and r22 which is r134 and r410. I'm sure they want to do something about this but these are the newest refrigerants and supposedly will not hurt the environment. The article is not clear on which refrigerants they want to change.

I would say that most house systems have already been replaced if this is the case along with most autos in the US. Since between normal  replacement they have already died. Mine was replaced and it cost me some money since I had to replace the whole unit instead of replace the outside piece. But not really a big deal, kind of like the switch from r12 to r134 in cars. We used to use fluorinated gases in spray cans and this has been eliminated.

   My biggest problem with global warming is we are at war with every living thing on the planet since we and all life is the producers of CO2 and Methane. I also have a problem with this since it says that the burning of fossil fuels is the biggest problem. But in cars we have eliminated the emissions of methane and co2 is a natural by product of life yet we still see the emission levels rising according to those in the know. They have never demonstrated the catastrophic effects of more CO2 on the planet or if plants can actually compensate for the increase.

Below is right from the EPA website and the gases we are saying are greenhouse gases that we need to eliminate or reduce.
Right from the EPA website:


    Carbon dioxide (CO2): Carbon dioxide enters the atmosphere through burning fossil fuels (coal, natural gas, and oil), solid waste, trees and wood products, and also as a result of certain chemical reactions (e.g., manufacture of cement). Carbon dioxide is removed from the atmosphere (or "sequestered") when it is absorbed by plants as part of the biological carbon cycle.
    Methane (CH4): Methane is emitted during the production and transport of coal, natural gas, and oil. Methane emissions also result from livestock and other agricultural practices and by the decay of organic waste in municipal solid waste landfills.
    Nitrous oxide (N2O): Nitrous oxide is emitted during agricultural and industrial activities, as well as during combustion of fossil fuels and solid waste.
    Fluorinated gases: Hydrofluorocarbons, perfluorocarbons, sulfur hexafluoride, and nitrogen trifluoride are synthetic, powerful greenhouse gases that are emitted from a variety of industrial processes. Fluorinated gases are sometimes used as substitutes for stratospheric ozone-depleting substances (e.g., chlorofluorocarbons, hydrochlorofluorocarbons, and halons). These gases are typically emitted in smaller quantities, but because they are potent greenhouse gases, they are sometimes referred to as High Global Warming Potential gases ("High GWP gases").


From the article:

Total global HFC emissions—most commonly from air conditioners and refrigerators—are far less significant contributors to climate change than the aggregate emission of other greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide and methane. But HFCs are thousands of times more potent than carbon dioxide on a pound-per-pound basis, making them an obvious target for international efforts to combat climate change.

Methane is produced in environments with little or no oxygen by bacteria that feast on decomposing organic matter, such as grasses and wood. Almost half of the world's methane comes from natural sources such as wetlands, rivers and streams, gas hydrates on the ocean floor, and permafrost.

For CA it has nothing to do with refrigerants. It's all about his hatred for liberals. 

WRONG, I don't hate anybody, especially since Jesus tells me not to hate anyone. Hate is such a strong word.
the liberal progressive agenda (progressive is code word for UN communist/marxist/socialist) that want to change The American WAY OF LIFE into their world govt control, and reduce our standard of living, this is what I don't like.

Robert, CFCs R12 is what they band, based on the lies about the ozone hole, and where replaced with the HRC, R134 etc., now they want to band them again based on the same ozone hole lie.
don't believe anything the EPA says lots of junk science. read the book I posted and u will see the beginning of the EPA, who answer to no one and controlled buy no one, all thanks to Nixon

[Pappy!]

Nothing to worry about here, folks!
Leftist California Governor, Jerry Brown, has taken the lead here and passed legislation in his state covering Cow Flatulence. That 'oughta do it.

[dinosnake]

Nothing to worry about here, folks!
Leftist California Governor, Jerry Brown, has taken the lead here and passed legislation in his state covering Cow Flatulence. That 'oughta do it.

Cow flatulence actually produces methane which is worth an 18% equivalent in CO2 emissions

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013/11/26/big-methane-burp-cows-refineries-spew-gas.html

http://gizmodo.com/do-cow-farts-actually-contribute-to-global-warming-1562144730

In the 1993 TV series Seaquest DSV, meat was actually banned due to meat animal's methane emissions; the environment had changed so much that they had 8 oxygen generators installed throughout the world to help rebalance the ecosystem.  They used meat substitute products instead; any meat available was only through black market sources.

So this is not new information, not by a long shot.  The question is whether or not we have the backbone to act on the information...which, right now in today's political climate (no pun intended), the answer is a resounding "No".  Possibly in 30 to 50 years...your children's or grandchildren's time...they'll be forced into decisions in order to clean up the mess that we're making and leaving for them.

[The emperor has no clothes]

That last sentence says it all.  "that we are leaving for them"

[scooperhsd]

If THAT's your problem -

The REAL solution is to institute GLOBAL POPULATION CONTROL  - ask the chinese how the people feel about being limited to 1 child per couple (except for twins and other multiple births) ? Or do something useful and invent faster-than-lightspeed space ships so we can start shipping humans off to other solar systems.

It's the growth of the human population that's putting the pressure on the planet - all the rest of that is trivial. and junk science.

[The emperor has no clothes]

If THAT's your problem -

The REAL solution is to institute GLOBAL POPULATION CONTROL  - ask the chinese how the people feel about being limited to 1 child per couple (except for twins and other multiple births) ? Or do something useful and invent faster-than-lightspeed space ships so we can start shipping humans off to other solar systems.

It's the growth of the human population that's putting the pressure on the planet - all the rest of that is trivial. and junk science.

Very simplistic answer. There are many things we can do and have done. Surely you don't want to return to the days of unlimited pollution ?

[scooperhsd]

If THAT's your problem -

The REAL solution is to institute GLOBAL POPULATION CONTROL  - ask the chinese how the people feel about being limited to 1 child per couple (except for twins and other multiple births) ? Or do something useful and invent faster-than-lightspeed space ships so we can start shipping humans off to other solar systems.

It's the growth of the human population that's putting the pressure on the planet - all the rest of that is trivial. and junk science.

Very simplistic answer. There are many things we can do and have done. Surely you don't want to return to the days of unlimited pollution ?

Depends - my  personal one is the EPA going too far on NOx pollutants for diesels. There's a few other things that the existing standards were "good enough" but they (and CARB) can't leave well enough alone. ( Yes I drive a 2015 Golf TDI - and a 2000 NB TDI).

[John Schmidt]

OK.....I just added to the methane mix. I feel much better! 

[The emperor has no clothes]

OK.....I just added to the methane mix. I feel much better! 

I hope no one ever measures my output. I'd put them cows to shame. 

[Robert]

OK.....I just added to the methane mix. I feel much better! 

I hope no one ever measures my output. I'd put them cows to shame. 

 
The last couple of days around here has been pretty bad also.   

[dinosnake]

If THAT's your problem -

The REAL solution is to institute GLOBAL POPULATION CONTROL  - ask the chinese how the people feel about being limited to 1 child per couple (except for twins and other multiple births) ? Or do something useful and invent faster-than-lightspeed space ships so we can start shipping humans off to other solar systems.

It's the growth of the human population that's putting the pressure on the planet - all the rest of that is trivial. and junk science.

Very simplistic answer. There are many things we can do and have done. Surely you don't want to return to the days of unlimited pollution ?

Depends - my  personal one is the EPA going too far on NOx pollutants for diesels. There's a few other things that the existing standards were "good enough" but they (and CARB) can't leave well enough alone. ( Yes I drive a 2015 Golf TDI - and a 2000 NB TDI).

Have been, or been paying attention, to China lately?  In their big cities, like Beijing, their air is so toxic, due to having no real air pollution standards and being lax with any enforcement, that they have days where people cannot leave their homes

http://time.com/4155365/china-red-alert-smog/

http://www.ibtimes.com/china-air-pollution-smog-red-alert-spurs-factory-closures-beijing-2234074

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-08-13/china-air-pollution-kills-4-000-people-a-day-researchers

http://sinosphere.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/03/01/documentary-on-air-pollution-in-china-grips-a-nation/

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=china+air+pollution

It's so easy to say "Big government is the problem!" but why don't you go live there, a place where the government isn't enforcing the rules and regulations that the greater-developed countries are, and see how green the grass really is (in this case, see how brown the grass really is)?

We whine all the time yet we are probably amongst the luckiest people on Earth: we have clean air, healthy water, safe food, warm beds, healthy children and luxury products that we own simply because we can and we want to.  Maybe we should count our blessings and thank all the systems that make this true, rather than whine about why the world isn't catering to us even more (actually having a responsibility to pay some portion of the costs associated with all that wonder)?

[scooperhsd]

I'm not saying the EPA and CARB were not necessary  - but merely that they are on a politcal agenda to make the ICE (internal combustion engine) unlawful , starting with diesel cars. At this point , do we REALLY need to go those extra steps ?

and China's problem is China's to figure out.  They have the example of our history to follow if they choose.

[Mobile Mayor]

Getting tired of this crap.  before r134 we had ammonia and r12.  I have even used propane as a heat exchange medium.  ( Yea I know, butt I amm a deplorable asshole:).   Wasn"t  going to damage anything too much important with redneck science.  Butt guess what?  It worked on an ancient farm tractor. (Yea I had a fire extinguisher)  We have carbon credits traded on a large scale between nations, so that China and other "emerging nations" can burn more coal and petroleum while established world powers sell themselves on the exchange.  Some good time back, I posted a question which was basically, why should we not keep our own resourses for the good of our own people.  Why are we selling our coal to places which have historically produced high emissions? I mean China, India, Japan.  When we have developed natural gas and petrol reseverves to a higher level than present,  we will be exporting them also, instead of using them to reestablish the us as a thriving economic power.  The present money powers that be want to see the us reduced to a cottage industry society while they reap the benefits of supporting emerging nations.   Rant over.  I'm just a unreconstructed, deplorable redneck who has had e-fn-nuff.                                                                                                                                                                     

[dinosnake]

I'm not saying the EPA and CARB were not necessary  - but merely that they are on a politcal agenda to make the ICE (internal combustion engine) unlawful , starting with diesel cars. At this point , do we REALLY need to go those extra steps ?

and China's problem is China's to figure out.  They have the example of our history to follow if they choose.

It's already happened: Germany has declared the ICE unlawful for the year 2030:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/news/a31097/german-government-votes-to-ban-internal-combustion-engines-by-2030/

So, yeah, it has begun.  But we began this several years ago, of our own free-market accord: Telsa.  Prius.  Volt.  And Zero.  We've begun embracing electric vehicles and the governments are taking their cues, pushing to get the technology developed in the same manner that they pushed cleaner ICE via clean air regulations.  EFI, catalysts, lead-free fuel, high-compression engines, turbocharging, variable displacement, V-TEC and more were responses to requirements to meet customer demands for performance and driveability while meeting regulations.

Again, we'll adapt and manage.  It's not like the ICE is the linchpin that holds humanity together, ya know.  We are creative enough to go past it and create something new sometimes - I'm just waiting for the space-time warp drive.  I'm hoping that the EMDrive pans out, it will FINALLY put us back into the stars where we belong!  I can't stand that we abandoned space so damn easily and casually.

[98valk]

I'm not saying the EPA and CARB were not necessary  - but merely that they are on a politcal agenda to make the ICE (internal combustion engine) unlawful , starting with diesel cars. At this point , do we REALLY need to go those extra steps ?

and China's problem is China's to figure out.  They have the example of our history to follow if they choose.

It's already happened: Germany has declared the ICE unlawful for the year 2030:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/news/a31097/german-government-votes-to-ban-internal-combustion-engines-by-2030/

So, yeah, it has begun.  But we began this several years ago, of our own free-market accord: Telsa.  Prius.  Volt.  And Zero.  We've begun embracing electric vehicles and the governments are taking their cues, pushing to get the technology developed in the same manner that they pushed cleaner ICE via clean air regulations.  EFI, catalysts, lead-free fuel, high-compression engines, turbocharging, variable displacement, V-TEC and more were responses to requirements to meet customer demands for performance and driveability while meeting regulations.

Again, we'll adapt and manage.  It's not like the ICE is the linchpin that holds humanity together, ya know.  We are creative enough to go past it and create something new sometimes - I'm just waiting for the space-time warp drive.  I'm hoping that the EMDrive pans out, it will FINALLY put us back into the stars where we belong!  I can't stand that we abandoned space so damn easily and casually.

our own Free market accord? WRONG.

Bill Clinton awarded 1.25 billion of our tax dollars for research and design of electric cars to the auto manufacturers. AND this is when regular gas was 60-80 cents per gallon. and Obama gave another 2.4 billion to the electric car industry and just recently another 4.5 billion of our tax dollars for charging stations.
(Environmental Protection Agency that reaffirmed regulations to drive more electric cars into the market, despite falling sales of the vehicles due to low gasoline prices.
 And u think THEY don't have a plan to control everybody? u think it is free markets? http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/white-house-pumps-4.5-billion-into-electric-car-charging-amid-sales-slump/article/2597329)
and then Americans have to spend their money again to buy something their tax dollars paid for.

And do you know the American Indians called the Los Angles valley "The Valley of Smoke"? Why?, because there has always been SMOG there naturally, same reason we have these mountains called the Smokey Mountains. but the global greenings tell us it is because of humans and something must be done.

[dinosnake]

Oh PLEASE.  Quick to repeat the propaganda, you completely fail to mention that your heroes, the oil industry that supports the existence of the ICE which received $72 billion between the years 2002-2008 alone, has received $369 billion total in the years 1950-2010

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidies

and...AND...after receiving all that PUBLIC MONEY, has the nerve, the NERVE, to use accounting tricks like the Double Irish to not pay any U.S. taxes.

Which many electric vehicle manufacturers pay in abundance, as they are too small to have the structure needed to take advantage of the criminality of the accounting tricks.

Of COURSE electric was given subsidies: with that much PUBLIC MONEY being spent on keeping the oil industry in business exactly how would any private enterprise, hoping to develop electric vehicles and support systems, ever hope to compete?

You want your pro-corporatist, neo-liberal right wing economic policies so that there are no subsidies to politically-liberal 'playthings', like electric vehicles?  Then stop throwing public funds at industries who make billions in profits without needing the subsidies AND can't even hold up to their civic tax responsibilities regardless.  I'll be happy to debate the incorrectness of the comparatively measly, $3.65 billion subsidy given to electric to help even their "free market" playing field when and if that is accomplished, no problem at all.

[DirtyDan]

The existence of ICE ???

Ok I'm confused

ICE in case of emergency  ?

ISIS ?

Or frozen water ?

Immigration customs ?

Dan

[The emperor has no clothes]

The existence of ICE ???

Ok I'm confused

ICE in case of emergency  ?

ISIS ?

Or frozen water ?

Immigration customs ?

Dan

Dan, I think they are talking about gasoline and Diesel engines. Personally I like ice with vodka and grapefruit juice. 

[98valk]

The existence of ICE ???

Ok I'm confused

ICE in case of emergency  ?

ISIS ?

Or frozen water ?

Immigration customs ?

Dan

he was that white rapper.


internal combustion engine