If you are pro choice...

[f6john]

you support the number one cause of child death in America. Over 500,000 a year.

[Simmy74]

Hey, wait-
Couldn't that have been a way to fill all the low end jobs nobody wants to do, advance society, and secure our future without having to bring in refugees and illegal immigrants?


And I'm suprised at the number and someone should look into that rape epidemic.  I mean, it's not like anyone would be apathetic enough to use abortion as on-demand birth control, right?

[G-Man]

I'm not in agreement, completely, with the original post.

Maybe indirectly.

I am pro-choice.  However, I really believe in responsible pro-choice.  Unfortunately, you can't legislate responsibility.

crap happens in life, no need to keep listing them, and a woman should be able to make up her own mind.  Her decision can be her own, or in consult with whomever she chooses, and nobody has the right to make any of those choices for her.

Unfortunately, like I said, you can't legislate responsibility and too many women in our country are not responsible enough to protect themselves from becoming pregnant in the first place so they use abortion as a form of birth control.  And, if you agree with pro-choice, you have to live with the choices of the irresponsible as well.  Sad. 

[The emperor has no clothes]

you support the number one cause of child death in America. Over 500,000 a year.

My wife and I have been in disagreement about this for decades. I don't really care to get into it here. But I will say that is your opinion. The law of the land was settled in Roe vs. Wade.

[Reb]

I'm not in agreement, completely, with the original post.

Maybe indirectly.

I am pro-choice.  However, I really believe in responsible pro-choice.  Unfortunately, you can't legislate responsibility.

crap happens in life, no need to keep listing them, and a woman should be able to make up her own mind.  Her decision can be her own, or in consult with whomever she chooses, and nobody has the right to make any of those choices for her.

Unfortunately, like I said, you can't legislate responsibility and too many women in our country are not responsible enough to protect themselves from becoming pregnant in the first place so they use abortion as a form of birth control.  And, if you agree with pro-choice, you have to live with the choices of the irresponsible as well.  Sad. 

G-man,

Couldn't agree with you more.

[Bigwolf]

I have posted this elsewhere and was not going to burden the VRCC board with it.  However, since you brought it up, here are the thoughts of an old man.  An old man that has learned he is not the all seeing and all knowing master of the universe.

Pro Life vs Pro Choice - not so simple for me

To me, this is a very complex issue.  

I believe it is a really bad thing to take a life.  To do so is certainly not something I want to support.  So that makes me pro life right?

Not so fast.  Maybe there are worse things than death.  Children that are unwanted often end up neglected at best or sometimes even murdered.  Some get adopted and have a good life.  Many go to foster care, have trouble adjusting and get passed around like a bag of trash until they are in jail or out of the foster care system.  Many get acquainted with jails before they become adults.  I have met some of these unwanted young people and know for fact that some of the things they do to survive are appalling.  It certainly is not living.  It is merely surviving.

Another thing to think about in making this decision is the reality.  Not our ideal idea of what life should be, but the reality of illegal abortions performed at home alone or in some filthy back room by some non medical helper.  Before the Roe vs Wade decision in 1973, abortions had been largely illegal since the early 1800s.  The unintended ugly result was that many women attempted to induce abortions by inserting knitting needles, crochet hooks, hair pins, scissors, coat hangers, chicken feathers and cotton balls into their uteruses.  Others tried the ingestion of things like gunpowder or whiskey to do the deed.  Underground abortion groups gathered in back rooms and unsuspected places.  The result was a very high maternal fatality rate.  Both mother and baby lost.

If we could solve the reality of unwanted, unloved and neglected children and the emotional and physical strain of women bearing children they did not want, well then yes, the abortion decision might be easy.  In fact, a legal decision would probably not then be needed.

So yes, I am personally pro life.  However, I do not believe I have the knowledge or the wisdom and I certainly do not have the inclination to insist that others do as I wish on this issue.  I believe only God has the wisdom to solve this abortion issue.  Maybe we should let Him.

[f6john]

    Whether in a well lit comfortable room or a back alley the baby is just as dead. I'm sure there are times when an abortion is necessary and the right thing to do. Wholesale abortion on demand is unconscionable to me. What is amazing to me is a woman can have a late term abortion and that is perfectly acceptable but if that same woman delivered the baby in a bathroom and then put the baby in the trash she can be charged with murder.

[Mr Whiskey]

I'm pro choice because...
I don't have the right to tell another what they can/can't do with their body.

I personally am pro life...
because I'll stand before God with the choices I've made.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I'm pro choice because...
I don't have the right to tell another what they can/can't do with their body.

I personally am pro life...
because I'll stand before God with the choices I've made.

That is a very good way of putting it. 

[Pete]

When is the beginning of life?
Birth
Conception
other

Sorry I cannot answer the question any better than others.

But I can answer this question.
Abortion after the beginning of life is some form of murder.

[The emperor has no clothes]

When is the beginning of life?
Birth
Conception
other

Sorry I cannot answer the question any better than others.

But I can answer this question.
Abortion after the beginning of life is some form of murder.

maybe, it's above my pay grade. I'm very thankful I've never had to struggle with the decision. I feel almost exactly as Whiskey spelled it out. I can't say with certainty what I would have done in my 20's faced with it.

[f6john]

    I only bring this up occasionally to keep it as close to the surface as possible. Everyone has to live with their choices and everyone will face judgement in the end. My grandsons who I introduced here a a week or so ago are representative of a potential abortion subject.
Here they are at 3 days old.




  Can you imagine intentionally ending their lives. I don't know how a mother or a medical professional could possibly do so.  I guess the oath to do no harm isn't taken very seriously. I don't intend to drag this out, but when I saw some recent numbers I had to vent.

[da prez]

   I do not believe in abortion as a birth control!

             But if your loved one was impregnated by rape and possible birth defects because of it ,
  then  , it should end.

        I have my own beliefs and do not try to change others . I do not preach religion ,but I do attend church on occasion.

                                                  da prez

[Mr Whiskey]

When is the beginning of life?
Birth
Conception
other

Sorry I cannot answer the question any better than others.

But I can answer this question.
Abortion after the beginning of life is some form of murder.

The moment of conception you are a unique & original creation, IMO.

[Jersey mike]

   I do not believe in abortion as a birth control!

             But if your loved one was impregnated by rape and possible birth defects because of it ,
  then  , it should end.

        I have my own beliefs and do not try to change others . I do not preach religion ,but I do attend church on occasion.

                                                  da prez

said very well

[Romeo]

I am personally pro life. I have very strong feelings about this subject and would be happy to discuss my feelings with any  of you at any time. Face to face. Not on a message board though. Way too much chance for misunderstanding or misspeaking.

[f6john]

   I do not believe in abortion as a birth control!

             But if your loved one was impregnated by rape and possible birth defects because of it ,
  then  , it should end.

        I have my own beliefs and do not try to change others . I do not preach religion ,but I do attend church on occasion.

                                                  da prez

     I do believe that Roe v Wade is being used as birth control and that is why the number is so high. I guess we need a bill of rights for the unborn. I do believe there are circumstances where abortions are necessary and that should be between the mother and her doctor, not some clinic whose only purpose is to peform abortions on demand.

[Valker]

Regardless of someone's  opinion on abortion, all Roe v Wade did was make an unconstitutional decree violating the 10th amendment. Each state already had abortion or not. If you lived in a non abortion state, all you had to do was travel a bit. The decision itself was a HUGE usurpation of power.

[art]

   I only bring this up occasionally to keep it as close to the surface as possible. Everyone has to live with their choices and everyone will face judgement in the end. My grandsons who I introduced here a a week or so ago are representative of a potential abortion subject.
Here they are at 3 days old.




  Can you imagine intentionally ending their lives. I don't know how a mother or a medical professional could possibly do so.  I guess the oath to do no harm isn't taken very seriously. I don't intend to drag this out, but when I saw some recent numbers I had to vent.

They look great, I'm happy for you and hope they are doing good. From another grandfather.

[f6john]

  Thanks Art, they are doing great. Form 2 lbs to over 16 lbs now. In case you missed an earlier thread, this is Ethan and Elias now.

[phideux]

I'm an Anti-Abortion, Pro-Choicer. I am personally against it myself, but do not force my beliefs on others. I do think it shouldn't be a publicly funded form of birth control, or a birth control method at all. All the other reasons?? not my call, not my choice.

[doubletee]

I'm not in agreement, completely, with the original post.

Maybe indirectly.

I am pro-choice.  However, I really believe in responsible pro-choice.  Unfortunately, you can't legislate responsibility.

crap happens in life, no need to keep listing them, and a woman should be able to make up her own mind.  Her decision can be her own, or in consult with whomever she chooses, and nobody has the right to make any of those choices for her.

Unfortunately, like I said, you can't legislate responsibility and too many women in our country are not responsible enough to protect themselves from becoming pregnant in the first place so they use abortion as a form of birth control.  And, if you agree with pro-choice, you have to live with the choices of the irresponsible as well.  Sad. 

Well said, G-Man. I'm in agreement.

[3fan4life]

Have you ever considered why the terms are Pro Choice and Pro Life?

Maybe it is because no one wants to be Pro Abortion or Anti Life.

Personally and as a Christian I am against abortion.

However, it is rarely a good idea to attempt to legislate morality.

Most people who are against abortion for moral  reasons will concede that there should be exemptions in cases of rape, incest and when the mother'said life is at stake.

There does need to be a time limit though.
Personally I think that line should be drawn at the point where the infant has a greater than 50% chance of surviving outside of the womb.

That's a debatable point.

What's not debatable is that there needs to be a reasonable time limit on when an abortion may be legally performed.

Partial birth abortion should not be legal under  any circumstances. This is a barbaric procedure that is purely murder.

How anyone with a conscience can be a party to it. I cannot understand.

Anyone watching the last debate should recall that Hillary would not even draw the line at partial birth abortion.
Even Bill was against that.

Even though you should not attempt to legislate morality.

For a Society to endure it must have some standard of what is right and what is wrong.

Otherwise it will descend into Anarchy.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Have you ever considered why the terms are Pro Choice and Pro Life?

Maybe it is because no one wants to be Pro Abortion or Anti Life.

Personally and as a Christian I am against abortion.

However, it is rarely a good idea to attempt to legislate morality.

Most people who are against abortion for moral  reasons will concede that there should be exemptions in cases of rape, incest and when the mother'said life is at stake.

There does need to be a time limit though.
Personally I think that line should be drawn at the point where the infant has a greater than 50% chance of surviving outside of the womb.

That's a debatable point.

What's not debatable is that there needs to be a reasonable time limit on when an abortion may be legally performed.

Partial birth abortion should not be legal under  any circumstances. This is a barbaric procedure that is purely murder.

How anyone with a conscience can be a party to it. I cannot understand.

Anyone watching the last debate should recall that Hillary would not even draw the line at partial birth abortion.
Even Bill was against that.

Even though you should not attempt to legislate morality.

For a Society to endure it must have some standard of what is right and what is wrong.

Otherwise it will descend into Anarchy.

Ok, I'm breaking my word and jumping in here. I hope it's taken the way it's meant. I hope we come to a point in our society that no abortions are ever needed or done. But I've heard this defense of "it's ok in the cases of rape, incest, and life of a mother". I've never understood the logic in that. If a person is morally against it because they feel it's taking a life, how do those things change anything ?

[Rams]

My position on this will not effect Roe V Wade in any way, shape or form but, I do have a question.

Why is it that I as the biological father of that embryo have no choice as to whether or not my mate carries that child from conception to birth?   The child or embryo is half my genetic make up.   Sorry, it's not my fault I can't carry the child for her.   Personally, I truly believe the father of that embryo should have some say in terminating that child's life just as I am responsible to rear and love that child during it's life.   We made it together, it should be a mutual decision.  I also realize that there is always the possibility that one parent may want the child and one may not, the mother has no options on the walking away from the child until after the birth of that child unless abortion is the chosen option.   But, if I as the father want that child, I think I should have some input that should be considered.

If the father drops out of the scenario, the situation is changed.   That is not to suggest I'm pro or anti anything.   Just that under our current laws, it's strictly left up to the mother's decision.   I personally disagree with that thought process.

[Willow]

I don't believe it's right to kill children at any age.  I'm not totally a single issue voter but there is one issue that will turn me away from any candidate.  If you're in favor of killing children you won't get my vote for anything from dog catcher to president.

I do hold to one exception.  I have a niece who experienced a tubal pregnancy.  Medical assessment was that neither the mother or infant would survive that situation so they aborted that pregnancy.  I have no problem with that decision.  I don't have a problem with measures that avoid a pregnancy before the embryo has attached.

As to whether one cannot legislate morality I disagree with some.  If we can't legislate morality what are laws against murder and rape about?  Actually criminal law in it's entirety is about requiring some level of moral behavior.

I'm opinionated.  I'm okay with that as I am usually correct.   

[3fan4life]

My position on this will not effect Roe V Wade in any way, shape or form but, I do have a question.

Why is it that I as the biological father of that embryo have no choice as to whether or not my mate carries that child from conception to birth?   The child or embryo is half my genetic make up.   Sorry, it's not my fault I can't carry the child for her.   Personally, I truly believe the father of that embryo should have some say in terminating that child's life just as I am responsible to rear and love that child during it's life.   We made it together, it should be a mutual decision.  I also realize that there is always the possibility that one parent may want the child and one may not, the mother has no options on the walking away from the child until after the birth of that child unless abortion is the chosen option.   But, if I as the father want that child, I think I should have some input that should be considered.

If the father drops out of the scenario, the situation is changed.   That is not to suggest I'm pro or anti anything.   Just that under our current laws, it's strictly left up to the mother's decision.   I personally disagree with that thought process.

If I recall correctly that was a direct result of Roe vs Wade.

Two interesting points:

1: Roe (not her real name BTY) is now an anti abortion advocate. She calls her involvement in the landmark case, "The worst mistake that she has ever made." Also she never followed through with terminating her pregnancy.

2: Most people who advocate for pro choice also support laws against prostitution. I have always found this ironic.
If a woman's body is hers to do as she wishes.
Then why is she not free to "rent" it out?

[The emperor has no clothes]

I don't believe it's right to kill children at any age.  I'm not totally a single issue voter but there is one issue that will turn me away from any candidate.  If you're in favor of killing children you won't get my vote for anything from dog catcher to president.

I do hold to one exception.  I have a niece who experienced a tubal pregnancy.  Medical assessment was that neither the mother or infant would survive that situation so they aborted that pregnancy.  I have no problem with that decision.  I don't have a problem with measures that avoid a pregnancy before the embryo has attached.

As to whether one cannot legislate morality I disagree with some.  If we can't legislate morality what are laws against murder and rape about?  Actually criminal law in it's entirety is about requiring some level of moral behavior.

I'm opinionated.  I'm okay with that as I am usually correct.   

That would be up for debate.

[Rams]

I'm opinionated.  I'm okay with that as I am usually correct.  

 
Some things are debatable.   This one, not so much.    

Edited:  Apparently, that all depends on one's perspective.

[Moonshot_1]

Take a swab, dab it in your mouth. From the cells deposited and the use of science, we can determine a specific individual from those cells. You. Know if the person is male or female, know eye color, blood type, know of any anomalies in their genetic code.

We can do this on an unborn person too. Take a swab from them and discover the same human traits, same human genetics. This from virtually the beginning of conception.

This isn’t faith, this isn’t religion. This is so standard that you can catch up on it on a single episode of CSI.

The point to all this is that the question must be asked, “At what point do we as a society begin to defend the rights of a person?” Should it not be as soon as we can determine the individual exists?

DNA, the biological standard of identity, would clearly, as a matter of science, establish that identity immediately after conception.

We realize that in the course of events we can be presented with terrible choices. Particularly when it comes to issues of birth and life at its most fragile time. So we do need some vehicle of law to allow us to overcome issues where there are simply no good or viable choices.

It would be my thought we could determine that by restricting and limiting abortions, and the conditions for legal pursuit of abortion, and provide a swift venue through our court system to defend the unborn individual’s, proven to exist by indisputable scientific evidence, Constitutional right to due process.

[G-Man]

As to whether one cannot legislate morality I disagree with some.  If we can't legislate morality what are laws against murder and rape about?  Actually criminal law in it's entirety is about requiring some level of moral behavior.

And the jails are still full murderers and rapists and plenty of criminals.  And those are the one's who got caught, in which the system worked.  There are also insane numbers of rapists and murderers and criminals who got away with it or were let go.

What kind of law could we enact that would make women think about protecting themselves against pregnancy before they have sex?  The thought of actually having to pay for and take full responsibility for the child or the termination of the pregnancy may hinder some, but we're too far away from personal responsibility at this point and Murphy Brown told women it's OK to have kids and be single.

[Mr Whiskey]

  Thanks Art, they are doing great. Form 2 lbs to over 16 lbs now. In case you missed an earlier thread, this is Ethan and Elias now.

Dude, 'at's a great pic

[baldo]

I'm opinionated.  I'm okay with that as I am usually correct.  

 
Some things are debatable.   This one, not so much.    

Edited:  Apparently, that all depends on one's perspective.

Got that right.....

[f6john]

Dude, 'at's a great pic
[/quote]


   My wife took that pic with her Iphone and it's the best picture we have of them since they were born. Not staged, just a click at the right moment, thanks for the comment.