Final drive part forgotten

[Gore]

Yet another final drive question.

I got a new drive from Pinwall and major excited to get back on the road. Got everything installed and headed out for a ride to see some Colorado fall colors. Way less lash with new gearing and LUBE ON THE DRIVE GEARS. Noticable difference.
Been riding for a week or so and noticed that I didn't put this part back on #20 on the HDLparts page
http://www.hdlparts.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=148291&category=MOTORCYCLES&make=HONDA&year=2003&fveh=3469

They call it collar B (kind of a flaired at one end pice of tube the axle fits through).

Dam, I've taken this thing apart now twice and it looks like again a 3rd time (thanks Daniel M for the demo/talk at Inzane 9) yet I wonder, how important is that piece anyway? Don't notice any difference? Can it wait?

Any opinions?

[9Ball]

can't wait to hear the replies to this one....

[Gore]

Trust me JR, I had to humble myself and, thought about the exact same thing you wrote.

[Black Dog]

You need that part.  Without it, I'm surprised things are working as well as you say...  That will take up about 3/4" of space, between the wheel, brake caliper holder, and the frame.

Did you torque the axle bolt to 81 lb/ft? 

I'd fix that ASAP.  Without it, your splines will not be fully meshed, or the wheel spline may pull away from the wheel...

Black Dog

[Mikey]

so does that part come off when you take off the wheel? I remember putting a spacer in, but it was only about 3/4" long. Is the HDL drawing just not to scale?

[sandy]

When you torque the axle, the force is spread across the wheel/final drive through the spacers and bearings. Without that spacer, lots of pressure is placed on castings and other parts that weren't meant for the pressure. Loosen the axle nut and don't ride anymore till you replace the spacer.

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

so does that part come off when you take off the wheel? I remember putting a spacer in, but it was only about 3/4" long. Is the HDL drawing just not to scale?

Your thinking of the spacer. This is a collar that the axle slides thru. Only comes out when disassembling the final drive I believe. Honda put it there for a reason. I'd get it back ASAP and consider myself fortunate.

[Black Dog]

Your thinking of the spacer. This is a collar that the axle slides thru.

Misunderstood is correct...  My Bad. 

I thought you ment the spacer, on the brake side.

Still, take it apart, and get it back in there!  You were lucky 

Black Dog

[DFragn]

so does that part come off when you take off the wheel? I remember putting a spacer in, but it was only about 3/4" long. Is the HDL drawing just not to scale?

The spacer it sounds like you recall is on the caliper side. The other 2.5" + or so spacer rests inside the drive splines in the differential. As mentioned, the axle passes through it.
No it does not always come off or fall off when you remove the axle and wheel. If it didn't it should be removed to inspect the drive hub splines and for easier lubing.

[Gore]

It all makes sense now.

When I reassembled it I overtightened the axle nut(Sandy). I thought strange, didn't happen first time. So I borrowed a torque wrench a did all the bolts accordingly (BlackDog) but wondered about the intitial overtightening.

I am lucky here. I'll put that collar in before the wheels ever roll on asphalt
Thanks for the input as always.
Being newer to this board I believe there isn't a thing that could be done or dreamed up without someone already having done it or atleast knowing about it.

[Daniel Meyer]

I would expect to crush the final drive case just torquing the axle nut without that part....

It normally doesn't come out of the final drive on wheel removal...are you sure it's not out of your old drive or something?

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

I would expect to crush the final drive case just torquing the axle nut without that part....

It normally doesn't come out of the final drive on wheel removal...are you sure it's not out of your old drive or something?

As Daniel said It shouldn't come out on wheel removal, so perhaps it's your old one. I thought he'd rebuilt the actual final.

[Gore]

Nope, I have two of them. One from the old and one from the new.
I remember taking it out of the new (used) and thinking, "don't forget to put this in Kev".

This task is relatively easy to do, once done, so 1st time I did it I put all the parts nice and organized as they came off. Second time around I was a little more cocky. Plus I gave the replacement drive a good once over and cleaning on the bench, not on the ground where the rear end was disassembled from the bike.

Here they sit, side by side, like a double-barreled reminder 

[Ricky-D]

It appears that that part is from the wheel, and is the spacer for the wheel bearings that resides inside the wheel hub between the two wheel bearings.

It is intended to absorb the force from torquing down on the axle nut rather that the bearing shoulders cast inside the hub.

Damage from not having this piece should be limited to the wheel bearing which are not designed to accept side loading.

***

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

It appears that that part is from the wheel, and is the spacer for the wheel bearings that resides inside the wheel hub between the two wheel bearings.

It is intended to absorb the force from torquing down on the axle nut rather that the bearing shoulders cast inside the hub.

Damage from not having this piece should be limited to the wheel bearing which are not designed to accept side loading.

***

I beg to differ Rick. Your talking about part # 7 here  http://www.hdlparts.com/fiche_image_popup.asp?fveh=3469&section=148290&year=2003&make=HONDA&category=MOTORCYCLES&dc=2291&name=REAR+WHEEL  2 different parts.

[Mikey]

This thread is making me want to go home, take the rear end apart, and make sure everything is kosher back there... I'm pretty sure that my splines are dry, so it was going to come apart in about 2 weeks anyways (i have another tank or two to run through it) I didn't want to have to lay the girl up before the snow flies, but it looks like i might have to!

[Daniel Meyer]

Nope, I have two of them. One from the old and one from the new.
I remember taking it out of the new (used) and thinking, "don't forget to put this in Kev".

This task is relatively easy to do, once done, so 1st time I did it I put all the parts nice and organized as they came off. Second time around I was a little more cocky. Plus I gave the replacement drive a good once over and cleaning on the bench, not on the ground where the rear end was disassembled from the bike.

Here they sit, side by side, like a double-barreled reminder 

Well good lord...don't ride it that way  ???

[mikeb]

put it back in it helps to pre load the bearings and could help keep them from spinning on the axle

[John Schmidt]

If you ever pull both wheels at the same time for a new set of rubber and happen to remove those internal spacers....don't get them mixed up. Reason....they are different lengths. Don't ask how I know this, but it became painfully apparent after having already installed one wheel and trying to get things to fit. One is shorter than the other but not by much so a quick glance will fool you. 

[Ricky-D]

It appears that that part is from the wheel, and is the spacer for the wheel bearings that resides inside the wheel hub between the two wheel bearings.

It is intended to absorb the force from torquing down on the axle nut rather that the bearing shoulders cast inside the hub.

Damage from not having this piece should be limited to the wheel bearing which are not designed to accept side loading.

***

I beg to differ Rick. Your talking about part # 7 here  http://www.hdlparts.com/fiche_image_popup.asp?fveh=3469&section=148290&year=2003&make=HONDA&category=MOTORCYCLES&dc=2291&name=REAR+WHEEL  2 different parts.

You are correct.

The part in question, the correct part is a spacer that essentially does the same function but, in the correct application, protects the bearings in the differential case. It (the spacer)takes the rear axle torque that is applied by tightening the axle nut.  The absence of the spacer will allow side loads against the bearings in the differential case. Another possible harm could arise through a loss of gear tooth clearance between the pinion gear and the rack and result in abnormal wear.  Although the torque force is placed upon the internal bearings in the differential, the bearings are limited from movement by shoulders in the differential case and with too much force the shoulder could deform or even crack away from the case itself although I think this highly unlikely.

I think the major harm would be to the bearings in the differential.

***

[Madmike]

"The part in question, the correct part is a spacer that essentially does the same function but, in the correct application, protects the bearings in the differential case. It (the spacer)takes the rear axle torque that is applied by tightening the axle nut."

Would "crush" be a better word than "torque" in this description???


"Another possible harm could arise through a loss of gear tooth clearance between the pinion gear and the rack and result in abnormal wear."

Crown??

[Madmike]

If you ever pull both wheels at the same time for a new set of rubber and happen to remove those internal spacers....don't get them mixed up. Reason....they are different lengths. Don't ask how I know this, but it became painfully apparent after having already installed one wheel and trying to get things to fit. One is shorter than the other but not by much so a quick glance will fool you. 

John.. How closely does the length of the two sleeves correspond to the measurement of the distance between the bearing seats (seat to seat) in the corresponding hub??  Specifically, if in this situation can a quick measurement with a vernier of the sleeve length and hubs allow you to determine the matching parts??