Carrying in Church

[F6Dave]

This was unusual.  In church on Christmas eve, the Pastor mentioned the recent Berlin terror attack in his sermon.  He then noted that ISIS had published a list of targeted churches this Christmas, and said he appreciated his concealed carrying members.  I guess it's a reminder of the times we live in.

[DirtyDan]

A police officer on the news last night....

"The only thing that stops a bad person with a gun is a good person with a gun"

Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it

Be prepared

Dan

[Serk]

[Robert]

Most have a designated person who is a carry or they have police in the service. A lot of pastors endorse their congregates to carry guns unofficially. Its a shame the US has to resort to this.

[Hooter]

Its really a shame it has come to this! Not safe in what should be the safest place to be is sad.

[Chrisj CMA]

I carry at church always. Our pastor carries and I know several others that do. I also know full well that most scenarios given an armed attacker in the church I would NOT draw my weapon. However, if everything was right to take a shot, I'd rather be ready.

[old2soon]

The Church has designated members of the Church that carry. I carry to my Church. It is truly sad that carrying to Church is necessary BUT that being said-I would Love to return home after Church Services. RIDE SAFE.

[Oss]

for as long as I can remember, the old men who were the camp survivors
would never sit in temple but would constantly be walking the perimeter of the room, looking out

armed?

 the question was not armed it was how many arms and what calibers

 

These men taught me a few things.............

Hope we never have to know what they know

[Serk]

These men taught me a few things.............

Hope we never have to know what they know

But on the flip side, I hope we never forget...

[solo1]

I haven't carried in church......yet.  It is totally against how I was brought up.  As an Elder I brought up the question at our meeting.  It seemed to 'wither on the vine"

The biggest problem is the abundance of targets. ( and the abundance of congregants who could get hit by a person who would try to stop the aggressor.)

An ideal situation is where everyone ducks but the maniac and the 'stopper' has a rifle to be sure of his shot.

IMO, no good answers.  Real world.

[98 T]

As is happened, for the first time ever, I carried in church Christmas Eve.  Before this, I've always left my carry piece in the car during the service, even when I usher.  It always seemed odd to bring in in during a service.

 But that Isis warning for this week about large churches being targets got me thinking about how soft and easy a target a large church is (we have about 2,000 members).

However, that being said,  I agree with  Jeff and Wayne... in a crowded church full of innocent people,  it's not an easy decision.   Better to have it and maybe have to wait for the right opportunity to SAFELY  do some good with a conceal carry gun than to not have it at all and desperately need it.

Our church has no "official policy" one way or the other but I've mentioned it to a couple of the Pastors and they indicated they are aware of "Several members who carry".

One of my pastors was a nuclear ordinance officer on a submarine....it's entirely possible he is packing under his robe?

Bottom line - there is no easy answer.  And the bad guys are trying new techniques to kill people......  big knives, driving a truck through a crowd.   It's not just always a lone wolf with a gun.

Stay safe and be aware of what's happening around....

[Willow]

...
However, that being said,  I agree with  Jeff and Wayne... in a crowded church full of innocent people,  it's not an easy decision.   Better to have it and maybe have to wait for the right opportunity to SAFELY  do some good with a conceal carry gun than to not have it at all and desperately need it.
...

I'm not  certain that makes logical sense to me.   I was having a discussion on that subject with my pastor.  He explained how he was against carrying in the congregation because innocent people might accidentally get hit.  This was right after the church shootings in Texas.  I was trying to process that when a bad guy is intentionally killing people like shooting fish in a barrel that someone is concerned for whether an innocent would be accidentally shot by someone aiming for the shooter.  I thought it was beyond stupid.   

[Jess from VA]

In a church, in a theater, in a restaurant, in a parking lot, in your home with people around.

Deciding if and how you would shoot an aggressor is the same exercise of good judgment, sound knowledge of your weapon, and good marksmanship no matter where you are.

If necessary, get up and move (or crawl) to a position where you can get a good safe shot (generally straight at the aggressor or to his side), and take it.   If they are using machine guns mowing everyone down, take the shots you have.

It's not rocket science, but it does take some skill and thought, and steady nerves.

You'll be all excited afterwards, be very careful of what you say, or say nothing.  In a good clean self defense shoot, you'd think everyone would be on your side.  And you'd be wrong.  

[bscrive]

Although, if the perp has a bomb strapped to himself/herself, it would be a moot point to carry in church.  I would think this would be a more likely scenario.  They would want to bring the building down as well.

[Alpha Dog]

Herman Cain had a fill in guest last week, can not remember his name although I do think his last name was Cain also and from Jacksonville.  He devoted over an hour to this whole subject.  Guest after guest called in that carried in their respective church.  Some even said how their church will  place carry people at strategic points, and always some members near the entrance and practice for such an awful scenario.  They will pay special attention to unknowns who enter.  Some of these churches put a lot of effort together to protect the flock.  First it is a dang shame it has come to this but this is the current world and thus it seems to me to be a most prudent program.

[Atl-Jerry]

Sometimes I'm reminded of Chris Kyle's line from that movie, some of us are sheep, some of us are the sheep dog and I think those who carry are the sheep dogs.  It would be unatural to sit and wait until the bad guy is standing over you and you have a clean shot.  Most, if not all, would advance on the target and eliminate the threat.  At least I hope I would if ever faced with that scenario.

[solo1]

I was trying to process that when a bad guy is intentionally killing people like shooting fish in a barrel that someone is concerned for whether an innocent would be accidentally shot by someone aiming for the shooter.  I thought it was beyond stupid.  
QUOTE by Willow

Carl, i can only speak for myself. If I were to try to stop someone and I hit one of my church member friends, no matter if i did the "Right thing". I would have to live with that the rest of my life.

That thought based on the over rated accuracy at over 10 yards or so of a hand gun, especially under stress, is something to think about.

For me, if I decide to carry, I would have to think about only protecting myself at close distances, less than 10 feet.  Get outta Dodge would be the best thing, not try to stop.

Now if I could carry my Hipoint carbine that would be different because of the better accuracy.

[fudgie]

I do and so do a few other guys. The preacher is pro gun and carries also. He mentioned to get a shoulder holster during service.

I was asked by him to be a doorman along with another guy at a Ind for Israel conference since I carried. I would have done it but we were going to Iowa for the weekend.

[Willow]

I was trying to process that when a bad guy is intentionally killing people like shooting fish in a barrel that someone is concerned for whether an innocent would be accidentally shot by someone aiming for the shooter.  I thought it was beyond stupid.  
QUOTE by Willow

Carl, i can only speak for myself. If I were to try to stop someone and I hit one of my church member friends, no matter if i did the "Right thing". I would have to live with that the rest of my life.

That thought based on the over rated accuracy at over 10 yards or so of a hand gun, especially under stress, is something to think about.

For me, if I decide to carry, I would have to think about only protecting myself at close distances, less than 10 feet.  Get outta Dodge would be the best thing, not try to stop.

Now if I could carry my Hipoint carbine that would be different because of the better accuracy.

I do understand the concern, Wayne, but if three of your close friends were killed by the cad guy while you didn't or couldn't try to stop him wouldn't that be hard to live with as well?

[da prez]

  My personal belief is to try to take out the shooter. Yes , if I shoot a friend , I may also be saving a hundred others. It is a hard decision. Shooters have been known to execute people who are hiding or protecting their family. I would rather go down fighting rather than praying for some help. Someone else praying, is praying for my accuracy and help.

                                                    J U S T   M Y   T W O  C E N T S

                                                          da prez             

[solo1]

Yes, I thought of that too, Carl.

Quite honestly, if I were put in that situation, and if I was carrying a more accurate and powerful pistol like my Sig 40 instead of my .380,  I would try to assess, stand my ground, and try to stop the threat.
A head shot or pelvis shot are the only two hits that would stop a terrorists immediately. 

I have a realistic opinion about my pistol skills. I've never had the training needed to react to high stress conditions. I tend to think that the majority of pistol armed citizens are similar.  Training for a situation like this is expensive, dedicated, and requires physical ability beyond my 88 years.

Sorta like what Harry Hurt said many years ago.  "You tell me what kind of accident that you'll have and I'll make you the right helmet "    ................Tell me what kind of shooting or knifing incident that you will have and I'll tell you what kind of weapon to use.

[old2soon]

Granted THIS is Only my thoughts on the subject at hand. I'm flirting with 72 years on this orb we call Home. In a shooting scenario in My Church and I am carrying I would hope and PRAY that even if I did Not take out the hostile that by exposing myself and armed that myself acting as a distraction would give another Church Member that is armed a clear shot to cancel the turds ticket-PERMANTLY. Our Church has a LOT of young folks and a bunch of families just getting started. THEY deserve a chance to live as long-or preferably longer than I have. This terrible situation I'm sure No One here has asked for-It HAS been forced upon us by the devils minions. I do NOT see this situation getting better any time soon.    Again-I M H O-Anyone looking to kill folks in Church Really NEEDS to be dispatched soonest. RIDE SAFE.

[Chrisj CMA]

Yes, I thought of that too, Carl.

Quite honestly, if I were put in that situation, and if I was carrying a more accurate and powerful pistol like my Sig 40 instead of my .380,  I would try to assess, stand my ground, and try to stop the threat.
A head shot or pelvis shot are the only two hits that would stop a terrorists immediately. 

I have a realistic opinion about my pistol skills. I've never had the training needed to react to high stress conditions. I tend to think that the majority of pistol armed citizens are similar.  Training for a situation like this is expensive, dedicated, and requires physical ability beyond my 88 years.

Sorta like what Harry Hurt said many years ago.  "You tell me what kind of accident that you'll have and I'll make you the right helmet "    ................Tell me what kind of shooting or knifing incident that you will have and I'll tell you what kind of weapon to use.

Solo1. Having the training to react may or may not enable one to successfully neutralize a threat with a handgun.  I have had very good hostage take down training and close quarters instinctive fire classes.  I feel sometimes being trained like this gives one the wisdom to know when to shoot and when to use another tactic.  I don't imagine I would do nothing just because I didn't think it prudent to try and use my .357.

[MarkT]

In a church, in a theater, in a restaurant, in a parking lot, in your home with people around.

Deciding if and how you would shoot an aggressor is the same exercise of good judgment, sound knowledge of your weapon, and good marksmanship no matter where you are.

If necessary, get up and move (or crawl) to a position where you can get a good safe shot (generally straight at the aggressor or to his side), and take it.   If they are using machine guns mowing everyone down, take the shots you have.

It's not rocket science, but it does take some skill and thought, and steady nerves.

You'll be all excited afterwards, be very careful of what you say, or say nothing.  In a good clean self defense shoot, you'd think everyone would be on your side.  And you'd be wrong.  

 

Exactly.  Do all you can to maximize accuracy and keep cool under pressure. Practice.  Put a green laser on your weapon (they are brighter than red) especially Crimson Trace which require only tightening your grip to activate - no extra switch.  Move to a better aim point if you can and there's time (the shooter isn't already killing).  Practice scenarios at the range.  Take urban combat classes. Personally I think a laser-aimed .357 is optimal for taking out the perp with one shot but collateral damage is likely due to it's power.  Try for a backstop shooting position. And/or use JHP 38's for less penetration.

[Jess from VA]

Here's a thought process.  

When deciding at that moment whether to draw and engage or wait, begin to move to your best shooting position slowly attracting no/little/unthreatening attention, and never produce/show your weapon at all, until just before you use it (if you do).  You may or may not be able to get to a shooting position decent enough to even attempt a shot. (short of a full charge)

If you do and will shoot, as you produce the weapon, if you really need a better shot, say hey buddy (not yelling, just a calm speaking voice like you have a question for him), which will almost certainly cause him to turn full frontal, then shoot him center mass, before he does.  Twice if you're on the money.

If there are others, you are now engaged.

I mean, this is if there is a real need to shoot.  If one or more bad guys are robbing (or something) and going about their business and not hurting anyone, it is best not to initiate a public gunfight.  You shoot to save lives, not to put a bad man down.  

[Gryphon Rider]

The church was established in a century where persecution was the norm, especially under Nero.  Yet no NT author recommends putting swordsmen in strategic positions.  Was this because persecution was "official", rather than by individual non-sanctioned terrorists?

Romans 8:35-37 ESV - Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

[Serk]

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

--Luke 22:36

I'm not even a Christian, but I really like the wisdom from your Christ sometimes...

[Chrisj CMA]

The church was established in a century where persecution was the norm, especially under Nero.  Yet no NT author recommends putting swordsmen in strategic positions.  Was this because persecution was "official", rather than by individual non-sanctioned terrorists?

Romans 8:35-37 ESV - Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

Protecting ones self and loved ones is not new. I believe it's my God givin right to do so and nothing I have read in scripture tells me otherwise. Hopefully now that we have a president that is not anti gun, we will be able to carry on base soon too.

[Jess from VA]

Scripture can provide very good advice about all things in life, but sometimes there are contradictions and/or varying interpretations.  

But if you have one or more Muhammadans intent on slaughter of all Christians at your church (or elsewhere), I would tend to go with the version of scripture aimed at self preservation and not turning the other cheek.

Psalm 144:1
Of David. Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle;

Psalm 82:4
Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

Proverbs 24:11
Rescue those who are being taken away to death; hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter.

Joel 3:10
Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning hooks into spears; let the weak say, “I am a warrior.”  

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

And, Exodus 21:24-25
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Turning the other cheek to these fellows seems to constitute the mortal sin of suicide.  And then there's all the innocents beside and behind you, and at all the other churches.

[Gavin_Sons]

I carry everywhere all the time except obvious locations where it is illegal.  My grandmas funneral was a few weeks ago and even carried to that. It is rare if I dont have a gun on me. It's like a wallet, put your pants on, wallet in back left pocket, gun on right hip.

[Serk]

I carry everywhere all the time except obvious locations where it is illegal.  My grandmas funneral was a few weeks ago and even carried to that. It is rare if I dont have a gun on me. It's like a wallet, put your pants on, wallet in back left pocket, gun on right hip.

Same... I got in the habit of carrying ALL the time, even at home. It takes a conscious decision to disarm, my default is to be armed.

(And I avoid going places I need to disarm if at all possible.)

[Chrisj CMA]

I carry everywhere all the time except obvious locations where it is illegal.  My grandmas funneral was a few weeks ago and even carried to that. It is rare if I dont have a gun on me. It's like a wallet, put your pants on, wallet in back left pocket, gun on right hip.

Same... I got in the habit of carrying ALL the time, even at home. It takes a conscious decision to disarm, my default is to be armed.

(And I avoid going places I need to disarm if at all possible.)

Yep Seek, that's how we are.  When Judy and I got our carry cards she asked me "when should we carry". After thinking on it some I answered that's the wrong question.  The question should be when shouldn't we!

For us it boils down to federal property, like the base.  That still gives me a pain I cannot locate but hopefully it will change soon.

[Farside]

Yep, I had this conversation with my pastor after the Charleston church shooting. Asked him his thoughts about carrying in the church and he thanked me but assured me we have plenty packing during our services. He started naming our members carrying and I felt really good I must admit. I have my permit but honestly don't carry like I feel I should. Mostly because being in Medical sales hospitals are off limits.   
 

[jim@98valkyrie.com]

Things, they are a changin'........ not always for the better. Carrying everywhere it is possible is what I consider basic responsibility these days. Church is no exception. My wife questioned it the first time....
Just my thoughts......

[old2soon]

Again-MY thoughts. WHY would anyone want to be a "target of opportunity"? When folks Finally come to the realization that there ARE evil people in this world that DO wish us harm and/or death No MATTER where we may be can we even begin to address the problem. We were in Texas-da prez his wife and I when we heard the news about possible attacks on Churches on Christmas Eve. While it may sound trite the Motto-Always be prepared-springs to mind. One of W E B Griffins characters summed it up-you never really need a gun til you really need a gun. Some one already stated better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.  The devils minions have already proven time and again that there are NO Limits on the atrocities they are willing to commit. Keep THAT in mind the next time you head out the door. Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson are ALWAYS close at hand. RIDE SAFE.