Water to carbs

[Leathel]

OK so a couple of weeks back I went to fit the Fuel shutoff valve.... but discovered I had the wrong size fittings

So I did grab some of the right bits and fitted some new fuel line while I was in there.... got it back together and the fuel rail is now leaking, while looking for the leek I discovered my bike has water pipes connected to the bottom of the carbs near the drain hoses.... Is that common?

This is a British import to NZ made in USA.

There is no need for them here in NZ so I will remove them but I am interested if its common to have them.

I just need to see if the fuel line gaskets are in stock in NZ or if I have to see if I can find some that will do the trick if they are not in stock as I have a race track day on the bike in 7 days 

[The emperor has no clothes]

Water pipes ? Is this Kiwispeak ? Just kidding, I've never heard of such a thing.

[Leathel]

Water pipes ? Is this Kiwispeak ? Just kidding, I've never heard of such a thing.

My Honda manual doesn't have them mentioned or pictured..... So I figured they are not std

I remember some older cars used to use coolant through the carbs to aid with cold temp running but they used to hinder hot engine performance so were always bypassed... its not cold enough to warrant it

[Harryc]

Can you post a picture of a set of the water pipes?

[mark81]

a lot of newer vehicles have engine coolant lines through the throttle body too. never seen or heard of it on a valk here in the states or anywhere else for that matter

[Hook#3287]

I discovered my bike has water pipes connected to the bottom of the carbs near the drain hoses.... Is that common?

Nope

[Leathel]

Can you post a picture of a set of the water pipes?

all going well I will pull the carbs tonight... will take some more pics then as with the air box out it will show where they run too but here is a couple of pics



and with water flowing out

[Gavin_Sons]

That is not right at all. Does the bike run ok?

[Hook#3287]

What's that plug about?

[Hook#3287]

Some type of carb cooling/heating system?

But, why?

[Leathel]

Some type of carb cooling/heating system?

But, why?

It used to be common on old cars, in cold temps the bike will run smoother.....flip side is it costs power when hot!


It must be a British thing??

Its going to be bypassed tonight/tomorrow

[Leathel]

That is not right at all. Does the bike run ok?

Runs fine ....but seamed to have less power when hot....makes sense now.... Its going!

that pipe loops through all of the carbs.

[Hook#3287]

Some type of carb cooling/heating system?

But, why?

It used to be common on old cars, in cold temps the bike will run smoother.....flip side is it costs power when hot!


It must be a British thing??

Its going to be bypassed tonight/tomorrow

Those crazy Brits!

I can see it on an older carbed car, but I've found my bikes love the cold and run excellent.  If your talking less than 40F, then we're staying home anyways.

Good luck pulling that stuff off, hope it goes ok.

[Savago]

Is this some add-on/previous owner customization or did the UK bikes came from factory with this?

[Harryc]

Wow, just wow ...

[Leathel]

Is this some add-on/previous owner customization or did the UK bikes came from factory with this?

Looks factory.

[gordonv]

Is this coolant for the carbs (anti freeze) to reduce their temp. Or is this water injection into the carb/cylinder, like what they have on airplane to increase their HP?

[Leathel]

Is this coolant for the carbs (anti freeze) to reduce their temp. Or is this water injection into the carb/cylinder, like what they have on airplane to increase their HP?

It would be to increase the temp on cold days....but that would be for very low temps....you know around freezing temps...... the ones you don't ride in

[Hook#3287]

Is this some add-on/previous owner customization or did the UK bikes came from factory with this?

Looks factory.

I don't think so.  Those spring clamps are nothing I've ever seen on a Honda OEM.  And that plugged switch(?) or whatever it is, if it's part of it, is definitely not Honda.

And the black knob with the white collar is something someone added.

[98valk]

Is this some add-on/previous owner customization or did the UK bikes came from factory with this?

Looks factory.

I don't think so.  Those spring clamps are nothing I've ever seen on a Honda OEM.  And that plugged switch(?) or whatever it is, if it's part of it, is definitely not Honda.

And the black knob with the white collar is something someone added.

plugged switch is OEM for certain over seas bikes. Throttle Position Sensor for ignition module.

[Itinifni]

Looks like it has a throttle position sensor.
I understand this is unfamiliar for our bikes but the whole think looks factory to me.
Look at the mounting screw for the sensor, it appears to have a paint mark typically done on an assembly line.
The clamps on the coolant lines as well as the hoses themselves appear to be consistent from carb to carb, not the typical home mechanic install. Not to mention it wouldn't be easy to retrofit a stock carb with the passages.
I also see what appears to be the idle speed adjustment is accessible at the rear of the carb brace.

I wonder if this is some sore of kit factory or aftermarket, that was offered for cold weather operation.

I'm more interested in what the TPS is wired to. Throttle position switches were initially used in early electronic carbs to provide fuel shut off at higher engine speed closed throttle situations and at engine shut off. Throttle position sensors are used with fuel injection.

I wouldn't simply disconnect/plug the hoses until you know just what's going on with those carbs.
Post up some more pictures once you get the carbs out.

[Avanti]

plugged switch is OEM for certain over seas bikes. Throttle Position Sensor for ignition module.
[/quote]
That PCM would be interesting to study for possible Fuel Injection.

[Hook#3287]

Is this some add-on/previous owner customization or did the UK bikes came from factory with this?

Looks factory.

I don't think so.  Those spring clamps are nothing I've ever seen on a Honda OEM.  And that plugged switch(?) or whatever it is, if it's part of it, is definitely not Honda.

And the black knob with the white collar is something someone added.

plugged switch is OEM for certain over seas bikes. Throttle Position Sensor for ignition module.

Crap, glad we don't got that.

I was basing my opinion of that TPS on what looks like a Torx bolt.  Honda rarely uses those.  I can think of only 1 on the Valk behind the key switch.  Most uses are in the calipers on other Honda's.

[Leathel]

yes the plug is a TPS... what, why and how I am not sure and yes it has the security torques (with the pin in the middle)

and yes the black knob is the idle adjust, real easy to adjust

[Firefight100]

Before the use of FI, Car mfg's used carbs that were electronic.  Think back the the mid '70's.   They worked by raising and lowering a needle into the main fuel circuit many times a second.  By varying how many times this was done, they could control the fuel to air mixture. 
One thing this system required though was an O2 sensor.  I would suspect this bike has one.  Was probably needed to meet emissions in the UK at the time.

[Hook#3287]

plugged switch is OEM for certain over seas bikes. Throttle Position Sensor for ignition module.

Well, did a search and it seems that plug is OEM, although it fooled me.  I've don't remember seeing a round plug in the past.  My experience is, on Valks, their rectangular.  That and the Torx bolt.  Must be a factory add on for the European market.  Maybe Honda reached into her auto grab bag for the parts.

But what about the carb cooling/heating system?

It looks professionally done, but, anyone have any experience with it?

I have to agree, it would be a job too mod the carbs, but if OEM, has anyone heard about it before?

Is any of this listed in any Honda OEM parts sellers web-sites?

Interesting.

I also agree with the advice, it would be prudent to understand the system, before trying to remove it.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I wish I could provide a link to the Euro VRCC, but can't seem to find any current ones. Maybe on Facebook if you do that. This is very interesting. I thought I had seen everything Valkyrie related. Maybe a PM or email to Dag in Norway. Seems weird that Honda would see a need for carb warmers in Europe. Sure am interested to find out the rest of the story.

[Itinifni]

While the coolant warmed carbs are interesting I'm more curious about the TPS.

As far as I know the usual Valk timing map is simple, timing is based solely on engine RPM (after the engine reaches operating temp). Adding a TPS input to the ICM indicates the advance is modified based on engine load. The question is what does the advance curve look like on one of these bikes.

[Firefight100]

Found this also...European and Australian models have a throttle position sensor (TPS). Swiss and US models do not.
From here...http://www.valkyrienorway.com/MODEL%20DIFFERENCES.html

I did some more research on this.  Seems there were a lot of articles about installing heat shields under the carbs to prevent carb cooking at slow speed.  I think maybe the water thru the carbs is to prevent carb cooking and boiling of the fuel bowls and not for heating the carb.  I wouldn't remove it. If anything, put a valve inline and just shut it off.

[Savago]

I wonder if it would work to replace it all for a carbs bank from a US model? Would it require to change the ignition module?

[Leathel]

Found this also...European and Australian models have a throttle position sensor (TPS). Swiss and US models do not.
From here...http://www.valkyrienorway.com/MODEL%20DIFFERENCES.html

I did some more research on this.  Seems there were a lot of articles about installing heat shields under the carbs to prevent carb cooking at slow speed.  I think maybe the water thru the carbs is to prevent carb cooking and boiling of the fuel bowls and not for heating the carb.  I wouldn't remove it. If anything, put a valve inline and just shut it off.

I cant see how water operating in the hottest part of the engine is going to cool something out in the open breeze the the only heat sauce it rising heat waves that would get blown away while moving which will be less than the temp of the water...

I dont sit in traffic where I am from so I cant see it ever getting hot enough to be cooled by 100 deg C water

[Leathel]

I wonder if it would work to replace it all for a carbs bank from a US model? Would it require to change the ignition module?

$$$$$$ I don't have, I will just be bypassing it

the TPS I see as a bonus as in theory it will advance the timing to suit the throttle not the revs...

[oldsmokey]

1500 wings had coolant lines.

[98valk]

1500 wings had coolant lines.

just the intake manifolds not the carbs with temp sensors sending signal to ICM.

[Leathel]

Well its factory, pipes are on this page

https://www.bike-parts-honda.com/pieces-honda-detail-2269-13MZ0V41-GL1500CW-1998-E__2001-F6C+1500.html

and going by the numbers of bikes the "Heater" part is listed for its not that uncommon in Europe

https://www.bike-parts-honda.com/microfiches-recherche_piece-16136-MY5-600.html

[Leathel]

Some bits that wont go back on

[Harryc]

Well, I learned something new today. Thanks for the great pics.

[Hook#3287]

Well, I learned something new today. Thanks for the great pics.

Yeah, me too.  

It's amazing it took 18 years before someone posted pictures of that.

Those spring clamps look much easier to work with than the ones Honda used on most hoses.  Looks like they'd work better also.

So the coolant hoses are for heating the carbs, but why?  

Emissions, performance, both?

Obviously, they don't make any difference at startup, and England isn't exactly known for being a cold climate, so it must be emissions.

Also, HEY HONDA, how come we gotta burn our hands adjusting the idle, they don't have too in England!!


Found this, but don't know if it will work.
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/honda/HP-16029-MAS-600.html

[Hook#3287]

Looking at the parts web site Leathel posted, I found the "Winkers" and the "Handle Pipe"    but can not find the page "Tubing"

Does that mean the UK models did not have any "Tubing"?

Hey Leathel, does your bike have any of this?

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Motorcycle/1999/GL1500CT+A/TUBING/parts.html

[Leathel]

Looking at the parts web site Leathel posted, I found the "Winkers" and the "Handle Pipe"    but can not find the page "Tubing"

Does that mean the UK models did not have any "Tubing"?

Hey Leathel, does your bike have any of this?

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Motorcycle/1999/GL1500CT+A/TUBING/parts.html

I used to up until a couple of weeks ago

Desmog done, Pringel and fuel shutoff should go in this weekend all going to plan after doing the carbs