So I'm in the shower, and...

[Jess from VA]

not getting much hot water.  I generally only use warm and not hot, it dries me out.  But this was  different, so I reach down and open the hot a lot (I have tremendous pressure), and I hear a small boom.

Crap, that's not good.  Jump out, run to the basement, and a large puddle is forming under the heater.

Oh, goody.......plumbing issues.  Please just poke me in the eye with a sharp stick, which is better than plumbing.

AO Smith 40 gal, supposed to be the best there was, 15 years ago. (vent open, cold input off, gas off, pissed off)

Draining now, outside.  (no basement floor drain)

If it's not one thing....... it's another.   (Roseann  Roseannadanna)  

[The emperor has no clothes]

Whew ! I was a little worried this was going to be like a Stanley Steamer video or something. IMHO 15 years out of a water heater is pretty good. At least around here with our water.

[Jess from VA]

For years my plumber was one of my best friends, but he moved away.

Last one I called cost me a first born. 

[BobB]

Water heaters will last much longer if you replace the anode rod every 3 to 5 years.  This you can do yourself.  I replaced my own water heater years ago but will not do it again.  A plumber will no doubt enter my home for the first time in 28 years...

[da prez]

  A N D , drain the sediment at least annually. The concrete (what it seems like) build up in the bottom causes it to overheat as the temp sensor is up high.   We have a cabin in Northern Wisconsin that I tried to replace the anode rod. Could not budge it. The heater date code is 1975. The toilet is 1974.

                                             da prez

                                 

[wiggydotcom]

And sadly, Jess...the cost of a new water heater will give you sticker shock. A decent gas one in the 40 gallon range will run over 400 bucks. And that's not even for AO Smith or State.

I usually put them in myself. Although I always sweat the copper pipe for a clean look, you can buy
flex lines that make the install much easier.

[Jess from VA]

Thanks guys.  I'm not doing it myself, and will pay it done.

All it takes is a wheelbarrow of money.

I know AO Smith, never heard of State.

Our water is not particularly hard.

I use such little hot water living alone.  I wash my small amount of dishes cold (no gourmet cook), soak the rare casserole/cookwear with Dawn and water and later it all comes off.  Never used a dishwasher in my life, except to store pans.  It takes so long for hot to get to the kitchen, my usual 4-5 dishes is clean before hot water could even arrive at the kitchen sink.  I do maybe 2-3 loads of laundry a month.  A warm shower for 3-4 minutes every day (or every other).  I'll fill a bucket with hot to wash the car or bike once in a while.  And that's it.  Clearly keeping 40 gallons hot is my biggest year round gas expense, though gas heat in winter.

I know they have these instant flash heaters (had them in Turkey where if you got the sequence wrong, you could blow it off the wall), but hear they are expensive.  I use such little hot water, and I don't know if an extra expensive upgrade is really worth it.  Gas bill in winter is $80-90, in summer maybe $28-33 (most of that is water heater).  

(Electric dryer new out of the USAF in '92, and it's still going strong.  If it ever died I'd get gas, the line is right there.)

Should I get a flash heater or just replace the 40 gal?  (I could easily live with a smaller tank, based on my individual use; maybe 25? I'm not looking to save money on the install, but maybe real savings over time with energy use?), and I am not planning to sell, but clearly a family moving in would want no less than a 40 gallon tank.)

Any thoughts or advice appreciated.

[Hook#3287]

I've lived in my house for 27 years.  The original propane 10 year 50gal HWH I installed lasted just about 7 years due to the very hard well water, even with a water softener.  Didn't even bother asking about warranty.

I replaced it with a tankless one and it's been heating water since.

There's a learning curve, but as long as you got water, gas and electricity, it will run for ever.

Probably just jinxed myself.

[Robert]

Talk to your gas company sometimes they offer a deal on gas appliances. I did and it saved me about 150 to 200 over store bought. As for tankless many say they are good but with alot of flow on the water it may not be the best choice since they rely on water temp rise and flow rate. If not in the 3 gpm then usually you will run out, 3 gpm on hot only may be ok.

[Serk]

Ya' know what they say...

...a man's house is his hassle!

[Jess from VA]

Talk to your gas company sometimes they offer a deal on gas appliances. I did and it saved me about 150 to 200 over store bought. As for tankless many say they are good but with alot of flow on the water it may not be the best choice since they rely on water temp rise and flow rate. If not in the 3 gpm then usually you will run out, 3 gpm on hot only may be ok.

Thank you Robert.  Can you explain this simpler to me please?  Besides talking to the gas co.

EDIT: OK I just did some quick reading.  I do not think I would be using more than one hot water use at a time.  Kitchen sink (rare), shower, shave, washer.  I only run three washer loads a month max, and it would be no problem to lay off any other use while washing.  That's all I can think of.

[scooperhsd]

Well Jess - If you had 240V running the old water heater,  I can replace mine in about 4 hours, and biggest part of that is draining the old one / buying the new /hauling off the old one to the dump . If you use that little hotwater - I'd certainly consider it.

Dealing with the kitchen delay issue - There's 2 possibilities.
1. Put in one of those recirculating water pumps.
2. Put in a small electric Point of use tankless water heater in the kitchen. This is what I did -took my hotwater waiting time from 60-90 seconds down to under 10 seconds. I got an EEMAX EX9500T that has a thermostat and it can accept a hotwater input. However, that takes a 50 amp 240V circuit  on it's own.

[Jess from VA]

I don't care about hot water in the kitchen.  I had it turned off for 2-3 years, until lately when I had to have a plumber in to rip out my disposal and stick in a new faucet set.  He asked me to leave it on so the valves don't dry out or corrode and the line stays clean.  It's on, but I still don't use it, almost ever.

I have a gas water heater now.  I would use a gas tankless, I think. 

[JimmyG]

When I built my little house  3 years ago, I decided on gas tankless. Everyone said,"oh no, they are to much trouble".  So that's what I got. absolutely love it so far. I do a PM cleaning every 3 0r 4 months, which is simple, and enjoy endless hot showers now for the first time in my life. 

[cookiedough]

i also have a tankless gas water heater now about 5 years running.  Was more than 2xs the cost, but is suppose to last near 3xs longer than a conventional 40-50 gallon tanked water heater made nowadays. say 25 years vs. 7-9 years on the crappy tanked water heaters they make now NOT to last 15+ years anymore.    Gas savings for a family of 4 is guessing 15-20 bucks tops saved per month. 

ONLY issue is every few years you should run a solution of vinegar and water with hoses in a 5 gallon bucket with a small pump to circulate the vinegar solution thru the fins of the unit inside to remove debris/rust/particles for about 1 hour.

So far, so good, but we have a smaller unit and the hot water does go down some in temps if showering and doing laundry at the same time needing hot water for both.  So, either get a bigger unit but if 1-2 people,  you can get by with a smaller unit just do not do 2 things needing hot water at once is all. 

You do get a small energy credit off your taxes with a tankless water heater and possibly an energy savings refund with your local gas company - check on that as well, to help offset the cost of a tankless water heater.

However, if you know going to live only say 7-9 more years in your home, I would go with a tanked gas water heater.  But, if knowing going to live in your home say 13-15+ years or more, I would go tankless IMO.

[hubcapsc]

I aim to get a plastic one next time around...

http://www.rheem.com/product/residential-electric-water-heaters-marathon

-Mike

[Hook#3287]

It's been 20 years, so l don't remember exactly, but I think I paid around $1000.00 for my tankless.

If I lived in an area with piped natural gas, it would be a no brainer, as it is I own my own propane tank, so I didn't have to make any fuel feed upgrades.

I'm not going to try to figure it out, but 20 years of not having 50gal of hot water sitting there has got to be worth something.

Not to mention my tankless has lasted 3x longer than my first heater.

I live alone, so volume is not an issue.  Times when I've had company, never had an issue.

The only issue I've had, and I've done zero maintenance, is a wire connection  corroded and I had to replace it.

She stopped working, I figured I got my money's worth and was looking around for a new one.  Decided to look closer and saw the connection was toast, fixed it and alls good.

[wiggydotcom]

Ya' know what they say...

...a man's house is his hassle!

And, do you know how you can tell a guy's a homeowner?  He's always leaving the hardware store.

[Serk]

Ya' know what they say...

...a man's house is his hassle!

And, do you know how you can tell a guy's a homeowner?  He's always leaving the hardware store.

They know me on a first name basis at the local Home Depot... 

[Robert]

Tankless hot water systems run on heating the water as it comes in. So no tank to store hot water, the trade off is the rate the water goes through the system and how hot it will get. So if you increase the flow the water temp goes down, sometimes to an unacceptable temp, because the heater does not have sufficient time to heat the water. Most newer tankless systems are pretty good and the flow rate is up there. That doesn't happen in a hot water tank because the water is stored 40 gallons say and when that 40 gals is up you get cold water till it heats. Now the usual standard is 3 gallons per minute, and you said your water pressure is very good and you like hot full pressure showers. You may have a problem with this if the tankless cannot deliver the full flow rate of the shower. Most heads are limited to 3 gpm and you can always turn down the volume of water and the water will heat up fine. That is the trade off, flow vs temp.

If you select a tankless system look at flow rate usually gpm, rise time and temp.

I only said ask your gas company because sometimes to keep you a loyal customer they offer gas appliances at a discount. If you upgrade to a more efficient gas appliance they may offer some  kind of additional discount.

This is an example of the specs that you are looking for
Hot Water Capacity (77°F rise)  3.9 gpm for a smaller unit  4.9 gpm for a bigger unit

That means if your inlet water temp is 60 degrees and you flow 3.9 gpm that would mean the water could come out at 137 degrees.

Also using hot water is not usually at full hot its usually a mix of hot and cold so it would mean that the flow through a 3 gpm head would be roughly 1.5 gpm of hot water and 1.5 gpm cold water.

If its only one person using the hot water it should be fine but if 2 people want to take a shower, then the water flow would be higher and the temp would go down.

Natural gas has a bit lower btu rating than propane and almost the same as electric.

To go tankless it may be a higher install cost since there will have to be some rewiring and maybe even a larger gas line in or a exhaust vent change. A regular water heater is a fairly straight forward in out procedure.

[JimmyG]

One other thing to consider is more than one tankless heater. Say one for most stuff and smaller unit for bathroom only.

[Jess from VA]

Done deal.  New AO Smith 40 gallon gas.  With new (spendy) EPA rules, the new one is notably bigger (AND more expensive) than the one replaced (insulation).  The old one was a '94 install, so no complaints on 22-3yr longevity.  

Tankless just presented too many problems, including a question of whether my gas line even carried enough pressure.  Years ago, I had a small underground leak, and rather than dig up the whole yard and maybe tear off my (new) ground-mount deck, the old galvanized pipe was just sleeved with a flexible line from the main on the street to the meter in the house.  Then I would need a new vent line with a hole in my basement block wall.  And wall mount was hard to come by (space wise), and meant every gas, electric and water line would have to be completely replumbed.  Because the new tank was bigger, a few minor plumbing changes were needed, but job done under 3 hours.  The guy also told me the tankless should be serviced with vinegar every six months, and wanted a service contract.  Plus, not twice as expensive, with all the extra labor to install, more like 4 times as expensive.  

So I just stuck with what I know.  Hot water is back.  $1400, same for all three outfits I called.

Thanks to everyone who responded.  

Oh, and some extra fun, in all the in and out the basement walkout work (door held open), I now have a nice little mouse running around the house.  My install guys said there was no extra charge for that. 

If it's not one thing, it's another.  

Researching traps and techniques, and off to the store tomorrow.  Thought about the 12 gauge, but that would hurt my ears (and the furniture).  Hey Moe......

[Robert]

A little peanut butter in the end and it works like a dream


http://www.homedepot.com/p/Victor-Electronic-Rat-Trap-M240/100400789

[The emperor has no clothes]

Done deal.  New AO Smith 40 gallon gas.  With new (spendy) EPA rules, the new one is notably bigger (AND more expensive) than the one replaced (insulation).  The old one was a '94 install, so no complaints on 22-3yr longevity.  

Tankless just presented too many problems, including a question of whether my gas line even carried enough pressure.  Years ago, I had a small underground leak, and rather than dig up the whole yard and maybe tear off my (new) ground-mount deck, the old galvanized pipe was just sleeved with a flexible line from the main on the street to the meter in the house.  Then I would need a new vent line with a hole in my basement block wall.  And wall mount was hard to come by (space wise), and meant every gas, electric and water line would have to be completely replumbed.  Because the new tank was bigger, a few minor plumbing changes were needed, but job done under 3 hours.  The guy also told me the tankless should be serviced with vinegar every six months, and wanted a service contract.  Plus, not twice as expensive, with all the extra labor to install, more like 4 times as expensive.  

So I just stuck with what I know.  Hot water is back.  $1400, same for all three outfits I called.

Thanks to everyone who responded.  

Oh, and some extra fun, in all the in and out the basement walkout work (door held open), I now have a nice little mouse running around the house.  My install guys said there was no extra charge for that. 

If it's not one thing, it's another.  

Researching traps and techniques, and off to the store tomorrow.  Thought about the 12 gauge, but that would hurt my ears (and the furniture).  Hey Moe......

Reminds me of a story right after I moved here from Alaska. A guy I worked with blasted 3 holes in his floor. Evidently a Mojave Green had got in and he freaked out. He was known to drink pretty heavily though. 

[cookiedough]

that 40 gallon tanked water heater will be fine.  Just do NOT expect over 20 years like you got on the first one.  NO matter what mfg.,  I have talked to several plumbers when I went tankless for around 2400 bucks total (I think?) and all said lucky to get 10 years out of any tanked water heater made nowadays before leaking due to the think metal tank used nowadays NOT made like they were even in the 90s as my old one was in 1993 I think was State brand (A.O. smith is other main brand I think.)

I think though 1400 installed is a tad bit too much IMO for a tanked water heater considering am sure you had already the plumbing from old unit ready to do.  I think when I got a quote it was closer to 1 grand installed for a tanked and over 2 grand for my tankless unit.

[DirtyDan]

Done deal.  New AO Smith 40 gallon gas.  With new (spendy) EPA rules, the new one is notably bigger (AND more expensive) than the one replaced (insulation).  The old one was a '94 install, so no complaints on 22-3yr longevity.  

Tankless just presented too many problems, including a question of whether my gas line even carried enough pressure.  Years ago, I had a small underground leak, and rather than dig up the whole yard and maybe tear off my (new) ground-mount deck, the old galvanized pipe was just sleeved with a flexible line from the main on the street to the meter in the house.  Then I would need a new vent line with a hole in my basement block wall.  And wall mount was hard to come by (space wise), and meant every gas, electric and water line would have to be completely replumbed.  Because the new tank was bigger, a few minor plumbing changes were needed, but job done under 3 hours.  The guy also told me the tankless should be serviced with vinegar every six months, and wanted a service contract.  Plus, not twice as expensive, with all the extra labor to install, more like 4 times as expensive.  

So I just stuck with what I know.  Hot water is back.  $1400, same for all three outfits I called.

Thanks to everyone who responded.  

Oh, and some extra fun, in all the in and out the basement walkout work (door held open), I now have a nice little mouse running around the house.  My install guys said there was no extra charge for that. 

If it's not one thing, it's another.  

Researching traps and techniques, and off to the store tomorrow.  Thought about the 12 gauge, but that would hurt my ears (and the furniture).  Hey Moe......

Reminds me of a story right after I moved here from Alaska. A guy I worked with blasted 3 holes in his floor. Evidently a Mojave Green had got in and he freaked out. He was known to drink pretty heavily though. 

Hockey stick. My first choice for a snake.

Heard bad things about those Mohave greens. One thing that can STAY on the bucket list

Dan

[Jess from VA]

I think though 1400 installed is a tad bit too much

You and me both.  The commercial grade Proline unit sells for around $700 (maybe a bit less), so the two guys split the other $700 for 2.5 hours work (though I'm sure the co gets a cut).  So they made about $140 an hour.  Nice deal, if you can get it.  I was happy to call, and have them here with everything they needed in under an hour (their shop is maybe 2 miles from me).  And they were all business and knew what they were doing (which is no automatic around these parts).  My next best showtime was next Monday.

Move into any highly populated wealthy urban center ($4 billion annual county budget), and watch service prices double from the real world (and house prices triple or worse).

Three quotes were all very close.  The fix is in. 

[SpidyJ]

After two failures of conventional heaters I invested in  an 80 gallon Marathon.  Guaranteed for life with warranty transferable to whoever buys my place.  A rebate from the power compmany sealed the deal.
It does look like a big rocket booster sitting in my garage though.

[Jess Tolbirt]

there is no such thing as a hot water heater,, think about it..

[Willow]

there is no such thing as a hot water heater,, think about it..

LOL!  My thoughts have gone there also, Jess, but if you lay your hand on the outside of the tank you will discover that it is indeed a hot, water heater.   

[Serk]

there is no such thing as a hot water heater,, think about it..

I've often thought and said the same thing, but upon further introspection if you think about it, "hot" is a variable, and not an exact number, so it is possible to heat hot water; for instance if you have 100 degree Fahrenheit "hot" water and you wish to bring it to 150 degree Fahrenheit hot water, you would indeed need to heat hot water and thus would need the services of a hot water heater.

Or something like that.

[DirtyDan]

there is no such thing as a hot water heater,, think about it..

Giggle

Dan

[The emperor has no clothes]

there is no such thing as a hot water heater,, think about it..

I've often thought and said the same thing, but upon further introspection if you think about it, "hot" is a variable, and not an exact number, so it is possible to heat hot water; for instance if you have 100 degree Fahrenheit "hot" water and you wish to bring it to 150 degree Fahrenheit hot water, you would indeed need to heat hot water and thus would need the services of a hot water heater.

Or something like that.

there is no such thing as a hot water heater,, think about it..

LOL!  My thoughts have gone there also, Jess, but if you lay your hand on the outside of the tank you will discover that it is indeed a hot, water heater.   

You guys think too much. There is something to be said for being an idiot such as myself. 

[Robert]

Hot water doesn't stay hot unless its heated and kept hot. 

[The emperor has no clothes]

Hot water doesn't stay hot unless its heated and kept hot. 

It does here.  Cold water is like gold.