Rider Killed After Being Rammed During Police Chase…Was It Justified?

[Robert]

So whats your opinion?


http://www.bikebandit.com/blog/post/rider-killed-after-being-rammed-during-chase-was-it-justified?roi=echo3-43670688669-42008512-3fb18ec90c9a3af1660037c7b4d48231&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=BBNews&utm_source=Sun_043017_BBNews&utm_content=rider_killed_during_police_chase

Last week, a South Carolina rider was killed after being rammed while fleeing from deputies for a speeding violation. The Sheriff’s department says the ramming was accidental, but many are blaming the officer and even policy of chasing motorcyclists itself for the tragedy. Learn the full story here, and let us know what you think

[GiG]

So whats your opinion?

Sheriff's department says the ramming was accidental...

There you go  

There is no justification

[Valkorado]

Tap, tap, bump.  Oops.   

[Gryphon Rider]

For most of the chase the officer was at a reasonable distance.  For the last 30 seconds it's like he had enough and didn't care about the danger he was to the motorcyclist.  No justification.

[Reb]

I'll let Jim Carrey answer this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbOtyWTRZ_g

[Psychotic Bovine]

Do stupid things, win stupid prizes.

[specialdose]

  

   So according to the story he ran repeated traffic lights. Coming through one of those intersections was you wife and grandchild, just been to a movie. She hits him. loses control, slams into a truck and they are killed. As Garey said, STOP BREAKING THE LAW ASSHOLE.....
JMHO......Based on what I am reading. I see guys on bikes riding like TOTAL idiots all the time.

[old2soon]

Yes-I AM Monday mornin quarter backin. First thought and even after reconsidering that first thought the rider was stupid beyond belief. I have no idea zackly How long the chase was but we had video for 5 and a half + minutes. The L E O-I M H O-was also wrong. He-the L E O-got THAT Close maybe he should have gotten a tag number and tracked him down later? I do NOT believe the rider should have paid with his life but he did. That stupid prizes thing. I was Taught a LONG time ago to NOT attempt to outrun the L E Os. Bad juju happens. Someone else mentioned that Maybe the L E O had reached his frustration limit. How long had the L E O been on duty before the chase? A tox screen of the deceased rider and the L E O Might prove interesting. Sorry that rider died but in a way he brought it upon himself. And the L E O is NOT without fault either. Simple really-fine and jail time beats being planted from stupidity. If that goes to trial I KNOW what my vote would be-90% the riders fault 10% the L E Os fault. RIDE SAFE.

[dreamaker]

When you start that bike and turn that throttle you have a responsibility to people around you. Rules are made to protect yourself and the people around us.  He chose to crank that throttle and set his own destiny.

[Dave Ritsema]

Was the guy speeding in the wrong? Of course. Did he deserve to die due to the irresponsible actions of that police officer? No.

[Gavin_Sons]

Was the guy speeding in the wrong? Of course. Did he deserve to die due to the irresponsible actions of that police officer? No.

of course he did not deserve to die, but sometimes when you play stupid games you win stupid prizes. Life is full of choices and he chose to be a dumbass. Dumbassness has consequences. 

[Jess from VA]

Officer gave him plenty of time and chances to stop.  This is certainly felony fleeing and eluding (by the time of the tap).

Rider is risking other people's lives and limbs (for quite a while, and a lot of red lights), until he is stopped.  He was given a break (he could have been knocked off his bike numerous times much sooner).  

Finally gave him a small tap (or two) to bring him to a stop.  Doesn't look accidental at all to me (not after he followed him so safely and carefully from farther back during most of the chase).  Looks very calculated, and fairly minimal contact (minimal use of force to stop the ongoing crime).  I do not see intent to kill in this calculated tap (or reckless, willful, use of deadly force), I see intent to stop.

But if saying it was accidental is good for the cop and the dept, then say it was accidental (probably a good idea).  Now if the cop would have run him over or smashed him into a building, that would have been excessive.

There are times maybe when pursuit should be stopped.  But I don't think that should ever be the default position.  And I don't think this was one of them.  Midnight, minimal pedestrians, low traffic, no schools, not residential.

This guy was not much of a rider.  One trick pony straight ahead with speed.  It looked like was thinking about turning a few times, but just kept it straight and level with a few curves.  C- is my grade.  And an E for judgment. 

[bassin]

If he would have stopped none of this would have ever happened !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Moonshot_1]

Have very little problem with the cause and outcome. After the biker ran the first red light at 100+ mph the officer should have bumped him at the first opportunity.  To think what would have been if the idiot ran into someone. It was obvious he didn't care about his life.

It's real easy to Monday morning QB the officer. We know a lot more now than he possibly could have then. He didn't know if the bike was stolen, if he just committed some kind of felony or what could possibly justify the riders intent to flee is such a reckless manner.

The solution was real simple. Pull over and take the speeding ticket he deserved.

[da prez]

  The rider is at fault. He had plenty of time to stop. He chose not to.                     

                                         da prez

[oldsmokey]

From drivers - ed. What do you do when an emergency vehicle approaches from either direction?
Everybody has twisted it a little too much (or a lot) at one time or another. Most of the time you get away with it and smile . Sometimes times you don't and then you pay$$$ to play May never know why that course of action was chosen, a story to brag about? just the thrill? past history? A night in jail and a morning conference with the judge would have been wiser.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I'm surprised how many here think it was justified. 

[Gavin_Sons]

I'm surprised how many here think it was justified. 

Q: What happens when you run from police?
A: They chase you.
Q: what happens when you don't stop?
A: they continue to chase you.
Q: what happens after several miles of being chased by police?
A: they run your ass over before you hurt innocent people.

Are you still surprised?

[Psychotic Bovine]

If the motorcyclist was a gunman instead, and he was shooting at, but intentionally missing people, what should be done?  Lethal force?  Let him expend his ammo so he's no longer a threat?  Leave, and let him continue? 
A vehicle can be a weapon.  He made a choice to run, he paid the price.  It's a tough world, sometimes.

[RP#62]

I'm surprised how many here think it was justified. 

I didn't read where anybody said they thought it was justified, only that once he elected to run, he made the bad outcome a possibility.

-RP

[The emperor has no clothes]

I'm surprised how many here think it was justified. 

Q: What happens when you run from police?
A: They chase you.
Q: what happens when you don't stop?
A: they continue to chase you.
Q: what happens after several miles of being chased by police?
A: they run your ass over before you hurt innocent people.

Are you still surprised?

I believe most police depts. nowadays have policies that back off the chase if it's deemed a danger. Evidently this one didn't or they didn't follow it. It seems quite obvious the cop got tired of following him and decided to put him to the ground. He probably didn't mean to kill him. But it would seem he should have known that was a big possibility. I agree the guy shouldn't have run from the cops. It wasn't very smart. Seems they surely had the license plate # of the guy. Wouldn't it have been wiser to back off and get him later ?

I'm surprised how many here think it was justified. 

I didn't read where anybody said they thought it was justified, only that once he elected to run, he made the bad outcome a possibility.

-RP

Maybe I misunderstood . I thought a lot of the responses were affirmative that the cop did the right thing.

[JimC]

I am not going to answer the question of whether it was justified or not. You can make that call on your own. My answer will not influence your decision at all, so it does not matter. I do however feel sorry for both the dumb sh-ts family and the cop, as the outcome was tragic for both.  I have been in situations like that, I have had the Monday morning quarterbacks second guessing decisions that are extremely hard to make at the time they were made.   

BUT, I will ask those that feel that it was not justified if they have ever seen what a motorcycle traveling at 80-100 MPH does to a car door when crashes into it broadside at that speed? I have, they penetrate the vehicle, similar to  a battering ram.

I will make note that in this chase the motorcycle was heading from a mostly rural area where the chase started, to an urban situation where there was more and more traffic being introduced. Do we know what was a half mile up the street? The cop does. 

Jim

[Moonshot_1]

I believe the officer was justified in stopping the pursuit in that manner. The rider's death is solely on the rider. He chose to turn the throttle. He chose to run. No compassion for the guy here.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I believe the officer was justified in stopping the pursuit in that manner. The rider's death is solely on the rider. He chose to turn the throttle. He chose to run. No compassion for the guy here.

I have no compassion for the rider either. He was wrong, no doubt about it. Just seems like the police could have handled it better.

[Gavin_Sons]

I'm surprised how many here think it was justified. 

Q: What happens when you run from police?
A: They chase you.
Q: what happens when you don't stop?
A: they continue to chase you.
Q: what happens after several miles of being chased by police?
A: they run your ass over before you hurt innocent people.

Are you still surprised?

I believe most police depts. nowadays have policies that back off the chase if it's deemed a danger. Evidently this one didn't or they didn't follow it. It seems quite obvious the cop got tired of following him and decided to put him to the ground. He probably didn't mean to kill him. But it would seem he should have known that was a big possibility. I agree the guy shouldn't have run from the cops. It wasn't very smart. Seems they surely had the license plate # of the guy. Wouldn't it have been wiser to back off and get him later ?

I'm surprised how many here think it was justified. 

I didn't read where anybody said they thought it was justified, only that once he elected to run, he made the bad outcome a possibility.

-RP

Maybe I misunderstood . I thought a lot of the responses were affirmative that the cop did the right thing.

What if it was a stolen bike? How would they catch him later? I have heard of instances where they back off but only when they have a thermal copter in the air and they can cut him off up ahead. Put this joker down before he hurts some innocent people. JUSTIFIED? I know it won't change any minds, meathead has this problem of seeing the best in people, sometimes I wish I had that problem. I don't trust anyone until they prove to be trustworthy.  Yes, I just complimented Meathead. Now I need to go wash this taste out of my mouth. 

[Valkorado]

BUT, I will ask those that feel that it was not justified if they have ever seen what a motorcycle traveling at 80-100 MPH does to a car door when crashes into it broadside at that speed? I have, they penetrate the vehicle, similar to  a battering ram.

Jim

I have!



The rider in the video was an idiot, and he put many lives at risk.  I lose no sleep tonight over his death, but still am not convinced it was necessary.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Gavin, I wish I did see the best in people. Unfortunately I'm not near as charitable as you give me credit for. I have come to usually expect the worst. I have little sympathy for this guy. I will say it again , he was wrong ! Obviously I'm not a cop and know little about law enforcement. But I think police around the country have studied these things and come up with policies to best handle them. I think most police forces would have backed off this chase of a speeder . Now if he was an armed robber or some other violent criminal I'm sure it would be different. (Just have a beer, it will remove the taste quickly)  

[Mr Whiskey]

So whats your opinion?

Had it comin'
My wife or kids coulda been pullin' outta one of those parkin' lots.
Glad to see the officer had the stones to make him stop endangering innocent people.

[Gavin_Sons]

Gavin, I wish I did see the best in people. Unfortunately I'm not near as charitable as you give me credit for. I have come to usually expect the worst. I have little sympathy for this guy. I will say it again , he was wrong ! Obviously I'm not a cop and know little about law enforcement. But I think police around the country have studied these things and come up with policies to best handle them. I think most police forces would have backed off this chase of a speeder . Now if he was an armed robber or some other violent criminal I'm sure it would be different. (Just have a beer, it will remove the taste quickly)  

   I don't drink much anymore but ill have some sweet tea instead. 2 little boys take up most of my drinking time. And plus hangovers last alot longer these days.

[old2soon]

I believe most if not all of us KNOW the rider made what in retrospect is/was a truly shitty decision. At the point the L E O rear ended him it was no longer the riders decision. AND unless I missed something or other-we do Not KNOW what brought the chase about in the first place. Had that rider Elected to stop instead of showin his ass this entire "what do you think" Q & A here would NOT have transpired. But that rider IS dead. I also agree that the L E O KNOWS what lies ahead. And add this to the equation-That L E O WILL live with this for the rest of his life. I've seen and observed "stuff" that makes unannounced arrivals when I least expect them AND they Absolutely REFUSE to leave or back down. There IS a Reason other L E Os Only talk to other L E Os. RIDE SAFE.

[Pappy!]

I agree with a lot of the comments about the fact that he (the Harley rider) "should'a. would'a and could'a done things differently.
He was speeding.
Last time I checked speeding was not an offense that called for a death sentence.
The officer could have taken his tag number and backed off. Pretty simple.
At that point the rider could have "gotten away" and stopped the reckless endangerment to others. Both the officer and the speeder were at fault there.
The Sherriff Dept. could have simply paid the rider a visit at his house at a later time and presented him with his prize.
Instead testosterone took over and the officer ended the life of this rider. Extremely poor judgement and did NOT have to happen.
I felt strongly enough about this to look up the Sheffiff of that county and write an email to him.
Let him know the video is going viral and we the people are watching.

[Gavin_Sons]

I agree with a lot of the comments about the fact that he (the Harley rider) "should'a. would'a and could'a done things differently.
He was speeding.
Last time I checked speeding was not an offense that called for a death sentence.
The officer could have taken his tag number and backed off. Pretty simple.
At that point the rider could have "gotten away" and stopped the reckless endangerment to others. Both the officer and the speeder were at fault there.
The Sherriff Dept. could have simply paid the rider a visit at his house at a later time and presented him with his prize.
Instead testosterone took over and the officer ended the life of this rider. Extremely poor judgement and did NOT have to happen.
I felt strongly enough about this to look up the Sheffiff of that county and write an email to him.
Let him know the video is going viral and we the people are watching.

Like my question earlier, What if the bike was stolen? How would they catch him later? We really don't know the before and after stories. If he would have just pulled over he would still be alive. He chose to run and he died. Bad choice. Hehad plenty of warnimg and was headed into more crowded areas. I stick with the officer on this one.

[Gavin_Sons]

Maybe he ran because he had pot on him?

[Hooter]

The rider was antagonistic to say the least. He knew he was being chased.  100+ MPH through intersections, stupid. Could the chase have been broken off, definitely,  with bike ID, yes. Stolen, probably not. With all that happened did he deserve to die, no. But I don't see malicious intent on the officers part.

The first bump was light, the second not so much. But the article stated the rider missed a shift so both he and the officer were accelerating causing a harder impact the second time, thus the end result. Its apparent the first bump by the officer was controlled. The second due to the missed shift was unable to be controlled by the officer. The body of the chase was conducted properly. I see the end result as totally accidental with a poor outcome.

People run for various reasons. Warrants, suspended, drunk, stoned, both? Toxicology in this case would be interesting to know. As for the rider, he paid the ultimate price for his stupidity. He put numerous others in danger, possibly fatal danger.

As for the officer I have mixed feelings. Could some things have been done differently?  Yes, but we don't know all the circumstances. Until someone is in a chase situation in an officers position, don't be so quick to criticize.  Chases are difficult from an officers perspective. Just because we ride doesn't always make the biker right.

[Skinhead]

Gavin, I wish I did see the best in people. Unfortunately I'm not near as charitable as you give me credit for. I have come to usually expect the worst. I have little sympathy for this guy. I will say it again , he was wrong ! Obviously I'm not a cop and know little about law enforcement. But I think police around the country have studied these things and come up with policies to best handle them. I think most police forces would have backed off this chase of a speeder . Now if he was an armed robber or some other violent criminal I'm sure it would be different. (Just have a beer, it will remove the taste quickly) 

I think the department policies are in effect to prevent lawsuits against the department and thus the taxpayers, not because they are concerned about the safety of the idiots they are chasing.  These folks aren't running for nothing, they may not have a good reason, but stopping and facing the music would have meant the dude would eventually be going home, and not a funeral home.

[Chrisj CMA]

Sad, yes. Unfortunate, yes unnecessary, yes. Justifed, totally

[phideux]

The guy on the bike brought it all on himself, I feel for the Deputy.
1- Don't break the law
2- If you get caught breaking the law, pull over and take it like a man
3- If you don't do number 2 and instigate a chase and drive like an asshole blowing through stop signs and lights at triple digit speeds putting everyone elses life on the line, you deserve whatever you get
4- If you get killed doing #3, good riddance, glad you didn't injure or kill everyone else.

To the folks that say police shouldn't chase people that break the law, if that was the case, every time someone broke the law, any law, all they would have to do is hit the gas and get away to break the law another day.

[michaelyoung254]

In my honest opinion (for what little it's worth), the officer was justified in ending the chase. We have no idea what the rider did or why he was running from the police, but let's be honest here, people don't run from the police simply to avoid a traffic ticket. Now, did the rider deserve to die for what he had done, no probably not, but his death however unfortunate is 100% on him. Had he just pulled over, and faced the music for whatever he had done, he would still be alive to tell about it. For those who state that the police should have let him go, I'm sorry, but I disagree. Just letting them go because they refuse to stop only encourages more of this type of behavior. Again, to those who feel that the officer was wrong to end the chase using whatever force was necessary, imagine for a minute that one of your loved ones was hit and killed by this idiot. What would you be saying now? Something tells me that you would be screaming about the fact that the police didn't do everything necessary to prevent such a tragedy. Once again, in my honest opinion, that's probably what the police officer was trying to prevent. He did everything necessary to prevent the situation from maiming or killing innocents which is exactly what he should do.

BTW, it looked to me like the officer bumped him once lightly attempting to convince him to stop, but it sure didn't look like the rider had any intention to do so.

[Willow]

Putting oneself in the position of the LEO, when the lights go on and someone chooses to run one must assume there is more reason than avoiding a traffic ticket.  Perhaps the person running is a wanted felon or other criminal.  As Gavin pointed out, if the vehicle is stolen the tag does no good.  As others have pointed out, the rider put himself and others in danger by choosing to initiate the chase.

I'll have to add myself to those surprising the meathead.  Absolutely justified but in viewing the video I am convinced that it was not intentional, at least not at that amount of force.  I also believe that if a policeman calls for a fleeing suspect to stop and the suspect does not then means to halt the fleeing suspect, including possibly gunfire, is justified.

He didn't die because he was speeding and the policeman chose to kill him.  He died because he chose a highly life threatening behavior and fortunately he was the only one to suffer the ultimate consequence.   

[da prez]

   I know we have several LEO's on the board. In talking to some that come to the bike shop , before a driver is taken out , ramming , the officer is supposed to call in for permission. (exception on a judgement call in a special situation). The biker , in my opinion, made a very bad judgement call. We all know that the bike usually looses to a cage , truck , retaining wall etc. I am positive that the media (non-riders (yeah , I am biased)  will blame the LEO for excess force. The cops are always wrong until you need their help.

                                              da prez