plumbing conundrum

[hubcapsc]

I've learned a lot about the bolts that connect the toilet tank to the toilet
bowl in the last couple of days.

I have an American Standard toilet that I bought at Home Depot 17 years ago
or so.

I replaced the innards of the tank with a fluidmaster kit, and now there's
a leak, a slow drip, from the tank bolts.

My American "Standard" big-box store toilet uses non-standard 1/4 inch
tank bolts that don't have threads on the whole shaft, just part way.

Fluidmaster wants me to fasten the tank to the bowl like this, which I'm
sure would solve my problem:



Since the only bolts I can get don't have threads the whole way up, I can only
fasten the tank to the bowl like this:



The above is how it has always been, I guess now it's the stiff new fluidmaster
"donut" gasket that seals the water passage between the tank and the bowl
is keeping me from tightening the nut in the second picture
tight enough to seal down on the rubber washer on the tank bolt at the bolt
head inside the tank.

I'm fixing to go in there and crank down on the nut on the tank bolt a little more.
When the porcelain/ceramic breaks or cracks I guess I'll be replacing the whole
toilet (NOT WITH AMERICAN STANDARD) because of a danged bolt.

Most do-it-yourselfers (like me) have to learn the hard way that you can't
put a metal washer inside the tank because that almost certainly will cause
a tank bolt leak. The giant round flat-on-the-bottom head on a real tank bolt
does the job of a metal washer without having a leaky metal-to-metal contact as would
be there if a "normal" bolt of some kind was used with a washer. The only washer that
can be inside the tank is a rubber washer, as in the above pictures.

Sometimes the diverse readers of this board have good solutions to these subtle problems   

-Mike

[Oss]

I would use a red hose washer between the bolt and tank so you can  crank it

[Binkie]

I'm with Oss....use a rubber gasket between the tank and stool. You could also use a die and add threads to the bolts since I bet they aren't hardened bolts. Another idea is to use a toilet wax ring. Just make your own gasket out of the wax.

[Beardo]

Personally, I would have just replaced the whole toilet. They're only about $75, probably cheaper than that in the US.

...but then again, I replaced my stock OEM petcock with a new OEM rather than rebuilding it too.  I get people wanting to rebuild stuff that is rebuildable but sometimes the easier route is just spending a few dollars more and replacing the whole thing, as often that's what ends up being done in the end anyway.

Good luck.

[hubcapsc]

You could also use a die and add threads to the bolts since I bet they aren't hardened bolts. Another idea is to use a toilet wax ring. Just make your own gasket out of the wax.

B and G in the above pictures represent rubber washers... they aren't red   , but
there's already rubber washers at both ends. B is the only washer (no metal washers
allowed) that can be in the tank (in the water) or else it will almost certainly leak.

There's a nice new $225 toilet down at the nearby plumbing supply house I'll get before I
start trying to thread my own screws or make new donut gaskets... the screws are supposedly
brass (they need to not rust) so I don't guess they are hardened...

-Mike

[Jess from VA]

If the unthreaded part of the rod does not fill the tank hole up enough, maybe wrap it with some Teflon tape and RTV it (and the underside of the washers)?

I feel for you Mike, my two 3-gallon American Standards are both working and not leaking down (inside, not outside) at the same time for years and years.  I had to pay the king's ransom for a new water heater recently, and the plumbers helped me out with a part I did not know existed anymore on one, and some good advice on the other (forehead smack).

If the EPA didn't hate these toilets so much, I probably would have replaced them years ago.  Though when all fixed up, they work perfectly.  

My passive aggressive nature tends to make some of my decisions for me.    

[hubcapsc]

Maybe a little RTV silicone sealant?

The last time I had the tank off, after I realized the lack of threads prevented
me from following Fluidmaster's installation advice, I used RTV on the in-tank
rubber washer. That time (Monday afternoon) the drip slowed so much that
I thought it was fixed. But it is just slower. I'm tightening the nut (I in the picture)
incrementally now, hoping the leak will stop before the ceramic cracks...

-Mike

[Gryphon Rider]

Can you make or find a hard plastic spacer (like a super-thick washer) to fill the space between the tank and the bowl?

[hubcapsc]

Can you make or find a hard plastic spacer (like a super-thick washer) to fill the space between the tank and the bowl?

Tightening E is what squishes B , thereby sealing the bolt-hole in the tank. Since I don't have
threads all the way up the bolt, I can't have an E ... If I understand you correctly, adding filler to the space
between the tank and the bowl won't help...  I'm stuck trying to squish B with just I ...

-Mike

[bill-jr]

Filler will go in place of E
Just stack six or eight washers together as your filler
could even tape them all together to make it "one" washer
Prob need three hands and ambidextrous to hold it all together and tighten   

[Cracker Jack]

Personally, I would have just replaced the whole toilet. They're only about $75, probably cheaper than that in the US.

...but then again, I replaced my stock OEM petcock with a new OEM rather than rebuilding it too.  I get people wanting to rebuild stuff that is rebuildable but sometimes the easier route is just spending a few dollars more and replacing the whole thing, as often that's what ends up being done in the end anyway.

Good luck.

My wife is in total agreement with Beardo! 

Me, not as much.

[hubcapsc]

My wife is in total agreement with Beardo!

I'm moving in that direction  ...

I see the logic of what Gryphon and Bill-Jr are saying, and also
the three-handedness and ambidexterity that would be
needed.

I've continued to incrementally tighten, and seem to have moved the leak,
it's not dripping off the end of the tank bolt anymore.

A fellow at work had the same problem, and he fixed it by tightening,
but he said to make sure to tighten the same on both sides so
that the tank is balanced... I'm not balanced    - check it out:



I'll work towards getting it balanced and see what happens...

-Mike

[Jess from VA]

Perhaps a couple equal length pvc pipe spacers (half inch or 5/8 diameter) over the unthreaded bolt, between the tank and potty, would help you get to level, and might also spread the tightening better to pull the washers tight AND flat.  Getting the length just right would be tricky (measure now while tight).

It would seem the leak is resulting from the washer being pulled tight in center, and maybe lifting on the edges (letting water seep in)... how about a metal washer over the top of the rubber one, to hold the rubber one uniformly flat against the tank bottom?  Galvanized won't rust, for a long time.

[Sorcerer]

Ditch E D & G. Use flat metal washer at nut. Tighten until tank contacts stool, front and back there is porclen bumps on the stool. That is what I've been doing for 30 years. Note: find the tank bolts in 5/16 they work much better.

[bassman]

M'be use a stack of flat rubber washers to fill the area and adding one or two extra on each bolt to allow for compression and "balancing" the tank?

[hubcapsc]

Ditch E D & G. Use flat metal washer at nut. Tighten until tank contacts stool, front and back there is porclen bumps on the stool. That is what I've been doing for 30 years. Note: find the tank bolts in 5/16 they work much better.

There is no E and D. I'll get rid of G before I give up. The whole problem
is that the whacky American "Standard" toilet has bolt holes that are too
small for normal 5/16 bolts. I have new washers, the ones that came with
the Fluidmaster kit, their holes are for 5/16 bolts, so they're a little big for
my bolts.

I've tried re-using the original tank washers.

I've tried new rubber washers with the right sized holes from the rubber washer bin
at Lowe's.

And now I'm trying the washers from the Fluidmaster kit.

Next G goes out the window...

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone...

-Mike

[hubcapsc]

Perhaps a couple equal length pvc pipe spacers (half inch or 5/8 diameter) over the unthreaded bolt, between the tank and potty, would help you get to level,

The "unlevelness" in the picture is a trick of perspective... it looks that way from the
other side too...

-Mike

[Patrick]

The fluid Master keenie bolts that I've changed have been full threaded. I would think any plumbing supply, even Lowes or Home Depot, would have them.

[hubcapsc]

The fluid Master keenie bolts that I've changed have been full threaded. I would think any plumbing supply, even Lowes or Home Depot, would have them.

The bolt holes in my American (non)Standard toilet won't accept the easily
obtainable fully threaded 5/16 tank bolts that are available everywhere, bolts like
that were included in my Fluidmaster rebuild kit.

I'm currently waiting to see if the washers that came with my Fluidmaster
kit are doing the trick, no drips have formed yet...

-Mike

[Patrick]

The fluid Master keenie bolts that I've changed have been full threaded. I would think any plumbing supply, even Lowes or Home Depot, would have them.

The bolt holes in my American (non)Standard toilet won't accept the easily
obtainable fully threaded 5/16 tank bolts that are available everywhere, bolts like
that were included in my Fluidmaster rebuild kit.

I'm currently waiting to see if the washers that came with my Fluidmaster
kit are doing the trick, no drips have formed yet...

-Mike

Hmm, OK. I see that you say you're trying to use 1/4" that came with the toilet. I didn't realize the 5/16" in the kit didn't fit thru the holes. I have not run into that problem, I've always had them fit. Maybe tight but they fit. I'm wondering how much more they need to be able to fit. I'm wondering if there is just some 'slag' in the way, or, how much too small is the hole. I'm wondering if the holes can be slightly enlarged without damaging the tank.
But, this is all moot if the leak has stopped. The tank should be as level as possible.

[hubcapsc]

But, this is all moot if the leak has stopped. The tank should be as level as possible.

It is still leaking. I think now from the "donut"... new toilet tomorrow... I was
about to try the old softer more pliable donut, but I don't see it anywhere,
it probably went out in the trash on Monday...

People on the Internet have used different kinds of dremel attachments and
ceramic drills and stuff to make these holes bigger... it is easy to find
people having trouble with these crappy  toilets: and their non-standard
bolts, here's one...

https://www.plbg.com/forum/read.php?1,436943

I have lots of patience, just ask Stanley Steamer about when we changed out
his alternator. Putting in the Fluidmaster kit on a regular toilet should have
taken an hour or so even for a rookie like me. I'm two days into it now and
I can break this toilet down and put it back together now  like a
battle hardened ranger field stripping his weapon...

Thanks again everyone for all the help  this motorcycle
forum is my goto place for plumbing and hvac problems...

-Mike

[cookiedough]

Personally, I would have just replaced the whole toilet. They're only about $75, probably cheaper than that in the US.

...but then again, I replaced my stock OEM petcock with a new OEM rather than rebuilding it too.  I get people wanting to rebuild stuff that is rebuildable but sometimes the easier route is just spending a few dollars more and replacing the whole thing, as often that's what ends up being done in the end anyway.

Good luck.

agree,  just buy whole new poddy.  WE did that with my moms in house 30 years when I went on over and noticed 2 inches of standing water in bathroom and onto dining room carpet she never noticed this past winter sloshing around in dirty water on floor.  WE decided to instead of just taking off old poddy and installing hopefully just new wax ring would solve the leak,  we just spent 150 bucks on taller, nicer flushing poddy and be done with it.

After all,  30 years of flushing on back then guessing 50 dollar poddy, we got our useful life out of it. 

[Earl43P]

Any decent hardware store will sell you the DIE to fully thread your 1/4" bronze/brass bolts. (just keep driving PAST HomoDepot or bLowes to get there)
It'll literally cost you <$5.  Carry the bolt or its nut in with you to match the thread/pitch.

You're being stubborn and ignoring the proper solution (and risking cracking your tank in the process).  I'd bend over backward to not replace an irreplaceable toilet like that.  The new ones just won't flush like the old Standards do.

[cookiedough]

Any decent hardware store will sell you the DIE to fully thread your 1/4" bronze/brass bolts. (just keep driving PAST HomoDepot or bLowes to get there)
It'll literally cost you <$5.  Carry the bolt or its nut in with you to match the thread/pitch.

You're being stubborn and ignoring the proper solution (and risking cracking your tank in the process).  I'd bend over backward to not replace an irreplaceable toilet like that.  The new ones just won't flush like the old Standards do.

not so sure about that being new ones not flushing as well as old Standards.  new ones have more flushing power force than our 2 old poddys in our house.  They use less water as well but if it works for 30+ years,  no sense in replacing unless other issues.  Both my guts internals had to be replaced on both old poddies as well as bolts on bottom of both poddy cracked off making sitting on poddy unstable and loose.  I did just replace both sets of mounting bolts on both poddies, but thought about replacing due to age.  So far, so good might last another 10 years?

[hubcapsc]

and risking cracking your tank in the process

That ship has sailed, it must be cracked, the leak just can't be coming from
anywhere else.

I have a new toilet in a box ready to install. It should take a couple of hours.

-Mike "I'll probably be done in a week  "

[The emperor has no clothes]

and risking cracking your tank in the process

That ship has sailed, it must be cracked, the leak just can't be coming from
anywhere else.

I have a new toilet in a box ready to install. It should take a couple of hours.

-Mike "I'll probably be done in a week  "

sorry   reminds me of myself. 

[hubcapsc]

Well... I brought home the new w/c, ate lunch, watched Gunsmoke from 1:00 to 2:00 and
was done with the install by around 4:30, even though I had to go back to town for a
slightly longer supply line. Still no leaks  ... I brought home a couple of
extra wax rings in case I needed a do over, but I guess I lined it up OK the first time...

Plopping in a new one beats trying to fix the old one!

-Mike "this time, anyhow..."

[Beardo]

Yeah, most of us are pretty mechanically inclined and we want to maintain and fix stuff ourselves, it's in our nature. It's also a bit of stubbornness too, I think...I won't let this thing beat me. 

I've learned the lesson so may times though...just spend the money. It's not much more in the long run, and much less stressful.

 

[threevalks]

Well... I brought home the new w/c, ate lunch, watched Gunsmoke from 1:00 to 2:00 and
was done with the install by around 4:30, even though I had to go back to town for a
slightly longer supply line. Still no leaks  ... I brought home a couple of
extra wax rings in case I needed a do over, but I guess I lined it up OK the first time...

Plopping in a new one beats trying to fix the old one!

-Mike "this time, anyhow..."

I learned a long time ago. When starting a plumbing project. Go to plumbing store, buy two or more of everything,  start  the job, cuss, work, cuss, etc, etc , etc. Finally finish job, take back what you didn't use or mess up. Usually doesn't take more than one more trip to town.

[RainMaker]

Plopping in a new one...

Seems appropriate in a toilet discussion.

[Patrick]

'Plopping in a new one'


Yep, appropriate !