Respect ?

[The emperor has no clothes]

I've noticed in the other threads about players kneeling during the anthem, the common sentiment is that they are disrespecting our veterans and especially those that died for our country. I have a different take on it. I think they are being disrespectful to all Americans. Not just to our military veterans. We as Americans all have a huge stake in our countries success. I willingly raised my hand and gave over my life for 4 years, I was not forced, nor was I doing it to earn respect. Maybe the case could be made for veterans who were drafted that they earn more respect. I don't know. But I do know that because I served our country makes me no more American than my grandson or your granddaughter or any other citizen of our country.
 As Land Elephant stated, I just floated around in the ocean. I didn't fight in war, maybe if I did I would feel more entitled to respect. I don't think so though. Maybe if I had seen families bury their sons I would feel more entitled to respect from others. I think we veterans who served are no more deserving of respect than other good citizens of this great country. I did it because I wanted to. I'm glad I did.
 To sum up : these players who are kneeling during the anthem are showing disrespect to ALL of us. I wouldn't change our laws to stop it though. I wouldn't lump all players into this group either. I actually find more fault with the owners for letting this minority of players control their game. They could put a stop to it tomorrow without infringing on anyone's civil rights.

[Oss]

The spectre of the Death of the nfl would change the equation

Yes the owners are the equivalent of the parents not controlling their kids

The commissioner is the principal unwilling to suspend fine or ban

The players union is a pawn of forces beyond their control now that they have been bought

Good post meathead

[..]

"Entitled" to respect?

Therein lies part of the problem???

Me, Me, Me, Me, Me..................................................

[Willow]

I disagree on several points with my friend, the meathead.

I do believe that those who have given of themselves to serve our country are better positioned as Americans than those who did not.  If I had my way every able bodied young man would be required to serve before being given the right to vote.  Entitled?  I have not heard a lot of veterans calling for respect for themselves.  I have heard many veterans calling for respect for their brothers who sacrificed.

I do agree with the point that those disrespecting the flag an the anthem are spitting upon the nation as a whole.  Perhaps it's just more intensely felt by those who saw their friends lose life or limb protecting the preservation of this nation.

The owners can't control?  They, the NFL, exercised control when the Dallas players were not allowed to memorialize the fallen Dallas policemen.  They exercised control when they disapproved of Tim Tebow kneeling in  prayer.  The owners and NFL can't control?  I'm going to have to call bullshit on that one.

Would I change the laws to prohibit disrespectful protests?  No, it's not laws that need to change.  What needs to happen is disapproving reaction such as fans not supporting teams and leagues that put up with it and managers that let those disrespectful protesters sit on the bench.  It's entertainment.  They're selling a product.  It's up to the customers to manage.     

[Robert]

Why change laws, a simple change to their contract stating they have to stand for the anthem would do the trick. Some already have that.


The Miami Dolphins’ requirement that players stand for the flag and Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones’ threat to bench any player who kneels during the anthem were both clear wins for Trump and Pence, said Le Batard, the co-host of ESPN’s “Highly Questionable.”

Pence walked out of the Indianapolis Colts’ game against the San Francisco 49’ers after players knelt during the national anthem. Trump claimed credit for Pence’s walkout on Sunday, saying that he instructed the vice president to leave the game " if "  players disrespected the American flag.

[bagelboy]

50 year, three generation football family. I turned off my tv 3 weeks ago in disgust. If everyone does it, you will see immediate results. Unfortunately, as always, most complain, but do nothing to stop it! When ratings drop, the NFL will listen!

[The emperor has no clothes]

I disagree on several points with my friend, the meathead.



The owners can't control?  They, the NFL, exercised control when the Dallas players were not allowed to memorialize the fallen Dallas policemen.  They exercised control when they disapproved of Tim Tebow kneeling in  prayer.  The owners and NFL can't control?  I'm going to have to call bullshit on that one.

I guess I didn't write it clearly. I DO believe the owners can control this. I blame them more than anyone else for not controlling it. I believe their standard contracts with the players allows for them to punish or release players for conduct detrimental to the team. I think they choose not to for whatever reason (which escapes me).

[MP]

If, the very first time Colin kneeled, the NFL had suspended him for a game, and said anyone not standing would be suspended, it would have been over.

Now, it has a life of its own, and no matter what the NFL does now, half the people will be PO'd.

[Rams]

I think they choose not to for whatever reason (which escapes me).

Seriously?   Come on meathead, you're smarter than that.

Think Liberal Political Correctness, add a financial balance sheet, subtract the protesting players, divide by a win loss record, now multiply by the fans reactions.   You'll find an answer  there if you really want to find one.

The fact is, the NFL has been trying to run a Social Service Club and not a business.   Jerry Jones recognizes this but, it may be too little and too late.

If, the very first time Colin kneeled, the NFL had suspended him for a game, and said anyone not standing would be suspended, it would have been over.

Now, it has a life of its own, and no matter what the NFL does now, half the people will be PO'd.

Yepper, true.   For some reason, this brought Deputy Barney Fife from the Andy Griffin Show to mind.

Nip it in the Bud, Nip It I tell you, Nip It.  

[The emperor has no clothes]

I think they choose not to for whatever reason (which escapes me).

Seriously?   Come on meathead, you're smarter than that.

Think Liberal Political Correctness, add a financial balance sheet, subtract the protesting players, divide by a win loss record, now multiply by the fans reactions.   You'll find an answer  there if you really want to find one.

The fact is, the NFL has been trying to run a Social Service Club and not a business.   Jerry Jones recognizes this but, it may be too little and too late.

You haven't been paying attention to the NFL I can see. These owners are all about money.

[Rams]

I think they choose not to for whatever reason (which escapes me).

Seriously?   Come on meathead, you're smarter than that.

Think Liberal Political Correctness, add a financial balance sheet, subtract the protesting players, divide by a win loss record, now multiply by the fans reactions.   You'll find an answer  there if you really want to find one.

The fact is, the NFL has been trying to run a Social Service Club and not a business.   Jerry Jones recognizes this but, it may be too little and too late.

You haven't been paying attention to the NFL I can see. These owners are all about money.

Yeah sure, that's it.       Yeah but, not understanding their base is a huge problem.   I should have put that in the formula but, I (incorrectly) assumed you knew that.  

Edited: To ensure clarity, their base is the folks who pay to watch.

[da prez]

 Robert , it is not a matter of who gets credit for Pence walking out. He , in his own mind knew he was doing the right thing.
 The pledge of allegence was removed from schools because it offended some students (parents) that want to change the American way to suit them. If you do not like the American way , then go back to where you came from.
  The freedom in this country gives everyone the right to be morons. The Military are the ones that keep this country free so more idiots can change out life style to suit the style they left.
       The players that disrespect the Flag and Anthem are showing the young people that look up to them it is O K to do what ever they wish.    

                                                          da prez                                      

[cookiedough]

All it would take to change this is about 50% of the NFL watchers to one weekend BAN from going to the games across the U.S. live in person and all the fans NOT to watch ANY NFL game for one weekend. 

Problem solved, but we know that will not happen unfortunately...

I like watching 1-2 games every weekend, but can live without it and for this issue, would be glad to miss a few weekends of football.  After all, I usually record a 3 hour game and fast forward it taking 1 1/2 hours tops to watch fully. 

[Alpha Dog]

 If I had my way every able bodied young man would be required to serve before being given the right to vote.     

That right there would do more to bring this country together, and the reasons are many, than any other solution I have heard.  I would expand it to women also.  Either military or Peace Corp, or other service.

[Robert]

Robert , it is not a matter of who gets credit for Pence walking out. He , in his own mind knew he was doing the right thing.
 The pledge of allegence was removed from schools because it offended some students (parents) that want to change the American way to suit them. If you do not like the American way , then go back to where you came from.
  The freedom in this country gives everyone the right to be morons. The Military are the ones that keep this country free so more idiots can change out life style to suit the style they left.
       The players that disrespect the Flag and Anthem are showing the young people that look up to them it is O K to do what ever they wish.     

                                                          da prez                                       

I agree except on a couple of points.

Its not the military that keep the country free its really the citizens. The military are the enforcers of the will of the nation, without the will we have no nation.

Its the values and respect that this nation was built on are not being taught. I would say history is lost in the schools today.


I just learned the NFL is a non profit organization. Doesn't that just frost you.

[Gavin_Sons]

I disagree on several points with my friend, the meathead.

I do believe that those who have given of themselves to serve our country are better positioned as Americans than those who did not.  If I had my way every able bodied young man would be required to serve before being given the right to vote.  Entitled?  I have not heard a lot of veterans calling for respect for themselves.  I have heard many veterans calling for respect for their brothers who sacrificed.

I do agree with the point that those disrespecting the flag an the anthem are spitting upon the nation as a whole.  Perhaps it's just more intensely felt by those who saw their friends lose life or limb protecting the preservation of this nation.

The owners can't control?  They, the NFL, exercised control when the Dallas players were not allowed to memorialize the fallen Dallas policemen.  They exercised control when they disapproved of Tim Tebow kneeling in  prayer.  The owners and NFL can't control?  I'm going to have to call bullshit on that one.

Would I change the laws to prohibit disrespectful protests?  No, it's not laws that need to change.  What needs to happen is disapproving reaction such as fans not supporting teams and leagues that put up with it and managers that let those disrespectful protesters sit on the bench.  It's entertainment.  They're selling a product.  It's up to the customers to manage.     

You really think you are superior to those that did not serve? I have heard you mention this before. Just wondering if you really think this is true.

[LandElephant]

The problem is not only the NFL it is the continuing erosion of the American social values by the enlightened who have taught a generation that America is no longer a great nation.  Remove prayer from school, stop saying the Pledge, rewrite history not as factual but to please the enlightened.

Here is an idea.  The next time an American Service member is killed in action how about we force those protesting p[layers to kneel at the grave site while the families put there son or daughter in the ground.  Better yet don't advertise the funeral and take it the NFL stadium. When it's time to play the Star Spangle Banner, shutdown all the concessions, make everyone go to their seats, have the players line the field, and honor that fallen soldier. Then go ahead and kneel or stick or fist in the air.  That would be a class act. Maybe that will drive home the true meaning of the ultimate sacrifice that our young men and women committed too everyday of there service life.

Better yet, make that protesting NFL player buy his own ticket to Iraq, Afghanistan, Niger, or wherever and escort that fallen soldier home.  Not just to Andrews AFB.  But to the morgue, then follow the casket to their final resting place just like many of us have had to do with our fallen comrades.  

If you are talking about social injustice then why don't you tell you politicians to quit hamstring the American people, especially minorities with all of these so call programs that reward them for not trying to advance themselves.  It's not a conservative thing.  The largest death to the black family in the inter-cities was welfare.  Maybe you enlighten individuals should read up on the failed war on poverty and LBJ's Great Society.  Over 15 Trillion (yes that's with a T) has been spent and we are worse off than when it started.  

That's what the enlighten people have done to this country.  But let me ask you this, Where were you during the civil rights days?  Where were you when there was segregation?  Do you have any idea how hard many Americans fought to eradicate this social injustice that now gives these whiney NFL players the opportunities that they have today.  It just wasn't black and minorities that fought against these social injustice, it was all races.  But that has been slowly removed from the teaching of history.

I'll tell you where I was at.  In Connecticut I was forced bused to an predominately Black and Porte Rican high school because of court ordered desegregation.  Three years I traveled over 40 miles a day because of this.  My mother and father both retired military refused to go to a church because they didn't allow blacks to attend.  They marched, but better yet they taught their children that everyone is equal and should be treated that way.  When I joined the Marines my Recruit training battalion was 80% black and we were taught there was only none color, green.  In Vietnam I fought next to all minorities and defended them. To this day, I don't know color.  I know the person.  

Screw them, Screw the NFL, and quite frankly screw you narrow minded enlightened people. You have truly caused the problems of today.

Charlie Morse
Landelephant

PS: Willow if you want to delete this post feel free to do so.

[Pete]

I've noticed in the other threads about players kneeling during the anthem, the common sentiment is that they are disrespecting our veterans and especially those that died for our country. I have a different take on it. I think they are being disrespectful to all Americans. Not just to our military veterans. We as Americans all have a huge stake in our countries success. I willingly raised my hand and gave over my life for 4 years, I was not forced, nor was I doing it to earn respect. Maybe the case could be made for veterans who were drafted that they earn more respect. I don't know. But I do know that because I served our country makes me no more American than my grandson or your granddaughter or any other citizen of our country.
 As Land Elephant stated, I just floated around in the ocean. I didn't fight in war, maybe if I did I would feel more entitled to respect. I don't think so though. Maybe if I had seen families bury their sons I would feel more entitled to respect from others. I think we veterans who served are no more deserving of respect than other good citizens of this great country. I did it because I wanted to. I'm glad I did.
 To sum up : these players who are kneeling during the anthem are showing disrespect to ALL of us. I wouldn't change our laws to stop it though. I wouldn't lump all players into this group either. I actually find more fault with the owners for letting this minority of players control their game. They could put a stop to it tomorrow without infringing on anyone's civil rights.

Well, well we agree again, well said. As for the kneelers, they get only disdain and I would hope a separation notice.

Willow - I see no problem with a service requirement and never have, but I suspect that in today's environment it will never happen.

[Willow]

You really think you are superior to those that did not serve? I have heard you mention this before. Just wondering if you really think this is true.

Superior is a word charged with implied meaning.  I don't think you've heard or read me using that term for myself.  Do I think my experience has made me better prepared to make the decisions required to participate in directing our government?  Yes.  Do you think American citizens are superior to undocumented immigrants?  Is that why one should vote and the other should not?  Do you think Americans are superior to the members of the U.N.?  Do you think eighteen year olds are superior to ten year olds? I don't think superiority is the issue.

I believe that exercising a choice to assist one in acknowledging that there is something; a group, a cause, a nation; that is bigger than oneself and more important prepares one more completely to participate in directing the ship of state.  I believe that it's important that some learn it's not all about, "What's in it for me?"

I believe that my experience as a motorcycle rider causes me toi be better prepared to operate a vehicle in traffic.

We can disagree on this one.  There's no danger that my way will ever become the way it is. 

To answer your original question, I am superior to what I would have been had I not served.  How that compares to you or anyone else is certainly up for discussion.  I was seventeen when I went through boot camp.  I was twenty-nine when I left the Corps and I was not the same young man.     

[scooperhsd]

I think a service requirement (doesn't have to be military - not everybody is an acceptable candidate for military service) is an excellent idea. Base it on the number of hours beyond initial training. This way, college students could work on theirs around their class schedule. If you did not want to attend college, you could do it around your work schedule.

The only problems I see are how to fund it and how to keep it from being a social experiment.

[Gavin_Sons]

You really think you are superior to those that did not serve? I have heard you mention this before. Just wondering if you really think this is true.

Superior is a word charged with implied meaning.  I don't think you've heard or read me using that term for myself.  Do I think my experience has made me better prepared to make the decisions required to participate in directing our government?  Yes.  Do you think American citizens are superior to undocumented immigrants?  Is that why one should vote and the other should not?  Do you think Americans are superior to the members of the U.N.?  Do you think eighteen year olds are superior to ten year olds? I don't think superiority is the issue.

I believe that exercising a choice to assist one in acknowledging that there is something; a group, a cause, a nation; that is bigger than oneself and more important prepares one more completely to participate in directing the ship of state.  I believe that it's important that some learn it's not all about, "What's in it for me?"

I believe that my experience as a motorcycle rider causes me toi be better prepared to operate a vehicle in traffic.

We can disagree on this one.  There's no danger that my way will ever become the way it is. 

To answer your original question, I am superior to what I would have been had I not served.  How that compares to you or anyone else is certainly up for discussion.  I was seventeen when I went through boot camp.  I was twenty-nine when I left the Corps and I was not the same young man.     

Thank you Willow, that answered a lot. 

[solo1]

I was drafted at 24. The Army changed me for the better.: discipline, history, serving , all made me a better person but certainly not superior in the general sense.

It most certainly made me appreciate being a citizen. So much that I also served in local government as an elected official, and I still serve in local government.

It is a constant irritation and sadness to me to see how many of our 'citizens' do not appreciate our Republic and are constantly finding fault and wanting to rid our country of any history that they deem "inappropriate'.  They cannot separate our Republic from its politicians.

Those that serve in the military today and those veterans that did serve ,for the most part, appreciate our country and if that makes them 'superior' so be it.

Those who gladly make big bucks by entertaining, whether Hollywood celebrities or sports figures, and denigrate our country by showing disrespect to it,  are fools and not worthy of my respect.

[John Schmidt]

Willow, good answers/comments in both posts. The term "superior" was never used so to me it seemed shortsighted to even bring it up. 

[ridingron]

Do you think American citizens are superior to undocumented immigrants?  Is that why one should vote and the other should not?   

I think the key word here is "citizen". When they become American citizens, they're welcome to vote.

Superior is a word that needs to be defined.

Doesn't "undocumented" mean illegal?

[Gavin_Sons]

Willow, good answers/comments in both posts. The term "superior" was never used so to me it seemed shortsighted to even bring it up. 

The only reason i used "Superior" is because i have heard him refer to himself as superior to others in other threads. I was just wondering if that is what he really thought or if there was a more in depth explanation. And there was. Now i get it. 

[The emperor has no clothes]

Robert , it is not a matter of who gets credit for Pence walking out. He , in his own mind knew he was doing the right thing.
 The pledge of allegence was removed from schools because it offended some students (parents) that want to change the American way to suit them. If you do not like the American way , then go back to where you came from.
  The freedom in this country gives everyone the right to be morons. The Military are the ones that keep this country free so more idiots can change out life style to suit the style they left.
       The players that disrespect the Flag and Anthem are showing the young people that look up to them it is O K to do what ever they wish.     

                                                          da prez                                       

I agree except on a couple of points.

Its not the military that keep the country free its really the citizens. The military are the enforcers of the will of the nation, without the will we have no nation.

Its the values and respect that this nation was built on are not being taught. I would say history is lost in the schools today.


I just learned the NFL is a non profit organization. Doesn't that just frost you.

You didn't just learn that. You just READ that from somewhere or something that doesn't know what they are talking about.  facts are a funny thing.

[hubcapsc]

The NFL has been a 501(c)(6) non-profit since 1942.

They dropped that status a year or so ago - it enables them
to be more secretive about their finances.

-Mike

[The emperor has no clothes]

The NFL has been a 501(c)(6) non-profit since 1942.

They dropped that status a year or so ago - it enables them
to be more secretive about their finances.

-Mike

Mike, the NFL is made up of independent teams that have ALWAYS been a for profit business. The league office, which is similar to trade organization overseeing the league, WAS a non profit organization. They voluntarily gave up this status because of such disinformation being desseminated.

[Chrisj CMA]

Mike Ditka was asked, HE TOLD EM

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-ditka-nfl-protests-20171010-story.html

[hubcapsc]

The NFL has been a 501(c)(6) non-profit since 1942.

They dropped that status a year or so ago - it enables them
to be more secretive about their finances.

-Mike

Mike, the NFL is made up of independent teams that have ALWAYS been a for profit business. The league office, which is similar to trade organization overseeing the league, WAS a non profit organization. They voluntarily gave up this status because of such disinformation being desseminated.

"The League Office" makes hundreds of millions of dollars a year. They were
a 501(c)(6) non-profit until last year. Now they're free to do stuff like keep
Roger Goodell's salary a secret. I don't care, mind you, but it does appear to
be so.

-Mike

[The emperor has no clothes]

The NFL has been a 501(c)(6) non-profit since 1942.

They dropped that status a year or so ago - it enables them
to be more secretive about their finances.

-Mike

Mike, the NFL is made up of independent teams that have ALWAYS been a for profit business. The league office, which is similar to trade organization overseeing the league, WAS a non profit organization. They voluntarily gave up this status because of such disinformation being desseminated.

"The League Office" makes hundreds of millions of dollars a year. They were
a 501(c)(6) non-profit until last year. Now they're free to do stuff like keep
Roger Goodell's salary a secret. I don't care, mind you, but it does appear to
be so.

-Mike

-Mike

Well, the term "makes" could be a little misleading. That is their revenue before expenses. Coincidentally very close to the NRA's revenues. Which is a non profit .

[art]

All it would take to change this is about 50% of the NFL watchers to one weekend BAN from going to the games across the U.S. live in person and all the fans NOT to watch ANY NFL game for one weekend. 

Problem solved, but we know that will not happen unfortunately...

I like watching 1-2 games every weekend, but can live without it and for this issue, would be glad to miss a few weekends of football.  After all, I usually record a 3 hour game and fast forward it taking 1 1/2 hours tops to watch fully. 

So Pence walked out of the game,good for him BUT look at all the idiots that paid big bucks to get to see a game and what did they do? Nothing. It won't change until a boycott hits them in the bankroll. Money,money.

[Rams]

That is their revenue before expenses. Coincidentally very close to the NRA's revenues. Which is a non profit .

Any way to back that statement up?   That one is hard for me to believe.

[hubcapsc]

The NFL has been a 501(c)(6) non-profit since 1942.

They dropped that status a year or so ago - it enables them
to be more secretive about their finances.

-Mike

Mike, the NFL is made up of independent teams that have ALWAYS been a for profit business. The league office, which is similar to trade organization overseeing the league, WAS a non profit organization. They voluntarily gave up this status because of such disinformation being desseminated.

"The League Office" makes hundreds of millions of dollars a year. They were
a 501(c)(6) non-profit until last year. Now they're free to do stuff like keep
Roger Goodell's salary a secret. I don't care, mind you, but it does appear to
be so.

-Mike

-Mike

Well, the term "makes" could be a little misleading. That is their revenue before expenses. Coincidentally very close to the NRA's revenues. Which is a non profit .

NRA - non profit - makes sense to me - LaPierre < 1 million

NFL - non profit (was) - a business operation - Goodell > 32 million, and he got a pay cut recently...

There's a lot of million dollar jobs I'd do if I could get them...

-Mike

[hubcapsc]

That is their revenue before expenses. Coincidentally very close to the NRA's revenues. Which is a non profit .

Any way to back that statement up?   That one is hard for me to believe.

Here's something, if you can read these things: https://www.nrafoundation.org/media/1609/2014_nraf_ar.pdf

I think they bring in about 30 something million a year and have over 100 million in assets.

They gotta be rolling in dough to be a powerful lobbying group...

-Mike

[The emperor has no clothes]

That is their revenue before expenses. Coincidentally very close to the NRA's revenues. Which is a non profit .

Any way to back that statement up?   That one is hard for me to believe.

Ron, I tried to compare same years.  What was hard to believe ? The NRA figures or the NFL figures ?
The National Football League said Tuesday it will end its tax-exempt status, squashing one of America’s most baffling corporate tax breaks and granting the mega-business more secrecy about its inner financial workings.

The change will mean the NFL’s head office, which earned revenues of about $327 million in 2013, will have to pay taxes on its income. But the football juggernaut will no longer have to file yearly tax forms that publicly disclose details like executive pay, including for commissioner Roger Goodell, who made $44 million in 2012.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The organization's overall revenue, which includes membership dues, program fees and other contributions, has boomed in recent years – rising to nearly $350 million in 2013. The majority of this money funds NRA initiatives like member newsletters, sporting events and gun safety education and training programs.

[Rams]

That is their revenue before expenses. Coincidentally very close to the NRA's revenues. Which is a non profit .

Any way to back that statement up?   That one is hard for me to believe.

Ron, I tried to compare same years.  What was hard to believe ? The NRA figures or the NFL figures ?
The National Football League said Tuesday it will end its tax-exempt status, squashing one of America’s most baffling corporate tax breaks and granting the mega-business more secrecy about its inner financial workings.

The change will mean the NFL’s head office, which earned revenues of about $327 million in 2013, will have to pay taxes on its income. But the football juggernaut will no longer have to file yearly tax forms that publicly disclose details like executive pay, including for commissioner Roger Goodell, who made $44 million in 2012.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The organization's overall revenue, which includes membership dues, program fees and other contributions, has boomed in recent years – rising to nearly $350 million in 2013. The majority of this money funds NRA initiatives like member newsletters, sporting events and gun safety education and training programs.

Won't challenge you on the numbers, if you say it's so, I'll accept it.    Not being an NRA member, I don't have a clue about their financial situation and have never bothered to look at it.   They do good things.