Robert: Regarding your comments in a recent reply (caution: religious content)

[Gryphon Rider]

Robert, this is regarding your reply in John Schmidt's thread, Difficult day at church yesterday.  I didn't want to distract from the thread supporting John in his grief, but I felt some parts of your message need to be addressed.

Had an experience similar to yours with Donna, when my wife's father passed. I really loved this man although we did not speak that much. One tough sob but had a heart of gold and a awesome businessman. Loved his family took care of them. I walked in to see him one last time and left after a short visit. Was a bit sad and upset and all of sudden about an hour later and without explanation I started to be really happy. It didn't last long but I knew he made it and was told later it was the time of his passing.

 I know that God is in control and I know more make it into heaven than we think. But when we loose here one so close here on earth it still hurts. I always say to myself they are away maybe on vacation and I will see them one day. For me it seems to take some of the sting out.

After much research and prayer I have confident that most are in such a better place and in no pain. The ways people go are shocking but in the twinkling of an eye they are at peace and joy.

What It’s Like to Escape From the Brink of Death
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2016/04/dying-near-death-experiences/

project afterlife pretty awesome.
https://www.destinationamerica.com/tv-shows/project-afterlife/

https://www.destinationamerica.com/tv-shows/project-afterlife/full-episodes/overdose-in-the-underworld-hustlers-redemption

Death is not the end.

(bolding and red by me)

Unless "we" think that an extremely small number of people make it into heaven, and I'm not convinced "we" think that, your comment is in direct contradiction to scripture, as is your assertion that "most are in such a better place":

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Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

Matthew 7:21-23
 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
-------------------

You are giving assurance of salvation (which leads to heaven) to those whom scripture gives no such assurance.  This is like telling someone that their Valkyrie will take them on a cross-country journey without looking at, or even asking them about, the condition their motorcycle, their riding proficiency, the route they are taking, their preparation for weather they will encounter, or how much money they have for fuel and other expenses.

I know that when someone passes, we want to comfort their survivors by assuring them that their departed loved one is in heaven waiting for them, and that they will be reunited.  The fact is, according to the One who is going to prepare a place for believers (John 14:1-3), most will enter the gate that leads to destruction, and few will enter the gate that leads to life.  By giving them false hope, we may be preventing them from seeking the true path to salvation, and thus encouraging them on their current path to destruction.

When I say this, I am assuredly not commenting on the eternal state of specific individuals, least of all the people John mentions in his recent thread.

[Robert]

I make no assurance of heaven that is between God and the individual and a work of the Spirit that confirms it on mens hearts. What person did I give false hope to and who would rely on my assurance and not the Spirit can you name anyone?

Most does not say all either, so who reading the post or questioning their salvation in the face of the inevitable would not question where they were going on a personal level, are they part of the most?

I find it legalistic banter especially when we dont know exactly which person will make it to say very few will make it to heaven when confronting a situation of solace since I am not teaching in the post. To me you might as well call into question the peoples salvation in the post, which it hints of what you did since you had to address it.
 
 Jesus was about compassion not being legalistic.  

Its not by head knowledge that we make it into heaven but by faith, legalism does not have faith, it is not a fruit of the Spirit either. It also doesn't posses love of fellow brothers either. Legalism can also be exchanged with religious a term that seeks to exclude instead of include MOST of the world.  

Tit 3:9  But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
Tit 3:10  Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,
Tit 3:11  knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

Hope and promise is what the Bible is about its what Jesus was about.

This kind of thing really burns me because by the church I was taught that sin is evil, you have sin in your life, Jesus hates sin. Also you have to conform to the bible and its laws,  so I thought that I was not good enough to accept the Lord. They focused on the rules instead of love and mercy.

Anyone convicted of who they are and in need of salvation or knowing where a loved one will go will feel the weight of sin when convicted by the Spirit. How about giving hope and love to them, they who may be thinking they are not good enough, will see that there may be a chance.

Jesus had compassion on the woman who came in and while at dinner washed His feet with her hair and He forgave Her sins without telling her any rules.

We come as we are and by the renewing of our minds by the Spirit in time as we learn we change from glory to glory and conform to the image and likeness of Christ.

This would have been better in a personal pm.

[The emperor has no clothes]

This would have been better in a personal pm.

I'm glad it wasn't. I find it interesting and informative. 

[Gryphon Rider]

I make no assurance of heaven that is between God and the individual and a work of the Spirit that confirms it on mens hearts. What person did I give false hope to and who would rely on my assurance and not the Spirit can you name anyone?

When you directly contradict Jesus and say most will get to heaven, you give assurance to most people, who think they are mostly good, and therefore destined for heaven.

Most does not say all either, so who reading the post or questioning their salvation in the face of the inevitable would not question where they were going on a personal level, are they part of the most?

I'm sorry, I can't follow what you are asking.

I find it legalistic banter especially when we dont know exactly which person will make it to say very few will make it to heaven when confronting a situation of solace since I am not teaching in the post.

If it's legalistic banter to say that few will make it to heaven, then you are accusing Jesus of legalism; they're His words that I've quoted.  I took my response to you outside of that context by starting a new topic.  Do you think that a "situation of solace" is an appropriate place to contradict Christ?

To me you might as well call into question the peoples salvation in the post, which it hints of what you did since you had to address it.

That's a red herring.  I wasn't questioning any individual's salvation, I was challenging your assertions, which directly contradict the Word of God, as I demonstrated.

...which it hints of what you did since you had to address it.

How can anyone communicate with you when you assume they mean the opposite of what they say?
 

Jesus was about compassion not being legalistic.

You seem to be confused about what legalism is.  Legalism is placing excessive importance in following the external requirements of the law, even creating and following new rules that exceed the requirements of the law, all the while ignoring the spirit and intent of the law, which is to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind, and to love your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:37-39).  What legalism is not is correcting a blatant and harmful error publicly asserted by someone claiming to be a follower of Christ.  It does not show compassion for the people reading this error to allow them to assume that it is the truth, especially when the issue concerns their eternal destiny.

Its not by head knowledge that we make it into heaven but by faith...

Faith starts with knowledge.  There has to be knowledge apprehended before that knowledge is believed, and faith is acting on that belief.  See Romans 10, Ephesians 2, and James 2.

...legalism does not have faith, it is not a fruit of the Spirit either. It also doesn't posses love of fellow brothers either. Legalism can also be exchanged with religious a term that seeks to exclude instead of include MOST of the world.

So, do you consider all discussions of matters of truth to be legalism?  Does truth not matter, to you?
I see you have a private definition of religious, making it synonymous with legalistic.  I was using it according to how dictionaries define it: of, relating to, or concerned with religion, with religion being defined as, belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatural power or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny.

Tit 3:9  But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

Do you believe the discussion of our eternal destiny to be unprofitable or worthless?

Tit 3:10  Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,
Tit 3:11  knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

Let's read a little earlier in Titus (1:9-10):
He [an overseer] must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers...

Hope and promise is what the Bible is about its what Jesus was about.

But that hope and promise (of eternal life) are only received by those who repent and believe.

This kind of thing really burns me because by the church I was taught that sin is evil, you have sin in your life, Jesus hates sin. Also you have to conform to the bible and its laws,  so I thought that I was not good enough to accept the Lord. They focused on the rules instead of love and mercy.

I think you may have swung your pendulum to the other extreme.  Yes, God is love and merciful, but He is also truth and righteous and just, and I would submit that overarching all His other attributes is His holiness.  Yes, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8 ).  What then?  Are we to sin because we are not under law, but under grace?  Do we have carte blanche to say things that contradict God's Word? By no means! (See Romans 6.)

Anyone convicted of who they are and in need of salvation or knowing where a loved one will go will feel the weight of sin when convicted by the Spirit. How about giving hope and love to them, they who may be thinking they are not good enough, will see that there may be a chance.

Absolutely, but their hope is not that "most" will enter heaven, a false hope, but rather that they can abandon all that they are in order to be made new in the image of Christ, by the power of God, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  But few are willing to deny themselves to follow Him.

Jesus had compassion on the woman who came in and while at dinner washed His feet with her hair and He forgave Her sins without telling her any rules.

Yes, He saw the state of her heart: repentance and submission to Him, her Lord and Saviour.

We come as we are and by the renewing of our minds by the Spirit in time as we learn we change from glory to glory and conform to the image and likeness of Christ.

Amen

This would have been better in a personal pm.

You have publicly associated yourself with the name of Christ.  You made your statements in a public forum.  Others have read them and may have believed them.  I'd rather they know what Christ actually says about these things.  That being said, I will endeavor to take things up with you privately before disagreeing with you publicly, depending on the context and the nature of the disagreement.

[Robert]

I also wanted to comment on Matthew 7:21-23, those mentioned in the passage were more than likely believers and they did not make heaven, so who makes heaven?

Mat 19:26  And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Php 2:12  So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

The Holy Spirit the gift from God will confirm and agree with our own spirits that we are indeed going to heaven and have our names written in the Lambs book of life. Its up to each man to ask God and be assured that he knows that he knows that he knows he will make heaven and his name is in the Lambs book of life.

In fact I will go one step farther if you dont have the Holy Spirit then are you going to heaven?

Eph 4:30  Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

It takes a work of the Spirit to move men to be concerned about their days here on earth. Basing salvation on any mans assurance is dangerous. Basing your salvation on any mans teaching is dangerous. Basing your salvation on works is dangerous, If you are so deceived as to think you will make heaven by good works, mans word, prayers, or anything else other than God confirming it to you by your relationship with Him,then you need the help of the Father.

The Pharisees and Sadducee shut heaven off to the common man by quoting rules, lets get them to think  about heaven and salvation first and know that its possible then worry about the rules and regs that will get them there. I do not mean misleading them or changing the words of Jesus, but give them hope. Since it can be a daunting task to think of their day. 

Quote
Most does not say all either, so who reading the post or questioning their salvation in the face of the inevitable would not question where they were going on a personal level, are they part of the most?
I'm sorry, I can't follow what you are asking.

So if I dont say few are going to heaven and say most, wouldn't it be that any person would question are they part of the most? It still leaves the question is it me who is going to heaven. That is the real fear behind few are going to heaven.

Quote
Its not by head knowledge that we make it into heaven but by faith...
Faith starts with knowledge.  There has to be knowledge apprehended before that knowledge is believed, and faith is acting on that belief.  See Romans 10, Ephesians 2, and James 2.

Rom 12:3  For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Yes knowledge that the Holy Spirit reveals to us as we walk from glory to glory since no man can know the things of God without the regenerated mind to know. Its also to certain levels also as we go we are changed and other truths are revealed to us and the Lord does a work in us. But just knowing does not accomplish the obedience to the Lord that will get you into heaven.

God said come as little children

Mat 12:50  "For whoever DOES the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

Get them saved, filled with the spirit and develop a relationship with God then worry about teaching them the correct ways and allow each mans heart to look and yearn for heaven.

Mat 18:3  and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4  "Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5  "And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me;
Mat 18:6  but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

[1NorthRyder]

Hi guys good discussion, and I don't think there is anything wrong with having it on this forum. Keep in mind that different folks have different view points. You are both providing yours and backing them up with the scriptures. I think this discussion is good because I am sure that there are some on this site that would not likely be exposed to a discussion of this nature in the normal course of the day. The two of you may be having a discussion but at the same time you are witnessing to those who may not be familiar with the scriptures. For those that aren't sure about what the two of you are discussing I would recommend reading the bible for yourself.  My suggestion would be to start with the Gospel of John. There is nothing wrong with a different point of view as long as we don't start a war over it.
My own believe is that if you do not know Christ and have not asked him come into your life regardless of how good you are you are not going to heaven. I get that others do not believe this and can only encourage them to read the Word of God. Accepting Christ is a personal decision that cannot be forced on anyone. A lot of my working career was spent building churches of many different denominations and beliefs. As you can imagine there were many discussions about different view points. I learned that rather than trying to force a different belief on someone simply put that different view point out there and ultimately they will have to make the decision for themselves. Keep up the discussion, it's worth reading if for know other reason than you are getting the scriptures out there.

[hubcapsc]

Keep up the discussion

But not argument...

Accept anyone who is weak in faith, but don’t argue about doubtful issues...
Whoever serves Christ in this way is acceptable to God...
Romans 14

Heaven is abstract to me, I don't think about it much. I claim that I
need Jesus (and have Jesus) in my life, but the only ones who know that
for sure are me and Jesus. I seek Jesus in the Bible, and Romans 14 became
one of the memorable-to-me places that I found Him when I was searching
for explicit statements about how to serve Him.

I guess most of you have seen paintings of Jesus embracing someone as
they enter Heaven. I'm kind of expecting to get socked in the stomach on
the way in... 

-Mike "Romans 14 isn't about food"

[Robert]

Hi guys good discussion, and I don't think there is anything wrong with having it on this forum. Keep in mind that different folks have different view points. You are both providing yours and backing them up with the scriptures. I think this discussion is good because I am sure that there are some on this site that would not likely be exposed to a discussion of this nature in the normal course of the day. The two of you may be having a discussion but at the same time you are witnessing to those who may not be familiar with the scriptures. For those that aren't sure about what the two of you are discussing I would recommend reading the bible for yourself.  My suggestion would be to start with the Gospel of John. There is nothing wrong with a different point of view as long as we don't start a war over it.
My own believe is that if you do not know Christ and have not asked him come into your life regardless of how good you are you are not going to heaven. I get that others do not believe this and can only encourage them to read the Word of God. Accepting Christ is a personal decision that cannot be forced on anyone. A lot of my working career was spent building churches of many different denominations and beliefs. As you can imagine there were many discussions about different view points. I learned that rather than trying to force a different belief on someone simply put that different view point out there and ultimately they will have to make the decision for themselves. Keep up the discussion, it's worth reading if for know other reason than you are getting the scriptures out there.

All good points and I agree

Gryphon thanks for questioning, maybe someone needed to hear this. This was the right place for this

I can tell you that one of the most awesome experiences in life is to know God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. As for making heaven we all will stand in front of the throne of judgement and will answer for our lives which are a gift from God. We are eternal spirits we dont die but where we go is the question.

I agree with your definition of legalism but

By calling me out on one point that you did not understand my intent you have judged me to be in error. I consider this legalism since The point I made was consistent with the intent and purpose that Jesus spoke of and the Bible confers. Which was to question personal salvation, we don't know the amount of who will be saved and which group you are part of is still in question (the important part). I would like to know by conferring a larger group for salvation did I do it for malice or not knowing or for compassion to someone suffering.   

I applaud your devotion to the word correctly spoken and sorry you did not understand and hope that you now do and it changes your mind on this.

[Willow]

I too, like the G Rider, am very hesitant to tell a grieving person that their loved one is in a better place.  We don't know.  God knows.

Robert, it appears that you did say exactly what the Gryphon Rider addressed.  I have strong respect for one who confronted with an error will simply say, "I was wrong," rather than accuse the corrector of error in legalism.

...
After much research and prayer I have confident that most are in such a better place and in no pain. The ways people go are shocking but in the twinkling of an eye they are at peace and joy.
...

Legalism.  I would be considered by most as a legalist, certainly so by most Calvinists.  I fully accept that salvation and the transformation of one's life is provided solely by grace.  One who continues to intentionally sin, though, is demonstrating that the transformation has not taken place.  I have witnessed repeatedly that your interpretation and application of the Scripture is not the same as mine.  I'm okay with that.  Do I think you are right?  I couldn't.  That would mean that I'm wrong and I'm certain that's not the case.  

As to legalism, I believe that after conversion the believer is called to live a life consistent with the rules.  I don't believe that the occasional error results in a loss of salvation but I do strongly believe that one's repeatedly doing what he knows is wrong is evidence that he is not living within the bounds of salvation.  I find Jesus, during His earthly ministry, expressed that with which I agree.  

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. (Matt 23:23)

"These things you should have done," supports living by the rules.  The error of the Pharisees was not their legalism.  It was the inconsistency of their legalistic behavior with their lack of foundation or follow through of love and service not only for the Lord but also for their fellow man.

We have in our culture put a heavy emphasis upon "accepting" Christ.  That leaves us with an impression that we are adding Christ's guidance to our existing lives.  We miss the remaining portion of what we are to do.  The accepting is actually accepting the lordship of Jesus over our lives.  It is really more like surrender than accepting.

Robert, I think the Lord is working in your life and I hope you are growing day by day as a result.  I do now and then cringe at some things you say while loudly proclaiming your representation of Christianity.    

[3fan4life]

For me the defining verse for salvation is John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

To me there is no other requirement to salvation other than to believe in Jesus Christ as your savior.

Though they aren't quoted nearly as often John 3:17-19 confirm this:

17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Certainly, there are other requirements to being a good and faithful follower of Christ. But I do not see additional requirements to receive salvation.

The example of the Thief on the cross validates this:

Luke 23:39-43 (NKJV)

39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”


This man had done nothing other than profess his belief in Christ and ask Him to remember him.

And in verse 43 Jesus promises him a place in Heaven.


To me the illustration of the narrow gate is in reference to the number of people who NEVER accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

For many more people reject Him rather than receive Him.

As for those that Jesus will tell to go away, those are people who profess Him falsely. (This can be an entire Bible study in itself).

[Robert]

Had an experience similar to yours with Donna, when my wife's father passed. I really loved this man although we did not speak that much. One tough sob but had a heart of gold and a awesome businessman. Loved his family took care of them. I walked in to see him one last time and left after a short visit. Was a bit sad and upset and all of sudden about an hour later and without explanation I started to be really happy. It didn't last long but I knew he made it and was told later it was the time of his passing.

 I know that God is in control and I know more make it into heaven than we think. But when we loose here one so close here on earth it still hurts. I always say to myself they are away maybe on vacation and I will see them one day. For me it seems to take some of the sting out.

After much research and prayer I have confident that most are in such a better place and in no pain. The ways people go are shocking but in the twinkling of an eye they are at peace and joy.
=========================================================================
This is my post that I cut and paste here, I did not directly state that any person made it into heaven only that most make it.

I was worried that my wifes father would not make it into heaven, and John and I had a similar restlessness then peace about the death of these people we cared about.

I said most because personally know many people and the deeds and stories that we hear from them are in human terms shocking and wouldn't think that they would make into heaven. Yet my father in law I used as an example and even the stories on the near death experiences, I see God warning about where they were going to go. So only God really knows who does make it into heaven.

Let me ask a question say a person sins his whole life in  terrible ways but on his death bed makes a profession of faith in the Lord, will he make heaven?
 
Did I give anyone in the story the hope of salvation and heaven that was not there?

Did I proclaim anything other than most will make it?

Would I point out to someone else a small change if it were for comfort, I would not.

To me compassion when someone is hurting is important and speaking to someone who is a christian and knows God gives a bit of freedom knowing who I am talking to. I really was not talking or consoling anyone else even though this is a public forum. In Johns story Donna was John spiritual mentor, the man was an usher and he is a christian.

We don't know all things of the spirit and may be surprised to find out that knowledge and our understanding of the bible is so limited and my experience and others find out that love trumps being strictly correct about certain things.

When I got saved I was a mess like most people but God called me His own before I was on the straight and narrow. He destined me to be saved and worked with me to change so why do I want to take hope away from anyone?

God showed me hope and mercy that is my Father, that is the Father I know. If you looked at me before you would have said there is no hope, and God called me and Loved me that way even when the church and man did not. I was rejected and shamed by the church and man so if I know the love and salvation of my Father and know that all things are possible why would I not want to share this with those hurting and not worry at one word spoken in comfort.

I know He can do this for anyone and everyone that chooses to accept the Lord. But there are so many blessings that the Lord can bestow on people that most never teach about either.

[Gryphon Rider]

I also wanted to comment on Matthew 7:21-23, those mentioned in the passage were more than likely believers and they did not make heaven, so who makes heaven?

How can you possibly say that they were more than likely believers?  Christ will say to them, "I never knew you."

In fact I will go one step farther if you dont have the Holy Spirit then are you going to heaven?

There is no such thing as salvation without having the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit indwells you the moment you are converted.  Romans 8:9 says, "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

Eph 4:30  Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Verses 17-29 preceding this one describe many things that grieve the Holy Spirit.  Or is your point about the Spirit sealing us for the day of redemption, confirming that those who are truly saved are sealed in their salvation, and thus will never be told, "I never knew you"?  If so, I agree.  Verse 28 is especially applicable to our discussion.

The Holy Spirit the gift from God will confirm and agree with our own spirits that we are indeed going to heaven and have our names written in the Lambs book of life. Its up to each man to ask God and be assured that he knows that he knows that he knows he will make heaven and his name is in the Lambs book of life. ... It takes a work of the Spirit to move men to be concerned about their days here on earth. Basing salvation on any mans assurance is dangerous. Basing your salvation on any mans teaching is dangerous. Basing your salvation on works is dangerous, If you are so deceived as to think you will make heaven by good works, mans word, prayers, or anything else other than God confirming it to you by your relationship with Him,then you need the help of the Father.

Actually, John's first epistle was written specifically to give assurance of salvation.  1 John 5:13:  "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life."  Here is an excellent article that deals with the signs of genuine saving faith:  https://www.gotquestions.org/signs-saving-faith.html

The Pharisees and Sadducee shut heaven off to the common man by quoting rules, lets get them to think  about heaven and salvation first and know that its possible then worry about the rules and regs that will get them there. I do not mean misleading them or changing the words of Jesus, but give them hope. Since it can be a daunting task to think of their day.

Any hope that contradicts Christ is false hope.

Quote
Most does not say all either, so who reading the post or questioning their salvation in the face of the inevitable would not question where they were going on a personal level, are they part of the most?
I'm sorry, I can't follow what you are asking.

So if I dont say few are going to heaven and say most, wouldn't it be that any person would question are they part of the most? It still leaves the question is it me who is going to heaven. That is the real fear behind few are going to heaven.

An excellent book that every Christian with the opportunity to do so should read, is Holiness by J.C. Ryle.  Copyright is long expired (written in 1879), and it can be downloaded here.  It can also be purchased in hard copy, produced by several different publishers.  In chapter X, page 110 in the pdf version available through the link I provided, Ryle says,

But God forbid that I should ever keep back from mortal man that Scripture reveals a hell as well as heaven, and that the Gospel teaches that men may be lost as well as saved. The watchman who keeps silent when he sees a fire, is guilty of gross neglect - the doctor who tells us we are getting well when we are dying, is a false friend; and the minister who keeps back hell from his people in his sermons is neither a faithful nor a charitable man.
     Where is the charity of keeping back any portion of God’s truth? He is the kindest friend who tells me the whole extent of my danger. Where is the use of hiding the future from the impenitent and the ungodly? Surely it is like helping the devil, if we do not tell them plainly that “the soul that sinneth shall surely die.” Who knows but the wretched carelessness of many baptized persons arises from this, that they have never been told plainly of hell? Who can tell but thousands might be converted, if ministers would urge them more faithfully to flee from the wrath to come? Verily, I fear we are many of us guilty in this matter: there is a morbid tenderness amongst us which is not the tenderness of Christ. We have spoken of mercy, but not of judgment; we have preached many sermons about heaven, but few about hell: we have been carried away by the wretched fear of being thought “low, vulgar and fanatical.” We have forgotten that He who judgeth us is the Lord, and that the man who teaches the same doctrine that Christ taught cannot be wrong.

Telling anyone, in any situation, that "most" will be saved is a "morbid consolation".

Get them saved, filled with the spirit and develop a relationship with God then worry about teaching them the correct ways and allow each mans heart to look and yearn for heaven.

Salvation requires first that the truth be preached to them (Romans 10:14).  They need to apprehend the truth before the truth can set them free (John 8:31-32).  That includes understanding their true condition without Christ.

Mat 18:3  and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4  "Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5  "And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me;
Mat 18:6  but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

So, in what way do you think we are to become like children?

[Gryphon Rider]

For me the defining verse for salvation is John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

To me there is no other requirement to salvation other than to believe in Jesus Christ as your savior.

Though they aren't quoted nearly as often John 3:17-19 confirm this:

17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Certainly, there are other requirements to being a good and faithful follower of Christ. But I do not see additional requirements to receive salvation.

The example of the Thief on the cross validates this:

Luke 23:39-43 (NKJV)

39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”


This man had done nothing other than profess his belief in Christ and ask Him to remember him.

And in verse 43 Jesus promises him a place in Heaven.


To me the illustration of the narrow gate is in reference to the number of people who NEVER accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

For many more people reject Him rather than receive Him.

As for those that Jesus will tell to go away, those are people who profess Him falsely. (This can be an entire Bible study in itself).

The question is, what is meant when one says he believes in Jesus Christ as his saviour?  The answer to this question determines whether he truly believes.

In my reply #11 to Robert, above, I recommended the book, Holiness by J.C. Ryle.  Chapter XI, Christ's Greatest Trophy, is an excellent essay addressing Christ's interaction with those crucified on either side of Him.  Very insightful.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Note to self ; NEVER debate religion with GR. It will be an ass whooping. Kevin, I appreciate how you break down scripture into layman's terms. It makes it so much more understandable. I don't know how many times I've read scripture over and over to still not get it. Thanks 

[Robert]

quoteI also wanted to comment on Matthew 7:21-23, those mentioned in the passage were more than likely believers and they did not make heaven, so who makes heaven?
How can you possibly say that they were more than likely believers?  Christ will say to them, "I never knew you."


Mat 7:21  "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Mat 7:22  "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

So in this verse above you believe non believers call on the name of the Lord and prophesy in His name, Or calls Lord, Lord. We see this today a double minded man or supposed Christians professing the faith but are truly not.


quoteThere is no such thing as salvation without having the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit indwells you the moment you are converted.  Romans 8:9 says, "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

The church teaches if you believe in and confess the name of the Lord you will be saved. No mention of the Holy Spirit and the work He does is usually mentioned. If you believe that the Holy Spirit indwells when you accept the Lord then you need to show scripture for that since there is enough scripture to support the baptism of the Holy Spirit after salvation. In fact Jesus our example was baptized in the Holy Spirit after He was baptized in the Jordon river. The Apostles received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost and both their ministries started after this event.

Luk 11:13  "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"

Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

So the Holy Spirit is a gift and not given at the time of salvation. He is also the one that raised Jesus from the dead and the one that actually worked through Jesus performing miracles since Jesus was fully man and divested Himself of His power.  He is also given as a seal a confirmation for those who are the Lords. So you might say are those truly the Lords without the baptism of the Holy Spirit. He is also the one that was around in the Old Testament also the one that performs miracles in those that are believers and have the baptism of the Holy Spirit today.
He is the Spirit of Truth
He is the one that spoke through the Apostles when they answered in court
He is the one that was with the old testament prophets but because of the New Convent when God says I will write my laws on their hearts that is the Holy Spirit also that reminds us not only of God love but of the miracles He has done for us
He is the one that interprets the bible as we read
He is the one that wrote the bible through men
He is the one who leads us to salvation but does not indwell till we are baptized in the Spirit.

1Co 12:3  Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Jn 2:27  But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.

Rom 8:9  But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)


quoteGet them saved, filled with the spirit and develop a relationship with God then worry about teaching them the correct ways and allow each mans heart to look and yearn for heaven.
Salvation requires first that the truth be preached to them (Romans 10:14).  They need to apprehend the truth before the truth can set them free (John 8:31-32).  That includes understanding their true condition without Christ.


Joh 16:7  "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
Joh 16:8  "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
Joh 16:9  concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
Joh 16:10  and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
Joh 16:11  and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
Joh 16:12  "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13  "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
Joh 16:14  "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
Joh 16:15  "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

[3fan4life]

For me the defining verse for salvation is John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

To me there is no other requirement to salvation other than to believe in Jesus Christ as your savior.

Though they aren't quoted nearly as often John 3:17-19 confirm this:

17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Certainly, there are other requirements to being a good and faithful follower of Christ. But I do not see additional requirements to receive salvation.

The example of the Thief on the cross validates this:

Luke 23:39-43 (NKJV)

39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”


This man had done nothing other than profess his belief in Christ and ask Him to remember him.

And in verse 43 Jesus promises him a place in Heaven.


To me the illustration of the narrow gate is in reference to the number of people who NEVER accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

For many more people reject Him rather than receive Him.

As for those that Jesus will tell to go away, those are people who profess Him falsely. (This can be an entire Bible study in itself).

The question is, what is meant when one says he believes in Jesus Christ as his saviour?  The answer to this question determines whether he truly believes.

In my reply #11 to Robert, above, I recommended the book, Holiness by J.C. Ryle.  Chapter XI, Christ's Greatest Trophy, is an excellent essay addressing Christ's interaction with those crucified on either side of Him.  Very insightful.

I haven't read the entire book yet but in the author's introduction I found a paragraph that agrees with my belief:

As to the phrase “holiness by faith,” I find it nowhere in the New Testament. Without controversy, in the
matter of our justification before God, faith in Christ is the one thing needful. All that simply believe are
justified. Righteousness is imputed “to him that worketh not but believeth.” (Rom. iv. 5.) It is thoroughly
Scriptural and right to say “faith alone justifies.” But it is not equally Scriptural and right so say “faith
alone sanctifies.” The saying requires very large qualification. Let one fact suffice. We are frequently told
that a man is “justified by faith without the deeds of the law,” by St. Paul. But not once are we told that
we are “sanctified by faith without the deeds of the law.” On the contrary, we are expressly told by St.
James that the faith whereby we are visibly and demonstratively justified before man, is a faith which “if it
hath not works is dead, being alone.” [1] (James ii. 17.) I may be told, in reply, that no one of course
means to disparage “works” as an essential part of a holy life. It would be well, however, to make this
more plain than many seem to make it in these days.

Too many times I think that Christians make Salvation "Too Complicated".

When they do so they do a great disservice to themselves, Non Believers and to Jesus Christ.

If salvation itself were a complicated multi step process then Jesus would've given us a step by step guide.

He would not risk wasting His sacrifice because we "missed" a step.


What is complicated is being a good and faithful follower of Christ.

Which is what the book that you have referenced addresses.

James 2 can and has been very confusing for many:

Faith Without Works Is Dead James 2:14-17 NKJV

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James is not addressing the issue of Salvation here.

He is not saying that we obtain salvation by good works, he is saying that salvation will produce good works.

And if we are following Christ we should be doing good works.


The thing is that not everyone is in the same place in their Christian walk.

Some are ready to feast on the "meat" and others are still on the "milk".

Being a follower of Christ is a growth process and different people grow at different rates.

We cannot expect the "new" follower to "suddenly" know how to act.

That would be equivilent to expecting a Kindergartner to know everything that a High School Senior does.


From the time that we accept Christ we spend the rest of our lives trying to be like Him.

The key word there is trying.

Christ was perfect, we are not.

Paul tells us that "ALL" have fallen short.

Not only have we all fallen short, we do so daily.

Paul also tells us that, "The wages of sin are death".

We have all sinned and we do so daily.

There is nothing that we can do to "earn" salvation.

Salvation is a gift that Jesus Christ bought for us with His crucifixtion on the cross.


We should never point to someone else and say, "I'm a better Christian than him."

It is perfectly ok though to point to someone and say, "He is a better Christian than me."

We should always strive to be better.

We should look up to those who are farther along in their walk than us and help those who aren't.


Some people progress so slowly in their walk that to others they seem to be stagnant, some do stagnate and some even backslide.

It is very dangerous indeed if these people are told that their salvation was invalid.

Who are we to judge them and condemn them to Hell?   

Instead, we should bear and share their burdens as Paul tells us:

Galatians 6:1-2 (NKJV)

6 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

It is ok to tell a brother or sister in Christ that they are falling short in their Christian walk and help them to do a better job of following Christ.

It is not ok to question their salvation.

If we do nothing more than rebuke them and question their salvation, then weare doing exactly what James warns against in James 2:15-17.