walmart shooting

[cookiedough]

gee whiz, what is next?

Makes me more and more want to do concealed carry, but will not do you any good if you are the first one shot......

[Gavin_Sons]

This is exactly the reason i carry every day. Never know what crazy will try to kill you.

[old2soon]

In reply to another post here I had stated then-you only ever need a pistol when you Only Ever NEED a pistol. Better to have it and Not need it than to Not have and then find out you do in Fact NEED it. I also asked after that Very Recent N Y C TERRORIST ATTACK had there been one responsible armed citizen there could that turd have been stopped Before 8 Innocent Bystanders had been killed? Here in Missouri I have Legal C C W which after jumping thru the state mandated hoops so I Can carry concealed legally. I believe it was the first of this year open carry here does Not require a permit. I personally do Not open carry. Don't wanna be the first target! RIDE SAFE.

[MarkT]

I have decided to open carry when riding out of my home area.  Don't need my neighbors / merchants to know I carry and have it be their focus, or be the target of a perp.  But on the road - it tends to discourage road rage which has become a real problem here. On one of the first rides I open carried this summer - a road rager followed us into a gas station to confront / make trouble.  I stood so it was in his plain view. He saw the gun - and changed his mind. And I was confidant there was little/no possibility of a "brandishing" charge.  A remaining concern - one of the group riders can't seem to stop fixating on my gun. Like a liberal; I thought he wasn't but now maybe not.  He mentions it more than everybody else combined.  Get over it - it's NOYB and as you can see it doesn't warp my mindset as it does yours - and you have never seen me when I was unarmed - for 14 years now.  It's just always been concealed.  FYI - if you see me w/o my pants - I might be unarmed.  Otherwise - guaranteed 1 or 2 .357's are on my person.

[¿spoom]

In reply to another post here I had stated then-you only ever need a pistol when you Only Ever NEED a pistol. Better to have it and Not need it than to Not have and then find out you do in Fact NEED it. I also asked after that Very Recent N Y C TERRORIST ATTACK had there been one responsible armed citizen there could that turd have been stopped Before 8 Innocent Bystanders had been killed? Here in Missouri I have Legal C C W which after jumping thru the state mandated hoops so I Can carry concealed legally. I believe it was the first of this year open carry here does Not require a permit. I personally do Not open carry. Don't wanna be the first target! RIDE SAFE.

In the case of the guy mowing down NYC bicycles, it's very doubtful a dozen folks carrying would have made any difference. In addition to the very short time duration of the event and a moving target behind a windshield, there's the bigger problem of how much time a prudent person would take to try and ascertain wth was happening and if a weapon was even an option. Is it the driver having a medical emergency? Drunk? (not as an excuse for the driver, but I don't remember anything about shooting drunk drivers being covered in my CCW course) Were the bikes carrying fleeing terrorists being mowed down because the truck was commandeered by a cop after they tossed grenades at people in Times Square? Would the truck have already been over the bikes by the time you could pull your weapon even if you did draw it the second you heard crashing/crunching and decided to fire away with NO thought? No additional persons were harmed after he exited the truck, so carrying civilians had no additional persons to save, and in the confusion could have easily been shot at by LEOs arriving on the scene and seeing a person(s) with a handgun. Heck, as a bearded long hair, I'd be a prime suspect.
Just like some MC accidents where they turn left in front of you, there's a point where there is nothing you can do. That said, all we can do is carry for the incidents where we CAN make a difference. I like the saying that a gun is like a parachute-if you ever need one, it's too late to shop for one.

[¿spoom]

I have decided to open carry when riding out of my home area.  Don't need my neighbors / merchants to know I carry and have it be their focus, or be the target of a perp.  But on the road - it tends to discourage road rage which has become a real problem here. On one of the first rides I open carried this summer - a road rager followed us into a gas station to confront / make trouble.  I stood so it was in his plain view. He saw the gun - and changed his mind. And I was confidant there was little/no possibility of a "brandishing" charge.  A remaining concern - one of the group riders can't seem to stop fixating on my gun. Like a liberal; I thought he wasn't but now maybe not.  He mentions it more than everybody else combined.  Get over it - it's NOYB and as you can see it doesn't warp my mindset as it does yours - and you have never seen me when I was unarmed - for 14 years now.  It's just always been concealed.  FYI - if you see me w/o my pants - I might be unarmed.  Otherwise - guaranteed 1 or 2 .357's are on my person.

Hey old timer, If I see you without your pants I'll assume;
a) Carthage Campus Security is after you.
b) You're carrying my old 2-shot .22mag derringer and it smells bad.
c) both of the above ☺

[MarkT]

I have decided to open carry when riding out of my home area.  Don't need my neighbors / merchants to know I carry and have it be their focus, or be the target of a perp.  But on the road - it tends to discourage road rage which has become a real problem here. On one of the first rides I open carried this summer - a road rager followed us into a gas station to confront / make trouble.  I stood so it was in his plain view. He saw the gun - and changed his mind. And I was confidant there was little/no possibility of a "brandishing" charge.  A remaining concern - one of the group riders can't seem to stop fixating on my gun. Like a liberal; I thought he wasn't but now maybe not.  He mentions it more than everybody else combined.  Get over it - it's NOYB and as you can see it doesn't warp my mindset as it does yours - and you have never seen me when I was unarmed - for 14 years now.  It's just always been concealed.  FYI - if you see me w/o my pants - I might be unarmed.  Otherwise - guaranteed 1 or 2 .357's are on my person.

Hey old timer, If I see you without your pants I'll assume;
a) Carthage Campus Security is after you.
b) You're carrying my old 2-shot .22mag derringer and it smells bad.
c) both of the above ☺

Congratulations.  This is the FIRST time I've been called that.  And my hair is still blond, but getting lighter.  Come to think of it, a couple years back a LEO put "white" on the ticket.  But seriously, if you look at it, it's still blond.  In the summer, lightened by the sun, but truly not "white".  OTOH I think I don't look so fat, but it seems folks are using carnival mirrors in their houses now, and Micky-D's has re-bolted the chairs closer to the tables now so the handicapped tables get more of my use.

BTW.  How did you know I did a semester at Carthage College in Kenosha?  Also I have my own Derringers, thank you.  In .45LC/.410 shot and .357mag.

[cookiedough]

I have decided to open carry when riding out of my home area.  Don't need my neighbors / merchants to know I carry and have it be their focus, or be the target of a perp.  But on the road - it tends to discourage road rage which has become a real problem here. On one of the first rides I open carried this summer - a road rager followed us into a gas station to confront / make trouble.  I stood so it was in his plain view. He saw the gun - and changed his mind. And I was confidant there was little/no possibility of a "brandishing" charge.  A remaining concern - one of the group riders can't seem to stop fixating on my gun. Like a liberal; I thought he wasn't but now maybe not.  He mentions it more than everybody else combined.  Get over it - it's NOYB and as you can see it doesn't warp my mindset as it does yours - and you have never seen me when I was unarmed - for 14 years now.  It's just always been concealed.  FYI - if you see me w/o my pants - I might be unarmed.  Otherwise - guaranteed 1 or 2 .357's are on my person.

Hey old timer, If I see you without your pants I'll assume;
a) Carthage Campus Security is after you.
b) You're carrying my old 2-shot .22mag derringer and it smells bad.
c) both of the above ☺

Congratulations.  This is the FIRST time I've been called that.  And my hair is still blond, but getting lighter.  Come to think of it, a couple years back a LEO put "white" on the ticket.  But seriously, if you look at it, it's still blond.  In the summer, lightened by the sun, but truly not "white".  OTOH I think I don't look so fat, but it seems folks are using carnival mirrors in their houses now, and Micky-D's has re-bolted the chairs closer to the tables now so the handicapped tables get more of my use.

BTW.  How did you know I did a semester at Carthage College in Kenosha?  Also I have my own Derringers, thank you.  In .45LC/.410 shot and .357mag.

Now I know why from years past being in Kenosha-Racine area you had inclinations way back then to do concealed carrying...

Yah,  that NYC truck terrorism attack doubt much could have been done to stop the terrosist since all happened so quickly but say at Walmart,  someone with a concealed carry could have stopped possibly some deaths from occurring? 

Even the workforce now makes me having to look behind me to see who is there bunch of goofballs out there cannot be trusted.  Too bad almost every workplace has signs posted NO guns allowed.  My guess is most employers would fire you on the spot if carrying even if it saved some lives from occurring? 

[¿spoom]

[/quote]

Now I know why from years past being in Kenosha-Racine area you had inclinations way back then to do concealed carrying...

Yah,  that NYC truck terrorism attack doubt much could have been done to stop the terrosist since all happened so quickly but say at Walmart,  someone with a concealed carry could have stopped possibly some deaths from occurring? 

Even the workforce now makes me having to look behind me to see who is there bunch of goofballs out there cannot be trusted.  Too bad almost every workplace has signs posted NO guns allowed.  My guess is most employers would fire you on the spot if carrying even if it saved some lives from occurring? 
[/quote] Yup, carried all my life, even all the years WI denied me my right to do so. The passage of CC just allowed me to make better choices on caliber and device. 

[¿spoom]

I have decided to open carry when riding out of my home area.  Don't need my neighbors / merchants to know I carry and have it be their focus, or be the target of a perp.  But on the road - it tends to discourage road rage which has become a real problem here. On one of the first rides I open carried this summer - a road rager followed us into a gas station to confront / make trouble.  I stood so it was in his plain view. He saw the gun - and changed his mind. And I was confidant there was little/no possibility of a "brandishing" charge.  A remaining concern - one of the group riders can't seem to stop fixating on my gun. Like a liberal; I thought he wasn't but now maybe not.  He mentions it more than everybody else combined.  Get over it - it's NOYB and as you can see it doesn't warp my mindset as it does yours - and you have never seen me when I was unarmed - for 14 years now.  It's just always been concealed.  FYI - if you see me w/o my pants - I might be unarmed.  Otherwise - guaranteed 1 or 2 .357's are on my person.

Hey old timer, If I see you without your pants I'll assume;
a) Carthage Campus Security is after you.
b) You're carrying my old 2-shot .22mag derringer and it smells bad.
c) both of the above ☺

Congratulations.  This is the FIRST time I've been called that.  And my hair is still blond, but getting lighter.  Come to think of it, a couple years back a LEO put "white" on the ticket.  But seriously, if you look at it, it's still blond.  In the summer, lightened by the sun, but truly not "white".  OTOH I think I don't look so fat, but it seems folks are using carnival mirrors in their houses now, and Micky-D's has re-bolted the chairs closer to the tables now so the handicapped tables get more of my use.

BTW.  How did you know I did a semester at Carthage College in Kenosha?  Also I have my own Derringers, thank you.  In .45LC/.410 shot and .357mag.

OMG, feel like Rip Van Winkle, guess I HAVE been gone a while! It's me-Glenn, Woody's, etc? At the first Inzane (hair still light brown then)I was the guy on the black Std. At the second one, you and I & Marylou and Feweez & Andie shared a table for dinner under the big tent and watched folks fret about a light rain waterspotting the CLEAN bikes? You told me about Carthage over dinner when I said I was from K-town during initial small talk.
that was maybe 12 years ago this is a more current photo

[¿spoom]

Mark, you've been around long enough where you MUST remember this one?

[Rams]

Just watching the nightly news, it was reported that video of the shooting caught several folks in the store who pulled their concealed carry weapons.   But, the only shots fired were by the accused.

I'm at a loss for words here.    I find it beyond my understanding why no one carrying shot this jerk when he started shooting innocent shoppers.   I haven't seen the video, just that the Sheriff has reported what was on the video.   Maybe they weren't in a position to do anything, I don't know but, I most surely would like to know why someone didn't take this guy out.    I consider this part of a concealed carry responsibility.   

No, I don't currently own a weapon, the opportunity came around to make a nice profit on my last one.     Shots fired, time to do something about it IMHO.   No, I'm no hero but, I'm not gonna just stand there and let others get killed.   

I have friends who are LEOs and Fire Fighters,  when others are running away from danger, they head toward it.   

[MarkT]

HEY, why censor my butt?  Used to be pretty trim.

¿spoom, Sheez you have a good memory.  I've gone beyond CRS and graduated to CRAFT.  Around here, only the wife can remember crap that happened eons ago and hold it against me.  I have to write everything down then forget where I put it.  Or that I wrote ANYTHING down. Or why.

I wasn't going to admit it, but the last 14 years is only the LEGAL part of my concealed carry.  And yeah, Wisconsin's backwards laws didn't affect my carry much when I came to visit family.  Just made me buy better holsters, smaller guns, and make sure I didn't print.  Strongly subscribe to "better judged by 12 than carried by 6."  My FIL is a flaming liberal snowflake - my carry is an unbroached subject with him - and the wife usually wants to stay with them. The MIL is the classic MIL - their SIL can do no good - you know what I mean.  Do ya think they will appreciate it when I save their bacon from a mugger when we're out and about?  Don't hold your breath I'm not.  Frankly I'd rather stay in a tent and last time I did.

To this day I make it a point to boycott Illinois - I cross into WI at Dubuque when I visit.

Now I have a S&W .500mag.  2 1/2 times more powerful than Dirty Harry's .44mag. And a Galco Kodiak Hunter chest rig to carry it. Eclipses the .44mag Super Blackhawk.  Now just to muster up the balls to actually IN YOUR LIBERAL FACE strap it on.  I can just imagine if I actually USED it in say the Walmart situation, how the opposing attorneys would cut me to ribbons in court.  Oh well, THAT can't happen - at least in Walmart.  I NEVER shop there.  Won't support the Evil Empire.  But the .500 is not for carry or home defense - it's for fun at the range and hunting.  Way too powerful to be used against perps and maybe even hunting.  Ruin a lot of meat.

BTW - my preferred carries are two S&W J-frame .357mag revolvers with Crimson Trace green laser grips. Green is lots brighter than red, works in daylight.  A good chance I'm going to hit what I shoot at, particularly in single action (both pistols have 3# triggers).  Carry one strong side IWB, the other in a concealment vest so I can draw seated or standing; each is backup for the other. Or arm a friend if he's qualified.

[DirtyDan]

+1 on the J frame ......great pocket pistol

K frame for open carry

Dan

[Moonshot_1]

Just watching the nightly news, it was reported that video of the shooting caught several folks in the store who pulled their concealed carry weapons.   But, the only shots fired were by the accused.

I'm at a loss for words here.    I find it beyond my understanding why no one carrying shot this jerk when he started shooting innocent shoppers.   I haven't seen the video, just that the Sheriff has reported what was on the video.   Maybe they weren't in a position to do anything, I don't know but, I most surely would like to know why someone didn't take this guy out.    I consider this part of a concealed carry responsibility.   

No, I don't currently own a weapon, the opportunity came around to make a nice profit on my last one.     Shots fired, time to do something about it IMHO.   No, I'm no hero but, I'm not gonna just stand there and let others get killed.   

I have friends who are LEOs and Fire Fighters,  when others are running away from danger, they head toward it.   

Had an interesting thought here. I don't carry so this comes from that perspective or lack of it.
Anyway, the scenario....

Pretty much like the Walmart shooter scenario. A whacko comes into the store, and for whatever reason, fires off 4 shots fairly quickly and it results in 3 deaths.
At the moment of the shots being fired, 7 other shoppers pull their concealed weapons. None of these 7 other shoppers know each other or saw the actual shooter. But now we have 8 people in the store with guns drawn. How do you know who is the bad guy? You can't make the call that it is the guy with the gun. Hell, YOU got a gun. You are a good guy but how are the other carrying people suppose to know?

I bring this up in response to the question of why no one who was carrying took this guy out. Don't know how the situation presented itself. But I am certain that if one of them had a shot at the KNOWN perpetrator they would have. I'd bet they never saw the guy or was never sure who was shooting or the event was over before they could do anything. Not to mention that this was a public place with shoppers all over the place. Lives were likely saved by their discretion.

[Willow]

He fired four shots and was gone.  He probably had a target in mind and shot the other two to try to make it look like random shootings.

People who carry need to have the discipline to fire when they know at whom to fire.  Apparently none of the carriers had the the clear identification and a clear shot.  Well chosen.

[¿spoom]

As others have stated, carrying is a right for most of us, but there's an enormous responsibility that comes with it and when in doubt, you have no choice but to stand down until/unless you are personally facing lethal force, or at least are in a situation where a reasonable person could believe that is the case or you could end up in prison for the duration. Then there's the aforementioned danger of getting oneself shot by LEOs or another well-meaning carriers. It ain't a half hour episode of Gunsmoke.   

[Chrisj CMA]

As far as other concealed carry patrons drawing weapons...they were flat wrong.  When you draw you shoot, therefore you don't draw with no engagable target period.

[DirtyDan]

As far as other concealed carry patrons drawing weapons...they were flat wrong.  When you draw you shoot, therefore you don't draw with no engagable target period.

Opinions varry on that

I’ve drawn before and seen others do so (police/soldiers) without a visible target

And without becoming a target themselves

I’ve been told don’t bother with speed drawing

Pull it out ahead of time

Dan

[Rams]

He fired four shots and was gone.  He probably had a target in mind and shot the other two to try to make it look like random shootings.

People who carry need to have the discipline to fire when they know at whom to fire.  Apparently none of the carriers had the the clear identification and a clear shot.  Well chosen.

Admittedly, I/we don't have all the facts and I do agree with knowing you have the right target.   
Just seems strange to me....................

Most likely, what it does show is good judgement on the part of the CCP people.   None of us were there so, we really don't know.

[Chrisj CMA]

As far as other concealed carry patrons drawing weapons...they were flat wrong.  When you draw you shoot, therefore you don't draw with no engagable target period.

Opinions varry on that

I’ve drawn before and seen others do so (police/soldiers) without a visible target

And without becoming a target themselves

I’ve been told don’t bother with speed drawing

Pull it out ahead of time

Dan

Police/Soldiers that's very different. They have a job to do and are good at it, while in uniform it's easier to tell who the good guys are.

[MP]

As far as other concealed carry patrons drawing weapons...they were flat wrong.  When you draw you shoot, therefore you don't draw with no engagable target period.

Respectfully disagree.
Example about like this.
In a store.
Shots fired an isle or two over from you. You cannot see anyone.
Why would you leave your gun holstered?
Now the gunman comes around corner into your aisle.
Do you REALLY want to lose the time needed to draw?
Or be ready to fire?
One way you have a chance.
Other way you get a nice funeral.

[Gavin_Sons]

As far as other concealed carry patrons drawing weapons...they were flat wrong.  When you draw you shoot, therefore you don't draw with no engagable target period.

Respectfully disagree.
Example about like this.
In a store.
Shots fired an isle or two over from you. You cannot see anyone.
Why would you leave your gun holstered?
Now the gunman comes around corner into your aisle.
Do you REALLY want to lose the time needed to draw?
Or be ready to fire?
One way you have a chance.
Other way you get a nice funeral.

Agreed  but it is also hard to know who the bad guy is if you do not see  the first shooting first hand. If I dont see who did it I'm getting myself and family out of there and away from the threat.

[Chrisj CMA]

As far as other concealed carry patrons drawing weapons...they were flat wrong.  When you draw you shoot, therefore you don't draw with no engagable target period.

Respectfully disagree.
Example about like this.
In a store.
Shots fired an isle or two over from you. You cannot see anyone.
Why would you leave your gun holstered?
Now the gunman comes around corner into your aisle.
Do you REALLY want to lose the time needed to draw?
Or be ready to fire?
One way you have a chance.
Other way you get a nice funeral.

I agree with you in the specific situation you described. The problem is other CC people and even the police not knowing who the shooter is.

I think the proper move in the scenario would be to move to a position of cover, then draw your weapons and wait.  If you don't aquire the target at least you are covered and not looking like the bad guy as much.  

I carry every day and think about these situations all the time.  I believe one big mistake CC  civillians make is wanting to be the hero.  We have to be the smart one, not rushing in getting our blood pressure up and making a mistake like not noticing Innocents in the line of fire

[3fan4life]

I was thinking about this earlier today.

In a situation like this how could you possibly know who the bad guy was and who the good guys are?

Walmart is a large place with a lot of obstructions.

Unless, you directly witnessed the shooter shooting or attempting to shoot an unarmed person. It would be impossible to determine who was the shooter.

As much as I would like to be able to stop a bad guy from shooting an innocent person, in this situation the prudent thing to do would be to draw your weapon and shelter in place.

Even though the MSM will attempt to paint their response to this incident in a negative light.

The fact that no one was accidentally shot is a great testimony to the common sense of the concealed carry citizens that were there.