Too much politics on this board,thought I would share my new home defense pistol

[Psychotic Bovine]

I sleep well in the knowledge that I can take care of any rampaging buffalo threat out to 600 yards.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Will it work on rampaging zombies also ? Unfortunately I'm a pretty crappy shot with a pistol. 60 feet would be a good shot for me. Not being proficient in pistols, I need to ask. What gun is that ?

[northernvalk]

I sleep well in the knowledge that I can take care of any rampaging buffalo threat out to 600 yards.

LOL......

[Gavin_Sons]

Will it work on rampaging zombies also ? Unfortunately I'm a pretty crappy shot with a pistol. 60 feet would be a good shot for me. Not being proficient in pistols, I need to ask. What gun is that ?

20 yards? Looks like a .460.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Will it work on rampaging zombies also ? Unfortunately I'm a pretty crappy shot with a pistol. 60 feet would be a good shot for me. Not being proficient in pistols, I need to ask. What gun is that ?

20 yards? Looks like a .460.

I readily admit, I’m not a great shot with a pistol.  I’m pretty good with a scoped rifle though. 

[Serk]

That looks like a Big Fine Revolver...

.45/70 perhaps?

[Jess from VA]

That thing is especially good if you can get your home invaders to line up for you.

One shot through three guys saves ammo, and slows the bullet down from leaving the premises.

(I'm also wondering what it is.  BFR?  Seems like the photo is a bit stretched.)

If in the house, I'd shoot it one handed, so I could poke my finger in at least one ear.   

[solo1]

Yep, it is a BFR in 45/70 caliber.  Chris is at work today so I'll fill in.

He just put this 2 power Nikon scope on it with adequate (LOL)steel scope rings.  I've shot this. Recoil is somewhat subdued by the weight. It's not bad with 300 grainers, not sure about 400+ bullets.

It's a little hard to hold this gun at arms length for long     The workmanship is top notch and the long cylinder will take bullets up to 700 grain from what Chirs told me.

The 45/70 gets its foot pounds of energy with 35k of pressure.  As you know, Serk, it's an old,old cartridge but still powerful with less pressure than some newer rounds.

Probably would prove adequate on Indiana deer.

Jess, no the photo isn't stretched, that is the actual dimensions.

[¿spoom]

Yep, it is a BFR in 45/70 caliber.  Chris is at work today so I'll fill in.

He just put this 2 power Nikon scope on it with adequate (LOL)steel scope rings.  I've shot this. Recoil is somewhat subdued by the weight. It's not bad with 300 grainers, not sure about 400+ bullets.

It's a little hard to hold this gun at arms length for long     The workmanship is top notch and the long cylinder will take bullets up to 700 grain from what Chirs told me.

The 45/70 gets its foot pounds of energy with 35k of pressure.  As you know, Serk, it's an old,old cartridge but still powerful with less pressure than some newer rounds.

Probably would prove adequate on Indiana deer.

Jess, no the photo isn't stretched, that is the actual dimensions.

When I see a mounting rail with 4 rings, I know it's too much for my small hands.

[Serk]

Yeah, the 45/70 is still a VERY viable round, even well over 100 years since it's introduction...

The elongated cylinder and Chris' remark about being able to take buffalo at 600 yards is what gave it away.

I've been tempted many times to pick up a BFR but my S&W 500 Magnum satisfies my "Ridiculously huge revolver hand cannon" need, at least for now...

Very nice piece, Magnum Research makes good stuff!

[old2soon]

Much rather be Behind that beasty stead of in front of it!  700 grain slug? DAMN!!! RIDE SAFE.

[MAD6Gun]

 To clarify what my dad said. I installed the scope for my brother,lol.  I have three 44 mag handguns one is a Ruger three screw Super Blackhawk. That three screw kicks fairly good. This BFR kicks much harder than that. When you rooster this gun it sounds like a bank vault opening. Very good quality....

 We used four steel scope rings to assure the scope will survive the recoil.  Although the 45/70 has a little less power than the 500 smith it can be pushed to that power level. I don't remember the specs but Chris knows. Perhaps he will chime in and say.

[Crackerborn]

I have shot 45/70 in a light (8 lb) lever action rifle. I am pretty sure "hand cannon" is an accurate description of that pistol. If I am not mistaken, the 405-500 grain was the standard bullet when the 45 Government (1880's?) was standard government issue with 70 grains of black powder, hence 45/70. With this round, the heavier grain bullets use less powder than the lighter bullets to prevent excessive pressure in the chamber (i.e. case failure). I would be careful about trying to match the .500 ballistics with the 45/70, it is not designed for that kind of pressure. I just took a quick look at Hodgdon's site, and they only offer charts to 485 gr and max 10 gr Trailboss powder. Of course, I had to search to figure loads for 195 gr SPBT in .308 (think elk not using .300 Win Mag). Darn it, now I have start another research project on another round I don't own (yet).

[Chrisj CMA]

Beautiful revolver even if it is a smaller caliber model....     lol.  Would be a nice sibling for my .500 S&W

[solo1]

Smaller caliber indeed!  ,   45/70 Cartridge is longer though, I think, (too lazy to look it up) so there!!!, LOL.  Agewise, no contest, the .500 Smith is not quite as old. (I value age at my age  )

One disadvantage of the Smith here in NE indiana. Our outdoor range doesn't allow .50 cal.  In all fairness, neither does a local indoor shooting range allow the 45/70.

Now if you have your own range, all bets are off.

Personally, I liked the three screw Super Blackhawk that I gave to my son.  Of course the .44 mag is a pipsqueak since it no longer is "The Worlds Most Powerful Handgun" with apologies to Dirty Harry.

The .44 will probably still blow you head clean off, according to the same.

[Psychotic Bovine]

Smaller caliber indeed!  ,   45/70 Cartridge is longer though, I think, (too lazy to look it up) so there!!!, LOL.  Agewise, no contest, the .500 Smith is not quite as old. (I value age at my age  )

One disadvantage of the Smith here in NE indiana. Our outdoor range doesn't allow .50 cal.  In all fairness, neither does a local indoor shooting range allow the 45/70.

Now if you have your own range, all bets are off.

Personally, I liked the three screw Super Blackhawk that I gave to my son.  Of course the .44 mag is a pipsqueak since it no longer is "The Worlds Most Powerful Handgun" with apologies to Dirty Harry.

The .44 will probably still blow you head clean off, according to the same.

Dad, the FWRR range allows the .500 smith. It just doesn't allow anything that is based on the .50 bmg (ie things like 480 barrett and such).  If they based on caliber, my .58 flintlock wouldn't be allowed, along with nearly all muzzleloaders.

[SpidyJ]

Beautiful revolver......but the gizmo on top is sorta fugly.....

[Chrisj CMA]

Smaller caliber indeed!  ,   45/70 Cartridge is longer though, I think, (too lazy to look it up) so there!!!, LOL.  Agewise, no contest, the .500 Smith is not quite as old. (I value age at my age  )

One disadvantage of the Smith here in NE indiana. Our outdoor range doesn't allow .50 cal.  In all fairness, neither does a local indoor shooting range allow the 45/70.

Now if you have your own range, all bets are off.

Personally, I liked the three screw Super Blackhawk that I gave to my son.  Of course the .44 mag is a pipsqueak since it no longer is "The Worlds Most Powerful Handgun" with apologies to Dirty Harry.

The .44 will probably still blow you head clean off, according to the same.

Dad, the FWRR range allows the .500 smith. It just doesn't allow anything that is based on the .50 bmg (ie things like 480 barrett and such).  If they based on caliber, my .58 flintlock wouldn't be allowed, along with nearly all muzzleloaders.

LOL I have shot my .500 magnum at an indoor range, well to be more accurate it was more like an indoor/outdoor range.  Even at that the noise was ear punishing.  Outdoors is the the only way for me to enjoy the S&W 500

[solo1]

Outdoors is the the only way for me to enjoy the S&W 500.  Quote by Chrisj

Wow! I would most certainly agree.  Sorta like when I first shot my 7mm mag under a covered firing point. I was covered with dust from the underside of the roof.

Chris, yeah, you're right, I got it wrong. 50 bmg is somewhat more than a .500 and a little harder on the backstops.
   

[Psychotic Bovine]

I have shot 45/70 in a light (8 lb) lever action rifle. I am pretty sure "hand cannon" is an accurate description of that pistol. If I am not mistaken, the 405-500 grain was the standard bullet when the 45 Government (1880's?) was standard government issue with 70 grains of black powder, hence 45/70. With this round, the heavier grain bullets use less powder than the lighter bullets to prevent excessive pressure in the chamber (i.e. case failure). I would be careful about trying to match the .500 ballistics with the 45/70, it is not designed for that kind of pressure. I just took a quick look at Hodgdon's site, and they only offer charts to 485 gr and max 10 gr Trailboss powder. Of course, I had to search to figure loads for 195 gr SPBT in .308 (think elk not using .300 Win Mag). Darn it, now I have start another research project on another round I don't own (yet).

Using modern smokeless propellants, you can push the .45-70 to 41000 cup, but ONLY IN ruger rifles.  Some Marlin levers can take the hotter ones, but not the ones to 41000.  Case rupture is possible, but some companies make thicker wall cases.  The bfr can be loaded that hot, but not with the powders I use, since the max load is a compressed load with my powder.  Bullet weights of 700+ grains can be loaded, also, keeping in mind the 41000 cup limit (this is from memory).  I won't load any rounds that hot, even though the BFR can take it, because my Pedersoli Sharps model 1874 won't take the max loads (limited to the 27000 cup pressure).  I load the same for both guns, a mix up would turn my Sharps into scrap metal and my face into hamburger, most likely.

The 500 smith is very nice, but the .45-70 is far more versatile. My standard bullet weight will be 405 "laser cast" lead, just for info.

[Serk]

Sorta like when I first shot my 7mm mag under a covered firing point. I was covered with dust from the underside of the roof.   

I learned many important lessons with my 7mm rem mag... I was in my early 20's, had more $$$ than sense, walked into my local gun store and said I wanted to buy the most powerful rifle they had in stock, with the best scope they had in stock on it.

A few days later after they mounted and bore sighted it I went home with my shiny Remington 700 in 7mm Remington Magnum.

Took it to my local INDOOR range, lined up on the target with my eye right on the back of the scope, then had a sudden thought... Woah! This thing is gonna kick! I better push it off my shoulder by an inch or two to lessen the impact!

Pulled the trigger... Instantly got a nice round bruise around my eye socket and a dislocated shoulder, and learned some VERY important lessons in that instant.

[Psychotic Bovine]

Beautiful revolver......but the gizmo on top is sorta fugly.....

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!  And that gizmo is pretty useful.
Especially while wearing bifocals.

[Psychotic Bovine]

Will it work on rampaging zombies also ? Unfortunately I'm a pretty crappy shot with a pistol. 60 feet would be a good shot for me. Not being proficient in pistols, I need to ask. What gun is that ?

Sorry, yes, I am sure it will work on zombies (headshots, of course).  There are better guns for zombies, though.
Being a single action, it's a little slow on the reload and only holds 5.

[..]

If in the house, I'd shoot it one handed, so I could poke my finger in at least one ear.   

 

[solo1]

Serk, Wow! a Weatherby eyebrow first thing! plus a dislocated shoulder.

Reminds me. I was teaching hunter safety at the local Isaac Walton many years ago.. I had my Ruger 77 flat bolt in 7MM mag and demonstrating 100 yard firing at water filled milk jugs.

There was a small boy of seven or so who wanted to shoot the rifle. His father gave permission. I carefully instructed this youngster in hard against the shoulder and eye back from the scope. Did a number of dry runs checking him each time.  Time to fire. I gotta admit that his eyes got big when he saw the cartridge!   He fired, the jug exploded instantly!  He smiled instantly!  Rubbed his shoulder but wasn't hurt.  "hey Dad!  Look at that!""

I was gratified but would never do that in today's society!

[MarkT]

45-70 500mag 44mag:



Scope smiles!  Sorry I gotta laugh at the thought.  Esp when long-experienced hunters who know better have a brain fart and you see the day or two old smile (or frown) below / above their eye, around opening day.  My buddy has had that both the last two seasons!

I was recently torn between the BFR in .45-70 and the S&W .500mag.  Decided on the latter because the Galco Kodiak Hunter chest holster is not made for the BFR.  And I couldn't find a nice one w/o going to custom gunleather and to me that's a crap shoot.  I have the same Galco holster for my Super Blackhawk - pricey but great quality and very versatile.



For me, these 2 hand cannons are functionally equivalent.  I was looking for a power upgrade for my Super Blackhawk for hunting and a range toy.  I would hand load either.  The S&W had a slight edge for the muzzle brake and the dbl action.  And has a bit more power - about 2800ft/lbs depending on load, about the same as .30-06 or 12ga slug, with .45-70 around 2350 (YMMV). .44mag is around 1100, depending on load - so the .500mag is about 2 1/2 times the power of Dirty Harry's "Most Powerful Handgun".  The S&W with 400gr factory loads stings your hand pretty good even with gloves and the muzzle brake and it's 73oz empty weight. The dbl action is not a big deal because both guns recoil so much the hammer can easily be thumbed in recoil.  Gun experts rave on the quality and strength of the BFR, as well as accuracy.  S&W is legendary quality while my other revolvers from them are 2nd only to my Colt Python in fit, finish, and smooth action - already proven in my book.  (You may know, the Python is the Rolex of revolvers.)  They both are quite heavy and bulky. Doesn't matter much given their normal use.  I think no one in their right mind would consider using these hand cannons for defense at home or carry.  Such use would no doubt invite being excoriated on the stand in court.

I have a .45-70 anyway - a Henry lever rifle.  The cartridge was created in 1873 IIRC, and has been in continuous production ever since.  I think it's the oldest current rifle cartridge, or close.  (.44-40, .45LC it's contemporaries, also still in production)  It was black powder then, of course.  The rifle used by Matthew Quigley was a Sharps Shiloh .45-110-500. Like a .45-70 "on steroids". From Montana - they have an annual competition up there commemorating the rifle.  Back in those days the caliber was their "long range" shooter.  To 5,000 yds.  Yeah, not a typo. Nearly 3 miles. They don't try that nowadays - not even Chris Kyle with a .338 Lapua in a AI sniper rifle, or .50BMG Barrett.  They were real shooters back then.  But that range was for "volley fire".  Couldn't expect to hit an individual target but when fired in volleys at massed troops, hits were still fatal at that range with such heavy large caliber bullets. (actually the caliber was small for those days.)

From rifleshootermag.com -

By today’s standards the .45-70 can be considered nothing more than a close-range cartridge, but there was a time when it was thought to be quite suitable for shooting at great distances.

According to a report filed in 1880 by the Secretary of War, a Mr. R.T. Hare who worked at Springfield Armory “hit a six-foot bullseye at 2500 yards with three different 1873 Springfield rifles.” For an encore, the marksman backed off to 3,200 yards and repeated his performance.

When performing long-range penetration tests, the U.S. Army found that the 500-grain lead bullet of the service load consistently penetrated three one-inch pine boards at 3,500 yards and then continued on to an average depth of five inches into a sand backstop. Average bullet flight time at that distance was 20.8 seconds.

I don't recall where I read the 5,000yd reference, but it's online.  In case you didn't know this already - black powder loads have been proven to be more consistent in velocity than smokeless.  With all other factors being equal - highly tuned black powder loads have more accuracy potential - and realized - than smokeless.  And tests of Quigley's movie-claimed feats have reproduced the accuracy. Not offhand of course. 

BTW - I just read that Eric at Moss Pawn got to showcase the actual Shiloh Sharps Quigley rifle from the movie - here's the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7tneYzIFQw

You can order one from Shiloh if you have a hankerin.  I might just look into what it takes to get one. Been wanting to get into black powder and I can't think of a better shooter than a Shiloh Sharps .45-110.  Just checked.  They sell them at $3533.  With lots of options you can spend considerably more.  Still, it's an investment.  See https://shilohrifle.com/rifles/1874-sharps-rifle/1874-hartford-clone-en/



Man.  I'm drooling.


I accessorized my Henry - had Marble Arms make a tang sight for it.  They don't offer that for the Henry .45-70 yet.  Added a picatinny rail from Henry so I could attach my Aimpoint red dot.  Had a leather guy make a nice shell holder for the stock, with a container for the Marble Arms sights on the other side.  Sighted it for zero at 200 yds using Hornady Leverevolution 325gr rounds.  Muzzle velocity about 1900fps with this barrel gives energy a little less than .30-06 and a pretty flat trajectory for a tube-fed rifle with Hornady's soft-tip spitzer bullets that deliver hollow-point type expansion. That makes the bullet 4.5" above the sight at 100 yds.  I'm thinking I'll move the zero back to 150 next time I go to the range.  Where we hunt in the woods, there won't be any shots out to such distances so don't need point-blank range (no holdover for range) out to 215.  Don't have scope accuracy anyway with a 2-mil red dot.  And can use my ballistic computer and laser rangefinder if need long range.  Actually, bring along the scoped M1A if we move to long shots.

[Hacked Valk]

Not a gun fan, don't have any, don't want any but that's a beautiful gun.  Love the grip and the proportions and lines are great.  Design award worthy.

[DirtyDan]

I feel so “wimpy” I stick to .38 special +p sjhp

Just me

Dan

[The emperor has no clothes]

I feel so “wimpy” I stick to .38 special +p sjhp

Just me

Dan

Don't feel bad Dan. I carry a little LCP 380. 

[phideux]

Love a good 45/70, hell I love most calibers that begin with a 45, have a few.
Love to take a few 45/70 cases, scoop them full of some real old timey Black Powder, and crunch a 400 grainer on top of it.
BOOOOOOM, Smoke, Sparks and love that smell.

[G-Man]

I'd feel safe just living on Chris and Mark's block.

[Psychotic Bovine]

I'd feel safe just living on Chris and Mark's block.

Yes, we are quite prepared for the Great Zombie Apocalypse.

[Jess from VA]

Speaking of hand cannons, have you guys been following the somewhat new pistol grip (only) well under BATFE minimum 18 inch barrel shotguns?  Specifically, the Mossberg Shockwave, and the newer Remington 870 TAC14, and brand new 870 TAC14 DM (detachable box magazine)?

First, an explanation of the law and BATFE ruling:

Traditionally a shotgun has to have a barrel longer than 18 inches, or it is a short barreled shotgun (SBS), or AOW (Any Other Weapon).  In either case they fall under the National Firearms Act (NFA) and are title 2 weapons. Civilian ownership of a title 2 weapon requires registration, a tax stamp, a bit of paperwork, and a long wait to be approved, and put you on a Federal list.  Firearms like the Shockwave and Tac 14 require nothing more than a traditional 4473 and a background check since they are not Title 2 weapons.

A shotgun as defined in the NFA is a shoulder fired weapon. If a gun that just so happens to be patterned after a traditional shotgun like the 870 or 590 and has never had a stock it is not a shotgun. These firearms were never designed, or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder.

And, some shotguns are classified as AOWs.  AOW shotguns aren’t really shotguns either, but 12 gauge firearms. They fall into the AOW class because they are under 26 inches in overall length, and also Title 2 requiring a tax stamp.

With the Mossberg 590 Shockwave and Remington Tac14, barrel length is not the primary concern. The concern is overall length. These firearms must maintain an overall length of 26 inches to maintain NON-NFA tax stamp SBS or AOW status. That’s why both the Mossberg 590 Shockwave and Remington Tac 14 feature the unique (long) Shockwave Raptor grip. This grip extends their overall length to 26 inches when fitted with a 14 inch barrel. Theoretically if you had a longer grip of some kind on this firearm (but not a shoulder stock), the barrel could be even shorter.

Very interesting.  It's great when you practically need to be a lawyer to understand the complex and frankly arcane rules about what are legal, legal with a big permit, and illegal firearms (with rather stern criminal penalties).  And one must never forget that he must also comply with his own State laws, where these new 14" bbl firearms likely remain illegal in certain (blue) states.  Additionally, in researching these firearms, it was written several times that one must be very careful of any modifications (or add ons) to these non-shotguns, as you could run the risk of losing their non-NFA status.  A forward verticle grip might be very helpful in controlling them, and is probably OK.

So, here's the Mossy Shockwave.  Aluminum receiver, 5 in the tube (and one in the chamber).


Here's the Remy 870 TAC14.  Steel receiver, 4 in the tube (and one in the chamber)(Magpul forend)


Here's the same TAC14 Marine Magnum, with Electroless nickel plating covering all metal, including the inside of the barrel and receiver, and apparently every little part inside.


And here's the newest Remy 870 TAC14 DM.  Steel, and magazines of either 3 or 6 rounds (and 1 in the chamber).


I've never been a fan of pistol grip only 12 gauge shotguns simply because they kick bad enough even with a shoulder stock, and even shotguns need to be aimed lest you hit unintended things or people.  

But these new 14" bbl non-NFA non-shotguns are very interesting, and very portable.  For portability sake, I would also not choose the magazine fed Remy TAC14 DM, and if the fight you are approaching requires extra mags, you are probably not choosing the right firearm anyway.  

Portability could include carrying concealed (not in shorts and Tshirt, unless you wear really big shorts), but here again you would have to be careful of your State laws. VA permits are only for handguns, and by Federal definition, these non-shotguns are not handguns either.

My favorite Utube gun reviewer Hickock45 shows you can actually hit things with these non-shotguns (but having watched him review many firearms, it is clear this humble fellow just happens to be a dead shot marksman with everything he picks up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBqTDeyoq7g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzfreZBvyyI

But I think the real good deal with these things is that either the Shockwave or DM14 come in 20 gauge. Since these are best considered for all-purpose home defense (and surrounding areas), and short ranges, the 20 gauge is plenty deadly for stopping power, and much more likely to be usable by spouses and children of suitable age and training.  Generally speaking, the 20 gauge is 75% of the power of the 12 gauge, but only about 50% of the recoil of the 12 gauge, and that reduction in recoil is significant.

Notably, the mag fed Remy 870 DM does not (yet) come in 20 gauge, as presumably it's taking time to work up 20 gauge mags.

About $400 for either.  Somewhat cheaper than your .500 S & W's and 45/70 BFR's (though they are really different animals)




 

[Serk]

Yup, was following those very closely, went to a fun show with cash in my pocket to buy one, but when I picked it up, it just didn't speak to me, if ya' know what I mean.

All that and they still made it nearly the length of a regulation shotgun.

Another one that's being teased, details should be out soon is Franklin Armory's Not an SBR Reformation... Not sure what it really is or what loophole they found (It's not a brace on the back, they're flat out calling it a stock.)



And yeah, it's almost as if the laws were intentionally crafted to catch legal gun owners in a web of regulations so that anyone could be arrested at any time for an innocent mistake.

[Jess from VA]

One thing's for sure, todays BATFE is not Clinton's or Zero's BATFE.  It is safe to assume, that they would not have approved these things that are now magically legal.

I already have 3 18" defense shotguns; 2 870s and a Mossy 930 SPX auto.  It's hard to justify another, though a 20 gauge TAC14 might be calling me.   

Wadaya mean there's a problem with my carry-on?   


 

[Serk]

Woah... Just announced, now THIS would make an effective home defense weapon!




https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/1/17/iwi-us-introduces-first-bullpup-shotgun-tavor-ts12/

[Jess from VA]

15 shot (2 3/4) gas semiauto, 18.5", 3 mag tubes, 8 lbs empty, bullpup.  Kind of a brick, but interesting.

All gas operated shotguns have a healthy reduction in felt recoil (from all others).  $1300

Only 2+" longer than the Shockwave & TAC14, but 2 3/4lbs heavier (empty, then add 15rds).



 

[bill-jr]

This is my new toy i got a few weeks ago........





Meat ...My wife also carrys the LCP 380
Im lookin at getting myself a LCR in the near future

[Gavin_Sons]

15 shot (2 3/4) gas semiauto, 18.5", 3 mag tubes, 8 lbs empty, bullpup.  Kind of a brick, but interesting.

All gas operated shotguns have a healthy reduction in felt recoil (from all others).  $1300

Only 2+" longer than the Shockwave & TAC14, but 2 3/4lbs heavier (empty, then add 15rds).




We were checking these out today on our lunch break at work. Very bulky in my opinion. Would rather have the kel-tec double shotgun.
 

[Serk]

I'll hafta see how it feels once they hit the stores, but if it's anything like their 5.56 Tavor bullpup, I'll be getting one. I've got a matched pair of Tavors now, it's my designated "SHTF" rifle, absolutely love that thing.

Short video of the spousal unit squeezing off a round with one of my current Tavors:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH_WofTxC0w

(And one of the triplets begging for a turn himself in the background)