Your opinions on Ultimate seats and braided brake lines?

[Airtrax]

My Interstate is back from fork surgery, which turned out well. I can't even find where the rust spots were, tube looks like new to me. Hope it lasts! Ride is also improved with Progressive springs.

Turning my attention elsewhere now, and knowing it's all subjective, I would like to know from those of you that have Ultimate seats how good or bad they are. They are quite pricey! I'm currently on a Mustang seat and really don't have any complaints with it other than the height. At 5'9" I can pretty much flat foot it, but would like to be a bit lower. I already have a set of Progressive 11.5" shocks to put on, and combined with an Ultimate seat may be the ticket for height. Don't want to be sitting on a rock, though.

Regarding brakes; do stainless steel braided lines live up to the hype? What have you done that made a marked improvement in braking action?

L.A. (Lower Alabama) is warming up! Riding time!

[Gavin_Sons]

My Interstate is back from fork surgery, which turned out well. I can't even find where the rust spots were, tube looks like new to me. Hope it lasts! Ride is also improved with Progressive springs.

Turning my attention elsewhere now, and knowing it's all subjective, I would like to know from those of you that have Ultimate seats how good or bad they are. They are quite pricey! I'm currently on a Mustang seat and really don't have any complaints with it other than the height. At 5'9" I can pretty much flat foot it, but would like to be a bit lower. I already have a set of Progressive 11.5" shocks to put on, and combined with an Ultimate seat may be the ticket for height. Don't want to be sitting on a rock, though.

Regarding brakes; do stainless steel braided lines live up to the hype? What have you done that made a marked improvement in braking action?

L.A. (Lower Alabama) is warming up! Riding time!

I have an ultimate and don't care for it. Save a couple hundred extra and get a Russell day long.

[Hook#3287]

I have a Mustang, Ultimate Big Boy and several OEM seats.

The only OEM I like is the optional Interstate one with the studs, for some reason it's comfortable.

I like the Mustang and love the Ultimate.

I had a Ultimate Low Boy and it was comfortable, but it sat me too low, (5' 11") so I sold it. Might work for you.

If your close enough to Daytona Florida (weekend road trip?) you could ride over to the Ultimate store and try out all models.

I've never tried the Russell, but everyone that has one, seems to love them.

I've never up graded any brake lines, but the reports are a crisper, more precise feeling with s.s.

[pais]

"I have an ultimate and don't care for it. Save a couple hundred extra and get a Russell day long."

 Could not agree more with what Gavin_Sons said!

[Jess from VA]

I rode Mustang seats until I rode Ultimates.  I think they are pretty close in the density of foam area, except:  The Ultimate Lowboy (one inch under stock seat height) is firmer than the Ultimate Bigboy (one inch higher than stock seat).  Of course, how high a seat sits, and foam density in general, changes with age; the older the they get, the softer and (a bit) lower they get.  Conversely, most new seats tend to feel harder and (a bit) higher than what you have (absent a dedicated lowered seat).  I think Mustang seats are about stock height, for comparison, but when new are a bit firmer than stock.  While firmer, my Lowboy has never felt too hard, or anything like a Corbin concrete block.

The other thing to know is that Mustangs are pretty flat, but the Ultimates are raised in the nose, and some guys complain of ballsack discomfort as a result (and have actually moved to a Mustang to get rid of that).  Not me, I like the raised nose that tends to keep you back in the pocket of the seat, and it is about the most popular aftermarket seat there is.  Everyone with Russel Day Long seats raves about them, but they are more spendy than Ultimates (in the nature of one first born child, though I hear they prefer cash).  

Being completely honest, I did have the nutsack discomfort on my Ultimates twice.  Both were hot weather longer rides, where my under britches were old worn out cotton long past when they could remotely be called supportive (and should have never been worn off the property), and I was wearing my hot weather baggy jeans.  Riding essentially commando in loose clothes can allow the equipment to bounce, rattle and vibrate all the day long, and can get increased with a raised nose seat.  And I have discovered for myself that said equipment seems to be gaining a bit in sag the older I get (what the hell's up with that?).  But decent support means no problem on my Ultimates.  So much for the anatomy lesson.

Looking for lower seats, it's hard to beat the Ultimate Lowboy.

But seats in general is one of those things that is shown to be very subjective to each owner, and trying them out if possible is always better than spending to find out.  Ultimate (I think still has the policy of) lets you return a new seat (if you get NO custom features they offer) for up to 10-14 days from purchase for any reason at all, unlike any other seller.  

The best deal is to hook up with a few other Valk riders and ask to swap seats with them for a while... it's only a tool-less key turn to swap.  As long as they don't think you'll take off with their seat.  Don't forget to check our classified for used.

I'm only 5'9" with a 29.5 inseam, and I ride 13" (stock height) shocks, and both a Lowboy and Bigboy, and I have no problem getting my feet down (so long as I don't put my foot in a hole at a stop).  11.5" shocks will take quite a bit of travel out of your suspension, and make leaning the bike in turns a dragging event quickly, and I would never go that low, but some have and don't seem to mind.  This may have to do with living and riding in the flat and straight lands vrs my mountain and valley riding.  If you stick those 11.5s on, don't trade away your 13s.  

I have braided stainless on one Valk and OE brake lines on the other, and I cannot tell any difference.  I think quality of Valk brakes is more dependent on how well your calipers and pistons are cleaned, and fresh fluid and proper bleeding, and good pads (ie good maintenence), than brake lines.  When everything is as it should be, these bikes stop very well.

[hubcapsc]

I have braided stainless on one Valk and OE brake lines on the other, and I cannot tell any difference.  I think quality of Valk brakes is more dependent on how well your calipers and pistons are cleaned, and fresh fluid and proper bleeding, and good pads (ie good maintenence), than brake lines.  When everything is as it should be, these bikes stop very well.

What he said.

Plus, generally, I think braided lines look "added on"... I think they are
a "get them if you want them" thing... not a "you need them" thing.

I like the Ultimate seat on my 1500, and "need" the Russell seat on
my 1800...

-Mike

[The emperor has no clothes]

Russell

[The emperor has no clothes]

Houdini just put a Russell in our classifieds. I'd pm him and find out his height and weight. 

[Jess from VA]

I have braided stainless on one Valk and OE brake lines on the other, and I cannot tell any difference.  I think quality of Valk brakes is more dependent on how well your calipers and pistons are cleaned, and fresh fluid and proper bleeding, and good pads (ie good maintenence), than brake lines.  When everything is as it should be, these bikes stop very well.

What he said.

Plus, generally, I think braided lines look "added on"... I think they are
a "get them if you want them" thing... not a "you need them" thing.

I like the Ultimate seat on my 1500, and "need" the Russell seat on
my 1800...

-Mike

One bike came with the fronts (only) stainless, and they work perfectly, but it looks like the guy went just a little long everywhere on the hoses (and a little long is always better than a little short), and they are not as tight to the bike as OE (and the T got moved).  When I did a major service, I changed the back line to stainless to make it match (a pretty short, cheap part).  It doesn't work any better than what came off it (which was still working fine).  You rarely hear about people having trouble with their OE lines, and going to stainless because of it.  Like Mike said, do it if you want.

[semo97]

Like said Russel Day Long they will make it to fit you I gave up on all the seat mods long ago and just buy day long as for SS lines just cosmetic, that much more in time and work to look pretty.

[threevalks]

             Ultimate seats are over priced and smash the boys. As Gavin said buy a Russell. Ultimate makes 3 seats. Russell makes a custom seat to fit your size, weight, seating position, etc.

[Oss]

I liked the mustang with backrest

  But I can't even consider any day ride without the Russell

Yamv

[John Schmidt]

I tried the Ultimate Low Boy first, you sit lower but for me the "dance floor" was rather crowded. After a 30 minute ride I felt like I did when I got tackled once during football practice; both thigh pads came loose and slipped upwards....meeting in the middle. I went to the Big Boy next and was fine with that until Des came out with the King. He let me take it for a ride during Bike Week one year and I was sold. I'm 5'10", 215lbs., 30" inseam, running 12" rear shocks and flat foot it with ease.

As for the SS lines, they will make a difference if your OEM lines have become soft and expand some when you hit the brakes. That affects your braking action since you lose some pressure due to the expansion of the rubber lines. I've had them on my ride for ten years or longer....both brakes and clutch. Both are rock hard, giving a solid feel to the braking/clutch action. If you're happy with your braking, then leave it alone for now. When things start to feel a bit soft, then make the change. Many times I've felt the brake lever on bikes with OEM lines, once you reach the point where it feels rather solid against the rotors and you can still squeeze the lever a tad more....it's time to replace. You will notice a difference in the feel.

PS: That's not the Ulitmate seat in the post picture.

[98valk]

use the newer DOT4 LV fluid.  higher wet boiling point and much better brake feel esp for a wider ambient temp range.
SS lines always work better than OEM.

I've been very satisfied with the newer std seat with a sheep cover. did an 8 hr day with zero problems.

[old2soon]

On my 99 I/S I have stock shocks And I'm STILL on the Stock I/S seat with a sheepskin and a backrest. I do have Kury road pegs. At 6' 2" tall and a 32" inseam I flat foot my Phatt Ghuel easily. I have done near 700 mile days on the stack azz parker.  My Brother has an Ultimate and I have sat upon it BUT it do play havoc with the boyz.  He-my Brother-on the other seems to be very happy with his seat.  BUT I've heard more than once right here on our board the Ultimate being sold after the Russel Day Long arrived. RIDE SAFE.

[Rams]

use the newer DOT4 LV fluid.  higher wet boiling point and much better brake feel esp for a wider ambient temp range.
SS lines always work better than OEM.

I've been very satisfied with the newer std seat with a sheep cover. did an 8 hr day with zero problems.

OK, I'm asking cause I guess I need to learn something.   Just how do SS lines work better.
Curious minds want to know.......   Seriously, I can see no reason why they would "work" better than OE.   Please enlighten me.

Rams   

[hubcapsc]

use the newer DOT4 LV fluid.  higher wet boiling point and much better brake feel esp for a wider ambient temp range.
SS lines always work better than OEM.

I've been very satisfied with the newer std seat with a sheep cover. did an 8 hr day with zero problems.

OK, I'm asking cause I guess I need to learn something.   Just how do SS lines work better.
Curious minds want to know.......   Seriously, I can see no reason why they would "work" better than OE.   Please enlighten me.

Rams   

I got nothing  ...

What John Schmidt said about old lines getting soft seems reasonable to me.

I once changed out my OEM front lines, (with OEM front lines) - even the little
bit of hard line. It was at the same that that I refurbished the calipers, put in
new pads and of course bled.

I'm not saying I needed new lines, but my 20 year old bike doesn't have 20
year old brake lines anymore, and my brakes work great.

-Mike

[Robert]

use the newer DOT4 LV fluid.  higher wet boiling point and much better brake feel esp for a wider ambient temp range.
SS lines always work better than OEM.

I've been very satisfied with the newer std seat with a sheep cover. did an 8 hr day with zero problems.

OK, I'm asking cause I guess I need to learn something.   Just how do SS lines work better.
Curious minds want to know.......   Seriously, I can see no reason why they would "work" better than OE.   Please enlighten me.

Rams   

Stainless brake lines don't have the give that normal rubber hoses do so you get a much more positive and direct feel to the brakes. You can judge easier what kind of pressure you are putting on the brakes since you don't have to compensate for the give of the hoses and they don't swell up and close like the rubber ones do. The other thing is looks and chaffing they look really good and you can get chrome or colored ends and the hose comes in many colors. While chaffing has never really been an issue they do provide better resistance to chaffing than rubber. It can also sometimes change the height that the brakes engage at for the better since again you feel a direct pressure you are putting on the brakes. Effectively allowing for better feathering of the brakes when you don't have much pressure on them. The last thing is quicker stopping in emergency situations for all the reasons listed above.

The master cylinder is nothing more than a pump if you have to overcome losses due to hose expansion then you have to press more to get the same pressure if the hose does expand compared to not expanding. I have seen brake hoses elongate and expand under pressure something that braided hoses do not do.

There is one bad thing though that you have to watch out for and that is the plastic that goes over the braiding needs to be all the way to the end and sealed since if water gets in between the inner and outer layers they discolor.

As for brake fluid I use the Pentosin Super Dot 4, while our bikes don't really call for this standard its just an extra measure of precaution.

I also as far as a saddle goes have Corbin and that's pretty much all I have ever had.

[Gavin_Sons]

use the newer DOT4 LV fluid.  higher wet boiling point and much better brake feel esp for a wider ambient temp range.
SS lines always work better than OEM.

I've been very satisfied with the newer std seat with a sheep cover. did an 8 hr day with zero problems.

OK, I'm asking cause I guess I need to learn something.   Just how do SS lines work better.
Curious minds want to know.......   Seriously, I can see no reason why they would "work" better than OE.   Please enlighten me.

Rams   

The SS braid is not suppose to let the rubber line inside swell under braking. Suppose to give a more "solid" feel.

[98valk]

inner pressure tube of SS lines is a teflon type material, it doesn't expand under pressure. OEM lines inner pressure tube is a reinforced rubber line, it expands under pressure reducing the amount of pressure getting to the calipers.

[MarkT]

For your convenience I am reposting my extensive seat post from a month or so ago.

In my experience all seats are better than the 98 OEM.  My butt cried for relief on that miserable seat in a half hour at most.  Awful.  I have had, and list here in order of comfort, worst to best, these: 
OEM '98
OEM '00
Corbin Gunfighter
Ultimate Big Boy
Mustang
Rood Saddle Mod
Russell Daylong

All of these seats required break-in before they arrived at their comfort level.  Except the OEMs.  They were hopeless.  Break-in time varies - might be months.  If you are evaluating and want to do so at minimal cost, it would be best if you could swap seats with friends and do at least a 5 hour ride on each one.  In a perfect world.  At least it's easy to do that - no mods needed to change seats they all click into place the same.

Butts & seats are very personal.  My list is what my butt says.  Your mileage will probably vary.  Except on the Russell being the best.  Have not heard anyone report bad on it if it was made for them.

As far as looks - the Ultimate may be best.  Then the Corbin.  Mustang, Rood and Russell maybe tied.  Of course this is opinion and to me, what I like matters most to me - don't much care what others think.  And I don't much care what it looks like if it makes my butt happy.  Nothing like an Iron Butt ride sans butt pain.  And I've done a lot of 1150 mile rides in one day - though only one certified. Between Franktown CO & Racine WI. Painful on all seats except the Russell.

I still have on my 4 Valks, a Corbin (George), Mustang (Marty), Ultimate (Deerslayer), and Russell (Jade).

The only good thing about the '98 OEM is it can be the base for the Russell (or the Rood).  They build your seat on the seat pan you send them.

http://www.horseapple.com/Valkyrie/Tech_Tips/Rood_Saddle_Mod/rood_saddle_mod.html

https://day-long.com/

Russell:




Just to be complete, here's shots of my other seats:

Rood:




Mustang:




Ultimate:




Corbin:

[John Schmidt]

Re. soft OEM lines, as they age you can feel the difference by squeezing the line itself in your hand, and at the same time squeeze the hand brake lever. If the lines are getting soft, you can literally feel the movement in your hand. The SS lines don't allow it.

[_Sheffjs_]

I have Ss on one and OEM on another.  I think what is important is to change out aging lines and New OEM I feel is all that is needed. 

[The emperor has no clothes]

I have S.S. on my Interstate. I dislike the way the sun has discolored the plastic over them.

[da prez]

I have the ultimet and if I had it to do over , I would not get then. It is a hood quality seat, but it has never been comfortable for me.

                                    da prez

[Gryphon Rider]

inner pressure tube of SS lines is a teflon type material, it doesn't expand under pressure. OEM lines inner pressure tube is a reinforced rubber line, it expands under pressure reducing the amount of pressure getting to the calipers.

Strictly speaking from a physics point of view, what you are saying is not entirely true.  With any non-leaking hydraulic system, the pressure applied at any point is exerted equally at any other point, i.e. if squeezing the lever causes the master cylinder to apply 50PSI to the fluid, 50PSI will be applied to every square mm of the interior surface of the hose, and 50PSI will be applied to every square mm of the brake caliper pistons.  The difference with a system that is allowed to expand, e.g. with old OEM hoses swelling under pressure, is that it requires more movement of the master piston, which requires more travel of the brake lever, to produce that 50PSI.

One way to think of this is as two trucks, each towing a 2400lb economy car up a hill, one truck using a 20 foot long, 3500lb polypropylene tow rope, and the other using a 20 foot long, 3/8", grade 70, 6600lb steel chain.  Both tethers are capable of supporting the entire weight of the car, even if it were dangling from a crane, so the ability to apply force to the car isn't an issue.  What will happen, however, is that the poly rope will stretch by a much longer amount than the chain will before it starts to move the car, and the car will bungee forward and back as it's forward motion is resisted and aided by bumps, possibly making it more difficult to control than the car being pulled by the chain.  The soft hose, similarly, allows more lever travel before your fingers can apply a given amount of force than the stainless steel braided hose will allow, and the SS hose will allow better control, as smaller amounts of lever travel allow a greater change in braking force.

What could happen with soft hoses is that you could run out of lever travel before you run out of hand strength, thus harder squeezing won't apply more pressure to the brake fluid.  Also, there could be a specific region within the travel of that lever in which your fingers are able to apply more force than in another region of lever travel.  If the soft hoses allow the lever to travel past the region where your fingers can apply the most force, then you would not be able to squeeze as hard.  I have no idea if this is actually an issue.

[98valk]

The master cylinder is nothing more than a pump if you have to overcome losses due to hose expansion then you have to press more to get the same pressure if the hose does not expand. I have seen brake hoses elongate and expand under pressure something that braided hoses do not do.

inner pressure tube of SS lines is a teflon type material, it doesn't expand under pressure. OEM lines inner pressure tube is a reinforced rubber line, it expands under pressure reducing the amount of pressure getting to the calipers.

Strictly speaking from a physics point of view, what you two are saying is not entirely true.  With any non-leaking hydraulic system, the pressure applied at any point is exerted equally at any other point, i.e. if squeezing the lever causes the master cylinder to apply 50PSI to the fluid, 50PSI will be applied to every square mm of the interior surface of the hose, and 50PSI will be applied to every square mm of the brake caliper pistons.  The difference with a system that is allowed to expand, e.g. with old OEM hoses swelling under pressure, is that it requires more movement of the master piston, which requires more travel of the brake lever, to produce that 50PSI.

One way to think of this is as two trucks, each towing a 2400lb economy car up a hill, one truck using a 20 foot long, 3500lb polypropylene tow rope, and the other using a 20 foot long, 3/8", grade 70, 6600lb steel chain.  Both tethers are capable of supporting the entire weight of the car, even if it were dangling from a crane, so the ability to apply force to the car isn't an issue.  What will happen, however, is that the poly rope will stretch by a much longer amount than the chain will before it starts to move the car, and the car will bungee forward and back as it's forward motion is resisted and aided by bumps, possibly making it more difficult to control than the car being pulled by the chain.  The soft hose, similarly, allows more lever travel before your fingers can apply a given amount of force than the stainless steel braided hose will allow, and the SS hose will allow better control, as smaller amounts of lever travel allow a greater change in braking force.

What could happen with soft hoses is that you could run out of lever travel before you run out of hand strength, thus harder squeezing won't apply more pressure to the brake fluid.  Also, there could be a specific region within the travel of that lever in which your fingers are able to apply more force than in another region of lever travel.  If the soft hoses allow the lever to travel past the region where your fingers can apply the most force, then you would not be able to squeeze as hard.  I have no idea if this is actually an issue.

yea. seen that response many times, it has always been refuted by many brake experts. I think a better explanation below.
  and u NEVER use rope to tow vehicles or dangle them from a crane.

Factory rubber lines are not reinforced like stainless lines, therefore when pressure builds in them, they will expand outward. That expansion results in a spongy or squishy pedal feel. By upgrading to a set of stainless steel lines over the factory rubber lines, you will reduce the outward expansion of the line. This in turn will reduce the spongy feel in your brake pedal and give you a more accurate pedal feel. An accurate pedal feel will allow for more sensitive braking adjustments and will also increase pedal feedback into the system.
https://www.americanmuscle.com/rubber-vs-stainless-steel-brake-lines.html

Any time that an object is subjected to internal pressure, it expands. The amount of expansion will be proportional to the amount of pressure present and the rigidity of the holding structure. In the case of brake hoses, we are subjecting Teflon to internal pressures as high as 3000PSI. Because the Teflon is relatively flexible (which makes it ideal for the job in one regard), it will expand under these conditions. This expansion creates additional fluid volume in the hydraulic circuit which is felt by the driver as a soft or mushy pedal.

Rubber overmolding does little to reduce expansion under pressure, as rubber is also a relatively flexible material. A woven braid of Stainless Steel, however, can greatly increase the rigidity of the hose under pressure while still allowing adequate flexibility for wheel end movement. In many cases, this reduced expansion can be felt by the driver as a firmer or more responsive brake pedal.

In addition, the reduced compliance will result in a faster transient response of the brake system. In other words, the time from the driver hitting the brake pedal until deceleration is generated will be decreased by a small amount. The benefit will vary based on each individual application, but in general overall deceleration can be attained more quickly, resulting in slightly shorter stopping distances.
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/stainless-steel-brake-lines-q-a

[Jess from VA]

Well, all I can say is my 19yo OE brake lines will lock the brakes up if I want them to, but I mostly don't want or need them too.  I swap between bikes, with SS and OE brake lines, several times a year (months, not weeks), and I've been riding for 45 years, and there is no particularly appreciable difference between them in braking power or quality or dexterity of hand and foot work.  I like to go fast often, but my riding style does not wear out pads very fast, and both bikes get a long time between pad changes.  And both bikes have had periodic fluid changes and caliper cleaning.       

I certainly understand the scientific principles of expansion of rubber vs steel lines, and I don't dispute that difference..... but any difference SO FAR has been minimal to non existent as far as how much pedal and lever pressure has to be applied to get the same amount of stopping power. 

I suppose my stainless lines will outlast my OE lines, but how long Mr Jingles (the OE lines) will last is anyone's guess. (The Green Mile)

[Jersey mike]

I've been riding on the Ultimate Low boy for about 4 years now and I love it. I'm 5'10 155 lbs.

the seat does "crowd the boys a bit" sometimes but not too bad.

the first ride after changing the seat i knew the was the seat for me. it seats your butt right into the seat and gives me a real good feel of the bike, i can get good input of the road through the seat and how the ass end of the bike reacts.

[ptgb]

I tried the Ultimate Low Boy first, you sit lower but for me the "dance floor" was rather crowded...

Well said sir! 

And true..... go with a Russell Day Long.... you won't regret it... nobody does.

[Raider]

Braided.  They feel better.  I'm just going to agree with the posts above.

Seats: I had a stocker (terrible), then a Corbin (beautiful with studs and conchos) with the backrest, then an Ultimate Big Boy. 

I got to the Inzane while riding on my Corbin and parked next to a guy with an Ultimate.  First time I had seen one up close.  I asked him if that was the Ultimate and how he liked it.  He said he loved it, and asked if I liked my Corbin.  I said sure, and offered him to throw a leg over the bike.  He sat down and politely told me that it was pretty comfortable.  He returned the favor and when my butt touched the seat, I knew I had bought the wrong one! 

Thankfully, I had bought the Corbin used and was able to recoup my money and buy a used Ultimate for the same price plus the stock seat that was occupying space in my garage.

My recommendation- go to Inzane and check out many seats.  Most guys will probably be as polite as the gentleman I met.

[Gryphon Rider]

yea. seen that response many times, it has always been refuted by many brake experts. I think a better explanation below.
  and u NEVER use rope to tow vehicles or dangle them from a crane.

Factory rubber lines are not reinforced like stainless lines, therefore when pressure builds in them, they will expand outward. That expansion results in a spongy or squishy pedal feel. By upgrading to a set of stainless steel lines over the factory rubber lines, you will reduce the outward expansion of the line. This in turn will reduce the spongy feel in your brake pedal and give you a more accurate pedal feel. An accurate pedal feel will allow for more sensitive braking adjustments and will also increase pedal feedback into the system.
https://www.americanmuscle.com/rubber-vs-stainless-steel-brake-lines.html

Any time that an object is subjected to internal pressure, it expands. The amount of expansion will be proportional to the amount of pressure present and the rigidity of the holding structure. In the case of brake hoses, we are subjecting Teflon to internal pressures as high as 3000PSI. Because the Teflon is relatively flexible (which makes it ideal for the job in one regard), it will expand under these conditions. This expansion creates additional fluid volume in the hydraulic circuit which is felt by the driver as a soft or mushy pedal.

Rubber overmolding does little to reduce expansion under pressure, as rubber is also a relatively flexible material. A woven braid of Stainless Steel, however, can greatly increase the rigidity of the hose under pressure while still allowing adequate flexibility for wheel end movement. In many cases, this reduced expansion can be felt by the driver as a firmer or more responsive brake pedal.

In addition, the reduced compliance will result in a faster transient response of the brake system. In other words, the time from the driver hitting the brake pedal until deceleration is generated will be decreased by a small amount. The benefit will vary based on each individual application, but in general overall deceleration can be attained more quickly, resulting in slightly shorter stopping distances.
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/stainless-steel-brake-lines-q-a

That's funny; nothing of the experts you quoted refutes anything I said.  It's simple physics; in a hydraulic system, the pressure you apply at one point will result in an exactly equal pressure being exerted on every other surface the fluid contacts, even if there is expansion in the container of the fluid caused by the applied pressure.

And, Vaquero, if you don't feel comfortable using a tow rope, feel free to pull out your AMA card and wait for a tow truck.  What I said about tow ropes wasn't a recommendation, but an illustration to help you, and perhaps others, understand a concept in hydraulics.  While I have used tow ropes safely on many occasions, I'll admit I've never used one to dangle a car from a crane, although it sounds like fun.

[Gavin_Sons]

yea. seen that response many times, it has always been refuted by many brake experts. I think a better explanation below.
  and u NEVER use rope to tow vehicles or dangle them from a crane.

Factory rubber lines are not reinforced like stainless lines, therefore when pressure builds in them, they will expand outward. That expansion results in a spongy or squishy pedal feel. By upgrading to a set of stainless steel lines over the factory rubber lines, you will reduce the outward expansion of the line. This in turn will reduce the spongy feel in your brake pedal and give you a more accurate pedal feel. An accurate pedal feel will allow for more sensitive braking adjustments and will also increase pedal feedback into the system.
https://www.americanmuscle.com/rubber-vs-stainless-steel-brake-lines.html

Any time that an object is subjected to internal pressure, it expands. The amount of expansion will be proportional to the amount of pressure present and the rigidity of the holding structure. In the case of brake hoses, we are subjecting Teflon to internal pressures as high as 3000PSI. Because the Teflon is relatively flexible (which makes it ideal for the job in one regard), it will expand under these conditions. This expansion creates additional fluid volume in the hydraulic circuit which is felt by the driver as a soft or mushy pedal.

Rubber overmolding does little to reduce expansion under pressure, as rubber is also a relatively flexible material. A woven braid of Stainless Steel, however, can greatly increase the rigidity of the hose under pressure while still allowing adequate flexibility for wheel end movement. In many cases, this reduced expansion can be felt by the driver as a firmer or more responsive brake pedal.

In addition, the reduced compliance will result in a faster transient response of the brake system. In other words, the time from the driver hitting the brake pedal until deceleration is generated will be decreased by a small amount. The benefit will vary based on each individual application, but in general overall deceleration can be attained more quickly, resulting in slightly shorter stopping distances.
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/stainless-steel-brake-lines-q-a

That's funny; nothing of the experts you quoted refutes anything I said.  It's simple physics; in a hydraulic system, the pressure you apply at one point will result in an exactly equal pressure being exerted on every other surface the fluid contacts, even if there is expansion in the container of the fluid caused by the applied pressure.

And, Vaquero, if you don't feel comfortable using a tow rope, feel free to pull out your AMA card and wait for a tow truck.  What I said about tow ropes wasn't a recommendation, but an illustration to help you, and perhaps others, understand a concept in hydraulics.  While I have used tow ropes safely on many occasions, I'll admit I've never used one to dangle a car from a crane, although it sounds like fun.

who cares? the braided lines do feel better. Get a set and forget what everyone says. 

[98valk]

yea. seen that response many times, it has always been refuted by many brake experts. I think a better explanation below.
  and u NEVER use rope to tow vehicles or dangle them from a crane.

Factory rubber lines are not reinforced like stainless lines, therefore when pressure builds in them, they will expand outward. That expansion results in a spongy or squishy pedal feel. By upgrading to a set of stainless steel lines over the factory rubber lines, you will reduce the outward expansion of the line. This in turn will reduce the spongy feel in your brake pedal and give you a more accurate pedal feel. An accurate pedal feel will allow for more sensitive braking adjustments and will also increase pedal feedback into the system.
https://www.americanmuscle.com/rubber-vs-stainless-steel-brake-lines.html

Any time that an object is subjected to internal pressure, it expands. The amount of expansion will be proportional to the amount of pressure present and the rigidity of the holding structure. In the case of brake hoses, we are subjecting Teflon to internal pressures as high as 3000PSI. Because the Teflon is relatively flexible (which makes it ideal for the job in one regard), it will expand under these conditions. This expansion creates additional fluid volume in the hydraulic circuit which is felt by the driver as a soft or mushy pedal.

Rubber overmolding does little to reduce expansion under pressure, as rubber is also a relatively flexible material. A woven braid of Stainless Steel, however, can greatly increase the rigidity of the hose under pressure while still allowing adequate flexibility for wheel end movement. In many cases, this reduced expansion can be felt by the driver as a firmer or more responsive brake pedal.

In addition, the reduced compliance will result in a faster transient response of the brake system. In other words, the time from the driver hitting the brake pedal until deceleration is generated will be decreased by a small amount. The benefit will vary based on each individual application, but in general overall deceleration can be attained more quickly, resulting in slightly shorter stopping distances.
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/stainless-steel-brake-lines-q-a

That's funny; nothing of the experts you quoted refutes anything I said.  It's simple physics; in a hydraulic system, the pressure you apply at one point will result in an exactly equal pressure being exerted on every other surface the fluid contacts, even if there is expansion in the container of the fluid caused by the applied pressure.

And, Vaquero, if you don't feel comfortable using a tow rope, feel free to pull out your AMA card and wait for a tow truck.  What I said about tow ropes wasn't a recommendation, but an illustration to help you, and perhaps others, understand a concept in hydraulics.  While I have used tow ropes safely on many occasions, I'll admit I've never used one to dangle a car from a crane, although it sounds like fun.

and basically what I wrote was the same. I just kept it short and to the point. I'm not posting on an engineering site.

take a class III crane operator course and basic rigger course. only weight rated straps should be used, NEVER ROPE. I've seen what happens with rope. And it ain't pretty in equipment and lives.

[Pappy!]

I am 5' 9" - have the 11.5" shocks and an Ultimate Big Boy. Perfect set-up for me. Have done many multi-day rides with that combination. Enough to tell you it is the hot set up for me.

[Gryphon Rider]

I don't want to go back through this thread to see if it's been discussed here, but I have read suggestions to buy or offers to sell a used Russell Day-Long saddle.  Because Russell makes a point of getting the rider's measurements and photos of his riding position in order to custom make the saddle for him, wouldn't it be naïve to think that a made-to-measure Russell saddle is going to work well for a different rider?

[Wizzard]

I don't want to go back through this thread to see if it's been discussed here, but I have read suggestions to buy or offers to sell a used Russell Day-Long saddle.  Because Russell makes a point of getting the rider's measurements and photos of his riding position in order to custom make the saddle for him, wouldn't it be naïve to think that a made-to-measure Russell saddle is going to work well for a different rider?

Good point. I have often wondered that myself.

[Fazer]

I have the Ultimate Big Boy (6-1, 207) and like it just fine.  I have not ridden with any other seats, so I really can't compare.  Longest one day ride so far was 410 miles and with the air hawk cushion, I was just fine.  I would like to try a Russel, but for the amount of riding I do, the Big Boy is just fine.

BTW--this is the second one for me.  The first that came with the bike broke where it attaches to the locking mechanism.  Is still sits on the bike, but does not lock--I rode it like that for a season.  I also have the back rest for it.  The back rest is an older design that is not compatible with the new seat.  I will gladly let both go for the cost of shipping if someone wants to try the Big Boy before buying.

Send me a PM if you are interested.  Guestimating about $50 to ship UPS.

[MarkT]

I don't want to go back through this thread to see if it's been discussed here, but I have read suggestions to buy or offers to sell a used Russell Day-Long saddle.  Because Russell makes a point of getting the rider's measurements and photos of his riding position in order to custom make the saddle for him, wouldn't it be naïve to think that a made-to-measure Russell saddle is going to work well for a different rider?

You could get lucky and have dimensions close to the original rider's.  I think Misfit had a situation like that - IIRC.  Where a bike passing thru his stable had a Russell and it was OK for him.  Correct me if I'm remembering this wrong.  Also the Russell is just designed well in the first place - supports your whole butt like a tractor seat w/o pressure points.  I know I'm never selling mine.  I do worry about vandals slashing it - esp with the NRA sticker on the shield which may upset teenagers lately.  I was going to add the same sticker to Deerslayer but since Florida, decided not to.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I don't want to go back through this thread to see if it's been discussed here, but I have read suggestions to buy or offers to sell a used Russell Day-Long saddle.  Because Russell makes a point of getting the rider's measurements and photos of his riding position in order to custom make the saddle for him, wouldn't it be naïve to think that a made-to-measure Russell saddle is going to work well for a different rider?

Good point. I have often wondered that myself.

Personally, I wouldn’t buy a used one unless I was within a couple inches in height and 10 lbs. of weight.