Do you own a Taurus handgun? Please be careful and have it checked

[dinosnake]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-02-28/how-defective-guns-became-the-only-product-that-can-t-be-recalled

[Serk]

What a misleading and deceptive headline.

How Defective Guns Became the Only Product That Can’t Be Recalled

If they can't be recalled, how come they have been, er... recalled???
And people wonder why many don't trust the liberal media.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/08/robert-farago/taurus-recalls-nearly-1m-pistols-pt-111-millennium-pt-132-millennium-pt-138-millennium-pt-140-millennium-pt-145-millennium-pt-745-millennium-pt-609-pt-640-and-pt-247/

https://bearingarms.com/jenn-j/2017/03/22/walther-recalls-ccp-over-drop-fire-concerns/

http://www.gunsandammo.com/personal-defense/update-springfield-armory-xd-s-recall/

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/6/8/ruger-mark-iv-safety-recall/

And for what it's worth, if your post was made out of a sincere desire to make sure anyone with an in scope firearm gets it checked out and fixed, thanks. Consider my post just an extension of that by listing other recent firearm recalls.

[Wizzard]

This does not surprise me at all. 

[Gavin_Sons]

   Another misinformed liberal trying to spread his left propaganda.

[Gavin_Sons]

I own a Taurus and it will not go off without pulling the trigger.

[Gavin_Sons]

Here are the so called defective ones

PT-111 Millennium, PT-132 Millennium, PT-138 Millennium, PT-140 Millennium, PT-145 Millennium, PT-745 Millennium, PT-24/7, PT-609, and PT-640.

Oh look, this matches Serks link to the ones that were recalled. 

[solo1]

The key word is BLOOMBERG,  nothing from them is the truth.

I just received my Sig 320 back after a suggested recall.  There and back in four days.

The media is full of LIARS, LIARS, LIARS and ill informed trouble seekers who believe them.

[MAD6Gun]

 When I bought my first Ruger LCP a recall came up that said it could fire if dropped. Ruger sent me a box to send it back so they could fix it. When I got it back included was anot her mag and a hat. Any decent fire arm manufacturer would recall and do any gun that is defective. To say otherwise is pure liberal bias....

[Chrisj CMA]

When I bought my first Ruger LCP a recall came up that said it could fire if dropped. Ruger sent me a box to send it back so they could fix it. When I got it back included was anot her mag and a hat. Any decent fire arm manufacturer would recall and do any gun that is defective. To say otherwise is pure liberal bias....

Exactly! 

[Psychotic Bovine]

I think the OP is just trying to spread half-truths to further his own bias.
I will go out on a limb here and say that the firearms industry is probably the most self-regulated industry out there.  Every manufacturer, as far as I have ever heard, takes the issues of unintended discharge very seriously.  And gun makers can be sued.  They are just protected from being sued (and justly) by shysters who would try to make a buck off of tragedy and blame them for criminal misuse of their products (or destroying legitimate companies for political reasons (defacto ban on firearms)).  Imagine if GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc could be sued for drunk driving deaths?  Or sued for their product being used as a getaway vehicle in a bank robbery.

[Psychotic Bovine]

And while on this subject, will add my opinion of why I think (if it's true) the government cannot force recalls of firearms.  Imagine the head of the CPSC being seriously anti-gun.  He could force a recall of a Constitutionally protected product (or nearly all firearms due to inherent danger) , basically making an end run around the 2nd Amendment.  There would be no vote and no oversight. I know, I know, no government appointee would ever use their agency to violate constitutional rights (cough cough, Lois Lerner, cough cough).
Now, imagine if the FTC not only had the power to regulate false advertising from companies, but to ban outright falsehoods from the news media.  Effectively making an end-run around the 1st Amendment freedom of the press. 
Yeah, there is a reason why things aren't done as the OP would like in this country.

[3fan4life]

What a misleading and deceptive headline.

How Defective Guns Became the Only Product That Can’t Be Recalled

If they can't be recalled, how come they have been, er... recalled???
And people wonder why many don't trust the liberal media.

Consider the source........... 

Some people really do make it hard to adhere to the rules of the road around here. 

[Sorcerer]

Hear in lies the difference between a series 70& series 80 1911. My PT 1911 has been to Florida 4 times because a number of broken parts.A firearm in like any other tool. You check the things that are supposed to be safety items. On a bike I check the breaks at the BOTTOM of the drive, before I enter the roadway. On Springer XD I test each safety,trigger safety, grip safety. 1911s, manual safety, grip safety. However I’m not throwing them on the ground.

[Jess from VA]

But I think the series '70 colts are better firearms (with better triggers, before work) than the '80s, and I never sent my Ruger Super Blackhawk back for the free transfer bar, and I'm not sending my new Sig 320 back either. 

I know safe gun handling, I don't drop them on the pavement (or elsewhere) (especially loaded) (or 30 times until I can get a discharge).  And I've never had an unexplained discharge.  Had a few bad primers to deal with (not the gun's fault, though it could be).

And I'm not worried one bit.

Not to say I would not take a mfgr up on a recall, if I though I should. 

[Serk]

I'm not sending my new Sig 320 back either. 

Send that 320 back. We all try to be safe and try to not drop our guns, but it really doesn't take much for an unmodified 320 to fire drop a drop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsljmVh-GFQ

[dinosnake]

What a misleading and deceptive headline.

How Defective Guns Became the Only Product That Can’t Be Recalled

If they can't be recalled, how come they have been, er... recalled???
And people wonder why many don't trust the liberal media.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/08/robert-farago/taurus-recalls-nearly-1m-pistols-pt-111-millennium-pt-132-millennium-pt-138-millennium-pt-140-millennium-pt-145-millennium-pt-745-millennium-pt-609-pt-640-and-pt-247/

https://bearingarms.com/jenn-j/2017/03/22/walther-recalls-ccp-over-drop-fire-concerns/

http://www.gunsandammo.com/personal-defense/update-springfield-armory-xd-s-recall/

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/6/8/ruger-mark-iv-safety-recall/

And for what it's worth, if your post was made out of a sincere desire to make sure anyone with an in scope firearm gets it checked out and fixed, thanks. Consider my post just an extension of that by listing other recent firearm recalls.

If everyone would read the full article, rather than having a knee-jerk reaction:

The point of the article is not that gun recalls can't happen, it is that the recalls are all VOLUNTARY.  The article points to the fact that the federal government does not have the regulatory power to demand or force the manufacturer to recall a defective firearm product, just about the ONLY consumer product which that statement can be made.

Anyway, i hope that everyone with the recalled Taurus handguns are keeping safe and had their weapons properly checked and repaired, if needed  

[Gavin_Sons]

What a misleading and deceptive headline.

How Defective Guns Became the Only Product That Can’t Be Recalled

If they can't be recalled, how come they have been, er... recalled???
And people wonder why many don't trust the liberal media.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/08/robert-farago/taurus-recalls-nearly-1m-pistols-pt-111-millennium-pt-132-millennium-pt-138-millennium-pt-140-millennium-pt-145-millennium-pt-745-millennium-pt-609-pt-640-and-pt-247/

https://bearingarms.com/jenn-j/2017/03/22/walther-recalls-ccp-over-drop-fire-concerns/

http://www.gunsandammo.com/personal-defense/update-springfield-armory-xd-s-recall/

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/6/8/ruger-mark-iv-safety-recall/

And for what it's worth, if your post was made out of a sincere desire to make sure anyone with an in scope firearm gets it checked out and fixed, thanks. Consider my post just an extension of that by listing other recent firearm recalls.

If everyone would read the full article, rather than having a knee-jerk reaction:

The point if the article is not that the gun recalls can't happen, it is that the recalls are all VOLUNTARY.  The article points to the fact that the federal government does not have the regulatory power to demand or force the manufacturer to recall a defective firearm product, just about the ONLY consumer product which that statement can be made.

Anyway, i hope that everyone with the recalled Taurus handguns are keeping safe and had their weapons properly checked and repaired, if needed 

Thanks for the concern but like Serk said, the gun industry is the biggest self regulated business in the world. Why do we need government to step in and ruin it? The government ruins everything they touch. Example: Healthcare.

[dinosnake]

Thanks for the concern but like Serk said, the gun industry is the biggest self regulated business in the world. Why do we need government to step in and ruin it? The government ruins everything they touch. Example: Healthcare.

Because that is a very brainwashed statement to make, if only you would bother to learn actual history?

"The government ruins everything they touch" - FALSE.

Example: BOTH car and airline safety.

Case rests, and dismissed.

[Serk]

If everyone would read the full article, rather than having a knee-jerk reaction:

The point of the article is not that gun recalls can't happen, it is that the recalls are all VOLUNTARY.  The article points to the fact that the federal government does not have the regulatory power to demand or force the manufacturer to recall a defective firearm product, just about the ONLY consumer product which that statement can be made.

I read the article and understand the gist of it, but you don't think that having a headline that screams:

How Defective Guns Became the Only Product That Can’t Be Recalled

is at least a wee bit misleading and disingenuous?

[dinosnake]

I read the article and understand the gist of it, but you don't think that having a headline that screams:

How Defective Guns Became the Only Product That Can’t Be Recalled

is at least a wee bit misleading and disingenuous?

Yeah, I'll agree, sensationalist headline.

[Gavin_Sons]

Thanks for the concern but like Serk said, the gun industry is the biggest self regulated business in the world. Why do we need government to step in and ruin it? The government ruins everything they touch. Example: Healthcare.

Because that is a very brainwashed statement to make, if only you would bother to learn actual history?

"The government ruins everything they touch" - FALSE.

Example: BOTH car and airline safety.

Case rests, and dismissed.

Imagine how good it would be if the government did not have any input.

[dinosnake]

Imagine how good it would be if the government did not have any input.

Yep.  We already know the answer by historical proof:

More people would be dead.  But at least the corporations would be making more money.

(see: Ford Pinto memo, Unsafe at Any Speed, Turkish Air 981, Cocoanut Grove, Triangle Waistshirt. Titanic...)

You're talking to the wrong person if you think you can make a point that the government is "intrusive" in regards to health and safety: my personal interest is failure analysis & disaster forensics.  ???  My "light" reading would make your head explode.

[Serk]

Of course the private licensing systems in place for things like skydiving and scuba, where it's PRIVATE ENTERPRISE setting the standards, licensing requirements, and have a voluntary moratorium on selling or renting gear to non-licensed people would be far better if the heavy boot of government regulation was placed on it's throat, right?

[dinosnake]

Of course the private licensing systems in place for things like skydiving and scuba, where it's PRIVATE ENTERPRISE setting the standards, licensing requirements, and have a voluntary moratorium on selling or renting gear to non-licensed people would be far better if the heavy boot of government regulation was placed on it's throat, right?

There are no regulations of those activities because the are not needed, contrary to conservative fearmongering if you notice the government does NOT get involved in every aspect of life.  Are there laws regarding running, and running shoes?  Baking a cake?  Bicycling?

It only involves itself when things have wide-ranging repercussions

[Serk]

Are there laws regarding running, and running shoes?  Baking a cake?  Bicycling?

Running:
Numerous laws regarding "jaywalking", regulating what side of the road, or if a runner must stay on or off of sidewalks are in place, just at a quick glance.

Shoes:
Some of the federal regulations I quickly found regarding footwear - https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2016-Apr/icp022_3.pdf

Baking a cake:
Um. Yeah. Do you REALLY wanna open THAT can of worms? A FEW examples:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2017/12/bakers_sue_nj_for_right_to_sell_their_goods.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2016/01/26/baking-bad-selling-homemade-cakes-and-cookies-could-mean-criminal-penalties-in-wisconsin/#48eb168c578f

http://www.wbko.com/content/news/Kentucky-law-makes-selling-homemade-cakes-illegal-in-most-cases-441722663.html

And I'm not even gonna bother to link to the multiple examples of the gay gestapo forcing people to bake cakes they don't want to bake.

Bicycling:
Here's a nice listing state by state of some of the laws restricting and over-regulating bicycling in this nation - https://bikeleague.org/StateBikeLaws

There is almost no aspect of modern life that the heavy hand of big government doesn't get involved and make things worse.

[3fan4life]

The government does NOT get involved in every aspect of life....................... It only involves itself when things have wide-ranging repercussions

If that was a true statement, we'd all be better off.

Unfortunately, it could not be further from the truth.

[3fan4life]

There is almost no aspect of modern life that the heavy hand of big government doesn't get involved and make things worse.

Sadly, That is the Cold Hard Truth.

[Wizzard]

Like one of my fav POTUS said. The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

Government is like a baby. An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other.

[Gavin_Sons]

Imagine how good it would be if the government did not have any input.

Yep.  We already know the answer by historical proof:

More people would be dead.  But at least the corporations would be making more money.

(see: Ford Pinto memo, Unsafe at Any Speed, Turkish Air 981, Cocoanut Grove, Triangle Waistshirt. Titanic...)

You're talking to the wrong person if you think you can make a point that the government is "intrusive" in regards to health and safety: my personal interest is failure analysis & disaster forensics.  ???  My "light" reading would make your head explode.

  I have seen the "light reading" you post, Just recently, oh yeah this thread. Ignorance. So you should see how gun laws in America Fail. And your answer to them is more gun laws? Boy you must work for some heavy left wing politicians. Do you work for Diane Feinstein?

[dinosnake]

Are there laws regarding running, and running shoes?  Baking a cake?  Bicycling?

Running:
Numerous laws regarding "jaywalking", regulating what side of the road, or if a runner must stay on or off of sidewalks are in place, just at a quick glance.

Shoes:
Some of the federal regulations I quickly found regarding footwear - https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2016-Apr/icp022_3.pdf

Baking a cake:
Um. Yeah. Do you REALLY wanna open THAT can of worms? A FEW examples:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2017/12/bakers_sue_nj_for_right_to_sell_their_goods.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2016/01/26/baking-bad-selling-homemade-cakes-and-cookies-could-mean-criminal-penalties-in-wisconsin/#48eb168c578f

http://www.wbko.com/content/news/Kentucky-law-makes-selling-homemade-cakes-illegal-in-most-cases-441722663.html

And I'm not even gonna bother to link to the multiple examples of the gay gestapo forcing people to bake cakes they don't want to bake.

Bicycling:
Here's a nice listing state by state of some of the laws restricting and over-regulating bicycling in this nation - https://bikeleague.org/StateBikeLaws

There is almost no aspect of modern life that the heavy hand of big government doesn't get involved and make things worse.

Your post only PROVES the point, not deny it!!!  The rules you state affect populations, a LARGE effect.  Footwear laws?  To be sure manufactures do the right thing - the government does tell you how to WEAR them, does it??!

The baker example??  Please!  It is a BUSINESS question.

STOP TRYING TO PLAY CHICKEN LITTLE WITH THE FEAR MONGERING.

I'm sorry that i can't be like you.  Sorry that i can't be BRAINWASHED by politicians to fear anything that isn't me.  Because, OF COURSE, a conservative that you give your vote to will save you from the horrible liberal, feminist, socialist, immigrant, Mexican, black, gay, Euro-trash, Chinese, atheist, Jew, anti-gun, progressive, city slicker, Millennial evil person du-jour.

All the while, after making you fear *social * change, they sell you a constant stream of ever-changing consumer goods, making you wait in anticipation of the Next Great Toy.  But keeping you frightened out of your delicate little snowflake minds of any other change you can't agree with.

Because you always need to fear if we're to stay in power.

The fear in this board is palpable.  Always scared of the next thing.   It's amazing you go out at all.  How can you stand when the weather forecast isn't accurate?

[Gavin_Sons]

Are there laws regarding running, and running shoes?  Baking a cake?  Bicycling?

Running:
Numerous laws regarding "jaywalking", regulating what side of the road, or if a runner must stay on or off of sidewalks are in place, just at a quick glance.

Shoes:
Some of the federal regulations I quickly found regarding footwear - https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2016-Apr/icp022_3.pdf

Baking a cake:
Um. Yeah. Do you REALLY wanna open THAT can of worms? A FEW examples:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2017/12/bakers_sue_nj_for_right_to_sell_their_goods.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2016/01/26/baking-bad-selling-homemade-cakes-and-cookies-could-mean-criminal-penalties-in-wisconsin/#48eb168c578f

http://www.wbko.com/content/news/Kentucky-law-makes-selling-homemade-cakes-illegal-in-most-cases-441722663.html

And I'm not even gonna bother to link to the multiple examples of the gay gestapo forcing people to bake cakes they don't want to bake.

Bicycling:
Here's a nice listing state by state of some of the laws restricting and over-regulating bicycling in this nation - https://bikeleague.org/StateBikeLaws

There is almost no aspect of modern life that the heavy hand of big government doesn't get involved and make things worse.

Your post only PROVES the point, not deny it!!!  The rules you state affect populations, a LARGE effect.  Footwear laws?  To be sure manufactures do the right thing - the government does tell you how to WEAR them, does it??!

The baker example??  Please!  It is a BUSINESS question.

STOP TRYING TO PLAY CHICKEN LITTLE WITH THE FEAR MONGERING.

I'm sorry that i can't be like you.  Sorry that i can't be BRAINWASHED by politicians to fear anything that isn't me.  Because, OF COURSE, a conservative that you give your vote to will save you from the horrible liberal, feminist, socialist, immigrant, Mexican, black, gay, Euro-trash, Chinese, atheist, Jew, anti-gun, progressive, city slicker, Millennial evil person du-jour.

All the while, after making you fear *social * change, they sell you a constant stream of ever-changing consumer goods, making you wait in anticipation of the Next Great Toy.  But keeping you frightened out of your delicate little snowflake minds of any other change you can't agree with.

Because you always need to fear if we're to stay in power.

The fear in this board is palpable.  Always scared of the next thing.   It's amazing you go out at all.  How can you stand when the weather forecast isn't accurate?

Yep we're the scared ones. Just because we don't want government ran everything we are scared? I think not. Seems you and your party are the scared ones. If you have to tell us how we are scared it is truly a cry for help on your side.  

[Serk]

I'm sorry that i can't be like you.  Sorry that i can't be BRAINWASHED by politicians to fear anything that isn't me.  Because, OF COURSE, a conservative that you give your vote to will save you from the horrible liberal, feminist, socialist, immigrant, Mexican, black, gay, Euro-trash, Chinese, atheist, Jew, anti-gun, progressive, city slicker, Millennial evil person du-jour.

All the while, after making you fear *social * change, they sell you a constant stream of ever-changing consumer goods, making you wait in anticipation of the Next Great Toy.  But keeping you frightened out of your delicate little snowflake minds of any other change you can't agree with.

Because you always need to fear if we're to stay in power.

The fear in this board is palpable.  Always scared of the next thing.   It's amazing you go out at all.  How can you stand when the weather forecast isn't accurate?

[Wizzard]

Your post only PROVES the point, not deny it!!!  The rules you state affect populations, a LARGE effect.  Footwear laws?  To be sure manufactures do the right thing - the government does tell you how to WEAR them, does it??!

The baker example??  Please!  It is a BUSINESS question.

STOP TRYING TO PLAY CHICKEN LITTLE WITH THE FEAR MONGERING.

I'm sorry that i can't be like you.  Sorry that i can't be BRAINWASHED by politicians to fear anything that isn't me.  Because, OF COURSE, a conservative that you give your vote to will save you from the horrible liberal, feminist, socialist, immigrant, Mexican, black, gay, Euro-trash, Chinese, atheist, Jew, anti-gun, progressive, city slicker, Millennial evil person du-jour.

All the while, after making you fear *social * change, they sell you a constant stream of ever-changing consumer goods, making you wait in anticipation of the Next Great Toy.  But keeping you frightened out of your delicate little snowflake minds of any other change you can't agree with.

Because you always need to fear if we're to stay in power.

The fear in this board is palpable.  Always scared of the next thing.   It's amazing you go out at all.  How can you stand when the weather forecast isn't accurate?

Got to say it like it is IMO  what a crock of crap

[solo1]

My "light" reading would make your head explode.Quote by Dynosnake

Note the air of superiority by the 'snake

As a retired associate environmental test engineer, i had to smile at that.  I made my living at testing and was involved in failure analysis.  

BTW the quote of a book by Ralph Nader that killed the Chevy Corvair was mostly drivel by a civilian, not the governemnt.

I will ,however, agree partly about government. In the producing of gear for the Military ( where I was involved), the stringent requirements for performance by the Federal government made a lot of sense.

However as I was also an elected official upon retirement, a lot of city regulations were brought about by one ignorant person's demands and a politician who wanted his/her vote.

[Jess from VA]

There is almost no aspect of modern life that the heavy hand of big government doesn't get involved and make things worse.

Sadly, That is the Cold Hard Truth.

Sometime if you get a chance, walk through a law library and find complete sets of (just) the United States Code Annotated (USCA - federal statutes), and the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR - Federal Regulations) (that implement the US Code).  It is a shitload of books and paper, and they are continuously being updated.

See, the Federal Laws (statutes) are never considered complete or explained or procedured enough, so there has to be whole volumes of regulations to explain what they mean, flesh out detail, split hairs.  Congress passes laws (for a living), and then whole armies of civil servants in the various federal department bureaucracies spend their days working on administratively adding new and improved regulations implementing those statutes (for a living).

Why, if Congress wasn't passing new laws, and civil servants weren't  creating new regulations, they wouldn't be doing their jobs, and people might think they weren't needed any more, and cut thier budgets.

Now for nearly 20 years, I worked for HQ Veterans Affairs, at the Board of Veteran's Appeals, with about 500 lawyers and administrative staff, and nearly all of our work was governed by only 2 volumes of 38 United States Code Annotated, and 2 volumes of 38 Code of Federal Regulations.  Also all the VA Regional Offices (in each of the 50 states) claims adjudication staffs, and the United States Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims (created in 1988), also spend most of their time deciding cases based on only two volumes of the 38 USCA and CFR.  We all had to consult other federal laws and regulations from time to time, but most of the work is based on only 38 USCA and 38 CFR.

Now imagine all the additional bureaucracy involved in administering the rest of the US Code and CFR.  

I will not say that all of these laws and regulations make life worse (many clearly do), but they sure make life complicated, and expensive, and provide solid gainful employment for armies of people, and law schools, and courts, and lawyers, and administrative staff, and paper mills, and tax collectors, and....

If you like a little light reading, find some other isles in your library.




Wm Shakespeare was the first one to write that the first thing we need to do is kill all the lawyers (somewhere clear back around 1600, so it's clearly not a new idea, or problem).  And he was by no means the last.  That may be a bit extreme, but then again the idea may have some merit.  We will have to look into creating a new law and regulations though before we can start the process.  With any luck, they might find a way to create a whole new department and bureaucracy to get it done.  But most of the work will be done by lawyers, so don't expect any real results for a few hundred years or so.

[MAD6Gun]

Are there laws regarding running, and running shoes?  Baking a cake?  Bicycling?

Running:
Numerous laws regarding "jaywalking", regulating what side of the road, or if a runner must stay on or off of sidewalks are in place, just at a quick glance.

Shoes:
Some of the federal regulations I quickly found regarding footwear - https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2016-Apr/icp022_3.pdf

Baking a cake:
Um. Yeah. Do you REALLY wanna open THAT can of worms? A FEW examples:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2017/12/bakers_sue_nj_for_right_to_sell_their_goods.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2016/01/26/baking-bad-selling-homemade-cakes-and-cookies-could-mean-criminal-penalties-in-wisconsin/#48eb168c578f

http://www.wbko.com/content/news/Kentucky-law-makes-selling-homemade-cakes-illegal-in-most-cases-441722663.html

And I'm not even gonna bother to link to the multiple examples of the gay gestapo forcing people to bake cakes they don't want to bake.

Bicycling:
Here's a nice listing state by state of some of the laws restricting and over-regulating bicycling in this nation - https://bikeleague.org/StateBikeLaws

There is almost no aspect of modern life that the heavy hand of big government doesn't get involved and make things worse.

Your post only PROVES the point, not deny it!!!  The rules you state affect populations, a LARGE effect.  Footwear laws?  To be sure manufactures do the right thing - the government does tell you how to WEAR them, does it??!

The baker example??  Please!  It is a BUSINESS question.

STOP TRYING TO PLAY CHICKEN LITTLE WITH THE FEAR MONGERING.

I'm sorry that i can't be like you.  Sorry that i can't be BRAINWASHED by politicians to fear anything that isn't me.  Because, OF COURSE, a conservative that you give your vote to will save you from the horrible liberal, feminist, socialist, immigrant, Mexican, black, gay, Euro-trash, Chinese, atheist, Jew, anti-gun, progressive, city slicker, Millennial evil person du-jour.

All the while, after making you fear *social * change, they sell you a constant stream of ever-changing consumer goods, making you wait in anticipation of the Next Great Toy.  But keeping you frightened out of your delicate little snowflake minds of any other change you can't agree with.

Because you always need to fear if we're to stay in power.

The fear in this board is palpable.  Always scared of the next thing.   It's amazing you go out at all.  How can you stand when the weather forecast isn't accurate?

 Wow. This coming from a person on the side of liberals who where so distraught over Trump being president that they cried like little babies when their girl lost. Have to go their happy places when they hear something that scares them. Oh and had to scream at the sky one year later like widdle girls.  Oh and can't forget you have to have trophies for participation because you don't want to lose. Did I miss anything? You say we are scared. You guys are scared of your own shadows. Your side uses fear mongering to a science. Give me a break.

 If you find the fear on the board palpable,why do you keep coming back?

[Serk]

“There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.”

--Ayn Rand

[baldo]

  Oh and can't forget you have to have trophies for precipitation because you don't want to loose.

Trophies for precipitation? Never heard of that. How does it work?

[Willow]

...
I'm sorry that i can't be like you.  Sorry that i can't be BRAINWASHED by politicians to fear anything that isn't me.  ...

Oh, but you are.  You definitely are.

[The emperor has no clothes]

  Oh and can't forget you have to have trophies for precipitation because you don't want to loose.

Trophies for precipitation? Never heard of that. How does it work?

When snowflakes land on your head, they form into the shape of a bowling trophy ?