Darkside

[Big Tom 10628]

Here is an interesting article I hope it hasn't been posted before..

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a8606/why-so-called-darksiders-prefer-auto-tires-on-their-motorcycles/?src=soc_fcbks

[The emperor has no clothes]

Tom, I liked the article. Especially the last sentence. Many probably won’t though. 

“In the end, try as we might to resist, we all end up on the Dark Side.”

[Fazer]

I went double dark side on my last tire change and am very satisfied so far.  ATT on rear and Dunlop 404 rear tire on front, installed with reverse rotation.  Not sure why, but it was suggested on this board by riders with more experience than me.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I went double dark side on my last tire change and am very satisfied so far.  ATT on rear and Dunlop 404 rear tire on front, installed with reverse rotation.  Not sure why, but it was suggested on this board by riders with more experience than me.

Better water dispersion in the rain. (But it never rains here) 

[MAD6Gun]

Tom, I liked the article. Especially the last sentence. Many probably won’t though. 

“In the end, try as we might to resist, we all end up on the Dark Side.”

 Nope. Never going to happen. I'm not saying you guys are going to die a flaming death for running a car tire. Have many Valk friends that do. I have riden two Valks that have darksides. One was my dad's after we removed the sidecar. It had a triple tread on it. Rode it for a couple of days. Didn't like it at all. Had to be forced to lean and felt like a weeble wobble coming back upright. The second was a taxi tire I installed on a members bike. Was much better than the triple but still felt funny. Again this is my opinion but I will stay with a bike tire..

[John Schmidt]

Tom, I liked the article. Especially the last sentence. Many probably won’t though. 

“In the end, try as we might to resist, we all end up on the Dark Side.”

 Nope. Never going to happen. I'm not saying you guys are going to die a flaming death for running a car tire. Have many Valk friends that do. I have riden two Valks that have darksides. One was my dad's after we removed the sidecar. It had a triple tread on it. Rode it for a couple of days. Didn't like it at all. Had to be forced to lean and felt like a weeble wobble coming back upright. The second was a taxi tire I installed on a members bike. Was much better than the triple but still felt funny. Again this is my opinion but I will stay with a bike tire..

FWIW, I didn't like the TT either, shoulders are too square and did exactly what you said. Thankfully, I tried it on a friend's bike and that's all it took to warn me away from that tire. My first one had more rounded shoulders, was better but no cigar. I now am running a Kumho 195/60-16(forget the model), great tire, handles like the m/t on the 1200 but has 3 times the traction...both stopping and running in wet weather. If you find the right tire, it will change your mind. If I can make it to IZ I'll let you take mine around the area, just to give you another point of reference. 

[msb]

I'm probably in the "never going to happen" camp, even though I grit my teeth every year or year and a bit when I fork over for new expensive (even more so up here in Canada) MC tires. Perhaps it's partially due to the fact I'm still working with a good income that I can "accept" the cost, but I think it's much more to the fact that my daily riding terrain is mostly mountains, hills, and curves on roads that are contoured for drainage or just from seasonal abuse. Also because after 16 years with this bike I've found the perfect combination of tires and air pressure to suit both my solo and 2-up riding style, and don't feel like experimenting or changing my riding techniques any more.
One rider's opinion......

[MarkT]

I've ridden about 6 different DS tires.  Most were 205/60 size; with rounded corners except the first which was a Goodyear Triple Tread - absolutely horrible handling.  Finally arrived at the Austone Taxi Tyre which is 175/75 profile (only available in one size) and I am completely happy with it.  The narrower profile is partly why the good behavior.  Lots of riding in the mountain twisties. Love the tall profile which drops the RPMs to 3500 at 85 indicated which delivers 34mpg.  Sticks very well in the wet.  Lasts over twice as long as the best mileage I ever got on an Avon which was 12k. Costs about the same as online bargain pricing for a Cobra.  Very much more durable, higher load rating, runs cooler and softer ride.  Handling is so close to identical to a Cobra I'm sticking with this back tire - have 2 more new ones on hand as I'm replacing Jade's when I get back from Inzane (will have around 24k thern) and replacing the Vredestein on Deerslayer when I get a round tuit.  YMMV but in general I say try this tire out if you haven't yet.  Most really like it.  I did put an extender on the bottom of my sidestand.

Incidently, Dbl-darksided; Bridgestone Batlax 130/90 rear tire in front, reverse mounted for the belt overlap issue.

[turtle254]

I've ridden about 6 different DS tires.  Most were 205/60 size; with rounded corners except the first which was a GYTT - absolutely horrible handling.  Finally arrived at the Austone TT which is 175/75 profile (only available in one size) and I am completely happy with it.  The narrower profile is partly why the good behavior.  Lots of riding in the mountain twisties. Love the tall profile which drops the RPMs to 3500 at 85 indicated which delivers 34mpg.  Sticks very well in the wet.  Lasts over twice as long as the best mileage I ever got on an Avon which was 12k. Costs about the same as online bargain pricing for a Cobra.  Very much more durable, higher load rating, runs cooler and softer ride.  Handling is so close to identical to a Cobra I'm sticking with this back tire - have 2 more new ones on hand as I'm replacing Jade's when I get back from Inzane (will have around 24k thern) and replacing the Vredestein on Deerslayer when I get a round tuit.  YMMV but in general I say try this tire out if you haven't yet.  Most really like it.  I did put an extender on the bottom of my sidestand.

Incidently, Dbl-darksided; Bridgestone Batlax 130/90 rear tire in front, reverse mounted for the belt overlap issue.

Got a pic of your " extender on the bottom of my sidestand"
I need one!

[hoosier jaybird]

I am curious. Have any of you darksiders been involved in a bike accident while running a car tire? How do the insurance companies look at running a car tire instead of a m/c tire. Have you had any companies disqualify any claims or coverage in that type of situation? Sounds like that could get pretty scary with lawsuits, medical expenses and all. Just wondering. 

[Jess from VA]

I am curious. Have any of you darksiders been involved in a bike accident while running a car tire? How do the insurance companies look at running a car tire instead of a m/c tire. Have you had any companies disqualify any claims or coverage in that type of situation? Sounds like that could get pretty scary with lawsuits, medical expenses and all. Just wondering.  

No one has ever yet had or reported any type of accident or injury that could be causally attributed to a car tire in back (in whole or even in part), as opposed to all the other reasons people crash out.  So the insurance company's have not had the opportunity to try and deny anyone coverage for such tire.

If it has ever happened, it has never been reported here, or in any other reliable (or unreliable) incident anywhere (and I, and I'm sure others, have looked).

VA like many states has annual safety inspections, and the only requirement for tires on cars or bikes is that they are DOT approved (or some such), and have the requisite amount of tread depth left.  To my knowledge, no state inspection nationwide has a bike-tire-only requirement for bikes.  Therefore, if you are running a DOT approved tire with enough tread, you are legal.  

It would be very difficult for an insurance co to say that following the requirements of the laws in every state in the union was unsafe or uninsurable.  If enough people riding on car tires starting wrecking, and it was shown all these wrecks were because of the car tire, then I'm sure they'd get started trying to deny them coverage.  It has not happened.

Car tires are better and safer than bike tires in back, period (at least on our big heavy cruisers).  Better traction, better grip, better in the wet/snow/sand/mud/gravel, better braking, better longevity, and a much stronger tire carcass (resisting puncture or blowout).  Another major advantage is car tires have a hugley better load rating than bike tires (back to stronger carcass), and this is important to those riders who go two-up all the time (at or above 200lbs apiece), packed with luggage, and maybe pulling loaded trailers (for thousands of miles).  All my car tires have balanced with less wheel weights than my bike tires required.  The only drawback extant is a small learning curve with a bit different handling than bike tires.  Most who change, never go back.  Some few don't like them and and do go back.  The learning curve or small differences in handling disturb a minority of those who try them.  No one who ever went back reported having an accident because of their car tire experiment.  They reported not liking them.

As I've typed before, NO ONE should go calling around a bunch of bike insurance companies (or government agencies, or politicians or bureaucrats) stirring the pot on those of us who use car tires.  We like them fine, they are presently legal everywhere, and insurable everywhere (in the US), and it should stay that way.  We don't need no stinking G (or insurance co) approval of our tire choice.  

[MarkT]

Got a pic of your " extender on the bottom of my sidestand"
I need one!

I just welded mine on.  I could make it as a user-installable product if there was interest.  However I'm not sure it's a good fit for my business.  I'm not a high-volume low cost manufacturer like say the Chinese are.  Eg., I design the product and bring it to market, there's a lot of interest / sales so the Chinese rip it off and sell it at below my lower volume cost to make it.  Now they've run me out of business (like Walmart does) and I've just done the Chinese product engineering and market testing for free and lost money.  Much as I like you guys I'm not making Valk products for the fun of it.  I make high-quality products that can't be cheaply ripped off by the Chinese.

Pretty sure you can find sidestand extenders online.
Actually I just looked, didn't find anything that is a "shoe" that lifts any amount.  Mine is the right lift for my bike with an ATT tire.

My one-off extender, not made for DIY installs, is welded-on thickwall SS tubing with bottom flattened.  Not very visible when retracted.

[RDKLL]

My next project 240/50-16...

[Willow]

I am curious. Have any of you darksiders been involved in a bike accident while running a car tire? How do the insurance companies look at running a car tire instead of a m/c tire. Have you had any companies disqualify any claims or coverage in that type of situation? Sounds like that could get pretty scary with lawsuits, medical expenses and all. Just wondering. 

I have, and honestly enough it could have been argued that the non-motorcycle specific tire may have contributed.  The insurance company never blinked.  It makes sense really.  If they would fight their responsibility based upon whether your equipment was acceptable wouldn't they make much more mileage refusing to pay if you were violating existing traffic laws.  How many times have insurance companies paid without making an issue of whether the participant was exceeding the PRV?

I've heard fears of but no instances of an insurance company in the U.S. making an issue of what kind of tires were on the motorcycle.     

[hoosier jaybird]

Thanks Carl. I didn't want to upset anyone by asking and I didn't want to single you out. It seems that whenever there is an out for a carrier they will take it. This has sparked my own curiosity. Tomorrow I am going to talk to my "like a good neighbor" agent about coverage if I were deciding to go darkside. You fellows that are comfortable running car tires, that's fine with me. To each his own.

[MarkT]

Thanks Carl. I didn't want to upset anyone by asking and I didn't want to single you out. It seems that whenever there is an out for a carrier they will take it. This has sparked my own curiosity. Tomorrow I am going to talk to my "like a good neighbor" agent about coverage if I were deciding to go darkside. You fellows that are comfortable running car tires, that's fine with me. To each his own.

I've had State Farm coverage forever.  Always has been fair and quick to pay off when needed.  The deer incident in 2001, they paid off $13,500 for my black standard repairs when I killed 2 deer with it.  I had bought the bike for $12,400.  But it had (has, still have it) a LOT of bling on it that was damaged which they covered w/o charging me more in premiums.  They did not ask or even care what tires or other equipment I was using.

I second Jess's suggestion of not stirring the pot.

[hoosier jaybird]

Yep, I didn't realize this was a hornets nest. I will talk to a couple insurance companies agents about the darkside issue. I would rather not rely on speculation. If there are no legal/policy infractions, so much the better. Thanks for the feed back. Jaybird. 

[Jess from VA]

If you will peruse the small print of (probably) any vehicular insurance policy, you may find some wording to the effect that if you do something completely stupid (nee careless, reckless, fraught with danger, intentional harm to others) they may (try to) deny coverage.  Also to my knowledge, this language has never been used to deny or attempt to deny coverage for an accident or injury by a rider running a car tire.  Of course, to do so, they would need to show evidence that the car tire was the cause or proximate cause of the accident or injury. 

None of my previous post was speculation.

By all means, call all over the place asking insurance companies about car tires on motorcycles.  If you find one person on the phone that has ever heard of it I'll be amazed.  In those conversations, attempt to distinguish between completely ignorant lay opinions by insurance salesmen vs knowledgeable expert opinions.  I'm sure if enough people raise this issue to insurance companies often enough, we can get some industry-wide prohibitions started for everyone.

[Hook#3287]

Gentlemen,

I just wrapped up an Engineering career that started in 1976.  As part of this, I have met engineers from Harley-Davidson, Honda Motorcycle Japan, Bridgestone, Michelin, and Shell.  These guys are educated, experienced, and have the latest design/analytical tools.  Simply put, they know their crap.  You'd be impressed to see how all aspects of a tire's construction are designed for a particular vehicle. The Bridgestone engineer told me: "we have designed a tire specifically for your motorcycle".  Personally, I can't second-guess these men.  But, go ahead, if you choose.

One interesting note:  Most of the applications engineers at Shell in Texas have motorcycles.  They use Rotella diesel engine oil.

Pluggy

Now you did it, added a oil rant into the dark side tire rant.

I don't think anyone doubts the knowledge or experience of those engineers, nor the abilities of the equipment they use.  I'm sure the controlled performance testing is done as well and in depth as possible.

But you can't ignore the real world experience and performance issued by the millions of miles of motorcycles using car tires.

You also have to consider the marketing depts of the motorcycle tire manufacturers, they're job is to sell tires and I'll bet they have considerable pressure to apply in the testing outcome reporting.

I will admit I had a c/t issue.  I had a blow out, due to a bolt or some such metal item, being picked up and wedged between the fender and the 205 tire.   It punchered the sidewall of the tire. 

But, because of the heavy side wall and the flat profile of the tire, I was able to just pull over with just a minor amount of flat tire wobble .

[Jess from VA]

Gentlemen,

I just wrapped up an Engineering career that started in 1976.  As part of this, I have met engineers from Harley-Davidson, Honda Motorcycle Japan, Bridgestone, Michelin, and Shell.  These guys are educated, experienced, and have the latest design/analytical tools.  Simply put, they know their crap.  You'd be impressed to see how all aspects of a tire's construction are designed for a particular vehicle. The Bridgestone engineer told me: "we have designed a tire specifically for your motorcycle".  Personally, I can't second-guess these men.  But, go ahead, if you choose.

One interesting note:  Most of the applications engineers at Shell in Texas have motorcycles.  They use Rotella diesel engine oil.

Pluggy

Of course all those engineers work for those companies and have no vested interest selling motorcycle tires..... that often last a paltry 6-8K miles until worthless.  And most bike tires are really not very good even though they may have another 1000-1500 miles left on them.

When they begin designing and building bike tires that last as long as car tires, I might be interested again.  Even though they will cost at least two times as much as those car tires.  

Ten years, two Valks with car tires, thousands and thousands of miles, no accidents, no injuries, no complaints (after a five ride learning curve).

[Fazer]

As I posted when I first went double dark side, I did notice a difference in handling.  Not better, not worse, just different.  I will never go back to motorcycle tires, for all the reasons enumerated in these posts.  I would like to get a side stand extender though.  With the Austone Taxi Tire, and where I have to park at work, on a slight grade, I use a piece of 2 x 4 that gets the bike up to normal lean +/-.  If I don't use the block, it's a bitch to stand it up to leave, and I keep thinking of the weight on the stand.

Greg

[Jess from VA]

One of my bikes came with a home made duckfoot fitted to the bottom of the stand.

It really wasn't for elevation so much as to not sink in hot asphalt or dirt.

It was nicely done in a wedge shaped piece of 1/8" flat stock, four countersunk screws from the bottom up, and two straps over the flat part of the kickstand.  This could easily be replicated with a bit thicker piece of flat stock to elevate the stand angle.

Mine lasted for some years until I failed to check screw tightness, and it departed the bike, someplace.

I suppose welding up the stand bottom would be more secure, but also less flexible (if you ever wanted to delete it).  Just lean the bike on a tree while it is being done. (or better, leave it on the jack)

I've seen those Rivco stand blocks, but $100 for a small hockey puck seemed high (like all Rivco products).

[Jess Tolbirt]

i thought i needed an extender once, turned out that the frame was bent where the kickstand was mounted..

[Skinhead]

As I posted when I first went double dark side, I did notice a difference in handling.  Not better, not worse, just different.  I will never go back to motorcycle tires, for all the reasons enumerated in these posts.  I would like to get a side stand extender though.  With the Austone Taxi Tire, and where I have to park at work, on a slight grade, I use a piece of 2 x 4 that gets the bike up to normal lean +/-.  If I don't use the block, it's a bitch to stand it up to leave, and I keep thinking of the weight on the stand.

Greg

Get a piece of 1 by wood, drill a hole in it run a knotted string thru the hole, make it long enough to reach your clutch lever.  Tie a loop in the free end.  When you park your bike, put the block under the stand and secure the string to your clutch lever or handlebar.  When you go to leave, use the string to retrieve the block, you don't even have to bend over to pick it up, and don't have to worry about extra weigh causing your side stand to move on rough roads.

[Skinhead]

Gentlemen,

I just wrapped up an Engineering career that started in 1976.  As part of this, I have met engineers from Harley-Davidson, Honda Motorcycle Japan, Bridgestone, Michelin, and Shell.  These guys are educated, experienced, and have the latest design/analytical tools.  Simply put, they know their crap.  You'd be impressed to see how all aspects of a tire's construction are designed for a particular vehicle. The Bridgestone engineer told me: "we have designed a tire specifically for your motorcycle".  Personally, I can't second-guess these men.  But, go ahead, if you choose.

One interesting note:  Most of the applications engineers at Shell in Texas have motorcycles.  They use Rotella diesel engine oil.

Pluggy

As with anything there are tradeoffs.  As an engineer with over 100,000 Darkside miles on my 2 Valks, I would say the the benefits of a car tire on SOME motorcycles (especially Valkyries), Far exceed any tradeoffs involved in switching from a MC tire.  When ever I change MC insurance companies, I have specifically asked the agent if a car tire would affect their coverage.  In all cases they asked is it a DOT approved tire?  If so you are fine.  Remember, they have been running 5.60 x 15 VW tires on the back of choppers and Harley's since the 60's or longer.

[John Schmidt]

Gentlemen,

I just wrapped up an Engineering career that started in 1976.  As part of this, I have met engineers from Harley-Davidson, Honda Motorcycle Japan, Bridgestone, Michelin, and Shell.  These guys are educated, experienced, and have the latest design/analytical tools.  Simply put, they know their crap.  You'd be impressed to see how all aspects of a tire's construction are designed for a particular vehicle. The Bridgestone engineer told me: "we have designed a tire specifically for your motorcycle".  Personally, I can't second-guess these men.  But, go ahead, if you choose.

One interesting note:  Most of the applications engineers at Shell in Texas have motorcycles.  They use Rotella diesel engine oil.

Pluggy

As with anything there are tradeoffs.  As an engineer with over 100,000 Darkside miles on my 2 Valks, I would say the the benefits of a car tire on SOME motorcycles (especially Valkyries), Far exceed any tradeoffs involved in switching from a MC tire.  When ever I change MC insurance companies, I have specifically asked the agent if a car tire would affect their coverage.  In all cases they asked is it a DOT approved tire?  If so you are fine.  Remember, they have been running 5.60 x 15 VW tires on the back of choppers and Harley's since the 60's or longer.

Even earlier than the 60's. The pieces of junk we used to throw together and called them a "motorcycle" weren't exactly "injuneering" marvels. For tires, when we needed one....front or back, we just went out to the local car graveyard, find one that fit fairly close and away we went. I know when I finally depart this blue marble, I have a rather large group of guardian angels to thank personally. But when you're in your teens you don't think of such things, you already have all the answers....even though you have no clue as to what the questions are or might be. 

[old2soon]

Ran the Dragon on a D/S tire. So did my Brother-da prez-draggin his trailer. I live in an area with Twistys available to me 5 mins from my casa. Been in toad starnglin cow floatin down right torrential rains. My thinkin here-only bout 90 G miles D/S-I KNOW the D/S tire did NOT hinder me in any of the situations and others I've been in. AND relatively certain when I duz need to stop QUICKLY I also KNOW my D/S tire(s) choices have helped me stop quicker/sooner/safer. Currently on an A T T. And oh-B T W-have taken ALL my D/S choices to bout a buck thirty indicated. Also realize tire choices ARE personal. You will NEVER git my sorry azz on another dunflop long as I'm breathing on a motorsickle. RIDE SAFE.

[hoosier jaybird]

Well Gentlemen, I talked to my State Farm agent this morning. He is an ex-rider and knows what going darkside is. He said he has two Gold Wing friends running car tires. He said he was not 100%sure that State Farm would insure a darkside equipped bike but that he would call the head office to clarify that. The swing arm label and the owners manual says Honda wants a 180/70 R 16 77H tire put on the rear. Are there any car tires with those specs? Page 4 of the manual deals with modifications legally. Will going off label create a loophole for a sue lawyer. Oh forbid if you cause an accident with another vehicle, even if there is no tire failure. Having two insurance companies and a sue lawyer fighting it out does not sound like a good day. I don't like spending big bucks for a tire that only goes for 10-12 thousand miles. So I was considering going darkside but don't want to risk having to sell the farm to settle a lawsuit. Hopefully I'll find out tomorrow from my agent about State Farm's ruling, then I can decide. I have learned a great deal from all this and I thank you for you're input. Ride safe everyone, Jaybird.  

[northernvalk]

Pot officially stirred!!!!!!

[The emperor has no clothes]

Well Gentlemen, I talked to my State Farm agent this morning. He is an ex-rider and knows what going darkside is. He said he has two Gold Wing friends running car tires. He said he was not 100%sure that State Farm would insure a darkside equipped bike but that he would call the head office to clarify that. The swing arm label and the owners manual says Honda wants a 180/70 R 16 77H tire put on the rear. Are there any car tires with those specs? Page 4 of the manual deals with modifications legally. Will going off label create a loophole for a sue lawyer. Oh forbid if you cause an accident with another vehicle, even if there is no tire failure. Having two insurance companies and a sue lawyer fighting it out does not sound like a good day. I don't like spending big bucks for a tire that only goes for 10-12 thousand miles. So I was considering going darkside but don't want to risk having to sell the farm to settle a lawsuit. Hopefully I'll find out tomorrow from my agent about State Farm's ruling, then I can decide. I have learned a great deal from all this and I thank you for you're input. Ride safe everyone, Jaybird.  

You would be wise to listen to Jess's advice and reconsider following it. 

[Fazer]

Guess some folks just can't help but kick a sleeping dog.

[..]

That poor sleeping dog gets poked again. Sheesh. 

[GiG]

What did you think he was going to say? 
Thanks for bringing down the heat on us. Not cool.
You asked for advice and went and did it anyhow. 
Now, go ask your husband if it’s ok to stand up to go pee.

[..]

What did you think he was going to say? 
Thanks for bringing down the heat on us. Not cool.
You asked for advice and went and did it anyhow. 
Now, go ask your husband if it’s ok to stand up to go pee.

Wonder if permission is asked before going over the speed limit etc etc etc etc etc etc.

[GiG]

That’s right.
How many things we do on or to our rides fly under the radar?
Lighting, speeding, exhaust mods, helmets, lane splitting on and on.
Why give ammunition to the Insurance industry to use against us?!?
They only want to take our money, not pay it out.
Watch, they will start excluding CTs soon since somebody that does not want to use them is proudly shining a spotlight on an issue the Insurance industry mostly is unaware.

[Wizzard]

All I can say is wow. If I run a CT or no makes not diff to anyone but me. Its a personal thing. I will never argue about it with anyone. I do not care what you run, only what I run. Why is this even an issue and why call the heat on us? I have never understood the argument on this subject. If you run a CT and like it,, fine. That does not mean everyone should run one. That sounds like the policy of one of our political parties.  

[old2soon]

Thinkin this WAS a case of leavin well enough ALONE!   But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO let me stir up da chit and see where it gonna stick!   Been stopped by a few L E Os whilst riding and you know What question they posed to me? How am I liking the car tire on my Motor?   Nuttin else-JUST how am I liking it?   Well here's hopin THAT hasn't or is about to change!   RIDE SAFE.

[Jess from VA]

Hello Jess,

Been a while since I spoke with the Bridgestone engineer.  He said everyone wants more milage.  Of course, we all do.   I don't recall any mention of a super-long-lasting motorcycle tire in the works. I suppose the performance vs. wear tradeoff is as old as the rubber tire itself.  Sport bike guys are pleased to get 2K miles out of a rear tire.

Anyway, they appear use good design engineering practice.  First requirement:  The product, if used correctly, will not harm the user.  There's government requirements for that, too.   As previously stated, the resulting item is not Mr. Jess's first choice.  

All of you guys would have gotten a kick out of those engineering trips.  There was always something to learn.

Plug man, please understand any short tempered-ness of mine was not directed toward you personally.

Besides car tires, if you follow this forum often, you will have read all kind of threads with people running radial bike tires of the wrong sizes front and rear, and bias plys of the right and wrong sizes, some of them reversed on the rim when rears are run on the front. 

Yes, we are here to personally cause tire engineers grief, and shortened life spans if at all possible. 

[MarkT]

Thanks a lot pal.  "Contact the home office".  That's MY insurance company too.

[Jess from VA]

As I posted when I first went double dark side, I did notice a difference in handling.  Not better, not worse, just different.  I will never go back to motorcycle tires, for all the reasons enumerated in these posts.  I would like to get a side stand extender though.  With the Austone Taxi Tire, and where I have to park at work, on a slight grade, I use a piece of 2 x 4 that gets the bike up to normal lean +/-.  If I don't use the block, it's a bitch to stand it up to leave, and I keep thinking of the weight on the stand.

Greg

Get a piece of 1 by wood, drill a hole in it run a knotted string thru the hole, make it long enough to reach your clutch lever.  Tie a loop in the free end.  When you park your bike, put the block under the stand and secure the string to your clutch lever or handlebar.  When you go to leave, use the string to retrieve the block, you don't even have to bend over to pick it up, and don't have to worry about extra weigh causing your side stand to move on rough roads.

My mom did this to get in and out of her big 2500 diesel truck.  Except her rope was tied to a little plastic stool.  It always took her a few jerks of the rope to get the stool upright.  Then this little old fat lady backed out of the cab down to the stool, then the ground.  It was pretty funny watching.  

She was too old to catch me anymore, but she could still throw things pretty well.