Broke down yesterday

[98valk]

3 miles from my house after a 70 mile breakfast ride.

either its the final drive or the drive shaft.  need to take it apart, and figure out why it failed and what I did wrong. Hmm?

[Lrndthehardway]

You must be a decent guy, if you an ahole you would have broken down 35 miles from home!

[Tfrank59]

Wow sounds like a pretty big breakdown.  You haven't got it apart yet but you know something major came apart on you. I hope it doesn't end up being too many $$$. Let us know what you learn.  I'd also be interested to know how many miles you got on your girl and if anything that failed had been original or maybe replaced over the years to your knowledge.

[Jess from VA]

So was it a 3 mile push?   

Sorry for your troubles.

[98valk]

So was it a 3 mile push?   

Sorry for your troubles.

call towing service. too many hills were I was, other areas I could have pushed it home. but it was Gods plan for me to meet the young driver. witnessed to him and he said he was going to get back to church with his wife and learn about God.

[98valk]

You must be a decent guy, if you an ahole you would have broken down 35 miles from home!

God's hand is always on me.

[98valk]

Wow sounds like a pretty big breakdown.  You haven't got it apart yet but you know something major came apart on you. I hope it doesn't end up being too many $$$. Let us know what you learn.  I'd also be interested to know how many miles you got on your girl and if anything that failed had been original or maybe replaced over the years to your knowledge.

gear noise is coming from the driveshaft pinion cup area.  17k miles since last time I greased it, but I haven't ridden in any rain conditions at all. I pulled the final drive 4k miles ago to check the splines and they were still wet with the grease/paste mixture I use and red-eye o-rings, and which I had used on the pinion cup also.
and yes I used the correct procedure to re-install.
I driveshaft only add 5k miles on it when I installed it. it was from a trike takeoff. pinion cup was low miles also.

[Valker]

Wow sounds like a pretty big breakdown.  You haven't got it apart yet but you know something major came apart on you. I hope it doesn't end up being too many $$$. Let us know what you learn.  I'd also be interested to know how many miles you got on your girl and if anything that failed had been original or maybe replaced over the years to your knowledge.

gear noise is coming from the driveshaft pinion cup area.  17k miles since last time I greased it, but I haven't ridden in any rain conditions at all. I pulled the final drive 4k miles ago to check the splines and they were still wet with the grease/paste mixture I use and red-eye o-rings, and which I had used on the pinion cup also.
and yes I used the correct procedure to re-install.
I driveshaft only add 5k miles on it when I installed it. it was from a trike takeoff. pinion cup was low miles also.

There's an O-ring in the pinion cup?

[98valk]

Wow sounds like a pretty big breakdown.  You haven't got it apart yet but you know something major came apart on you. I hope it doesn't end up being too many $$$. Let us know what you learn.  I'd also be interested to know how many miles you got on your girl and if anything that failed had been original or maybe replaced over the years to your knowledge.

gear noise is coming from the driveshaft pinion cup area.  17k miles since last time I greased it, but I haven't ridden in any rain conditions at all. I pulled the final drive 4k miles ago to check the splines and they were still wet with the grease/paste mixture I use and red-eye o-rings, and which I had used on the pinion cup also.
and yes I used the correct procedure to re-install.
I driveshaft only add 5k miles on it when I installed it. it was from a trike takeoff. pinion cup was low miles also.

There's an O-ring in the pinion cup?

seal and I installed a brand new one.

[F6Dave]

So was it a 3 mile push?   

Sorry for your troubles.

call towing service. too many hills were I was, other areas I could have pushed it home. but it was Gods plan for me to meet the young driver. witnessed to him and he said he was going to get back to church with his wife and learn about God.

That's a great ending.

[98valk]

didn't take it apart yet, however I think its the universal after putting it in gear and spinning the tire, I can hear the noise is coming from that area.

[Oss]

buy a new boot also

just do it

[Tfrank59]

didn't take it apart yet, however I think its the universal after putting it in gear and spinning the tire, I can hear the noise is coming from that area.

That would be my first guess based on your description.   The good news is that's not a catastrophic failure in that it probably didn't damage much of anything in there, particularly if you were running slow like in your neighborhood

[98valk]

didn't take it apart yet, however I think its the universal after putting it in gear and spinning the tire, I can hear the noise is coming from that area.

That would be my first guess based on your description.   The good news is that's not a catastrophic failure in that it probably didn't damage much of anything in there, particularly if you were running slow like in your neighborhood

well 5 minutes early I was on the hwy keeping with traffic doing 80, had got off to ride a new curvy road and then back onto the hwy.  off hwy 50 mph road. stopped at a light, made left rode another 6-8 miles 40-50 mph until I made right at another light and then that is when it would barely move forward and then nothing. was top of a hill so I coasted down to a fire house parking lot and called for a tow. 
when I was about 30 miles from home I felt something for a moment but didn't know what it was, thought I was lax on my 2nd gear shift and hit a dip in the road, at the same time I was making a left at the time, since after that everything was fine as usual.

[0leman]

Started loosing my U-Joint about 60 miles from home on a very lonely Hwy.  Was able to make it to the garage just barely.  Didn't know what was making the vibration/thumping between my legs.   Not much left of the U-Joint when took it apart.   

Agree with above, put a new boot on.

[Jess from VA]

Both with losing a Ujoint and left rear wheel bearing, I was able to limp along with the thumping and grinding, picking the slow speed where the thumping and grinding was minimized.  30-something.

Made it home with the Ujoint, and to a shop with the bearing.

The left rear bearing fails a lot.  The bike with the blown Ujoint used to have a nitrous bottle setup and had pulled a lot of hole shots.  

[Tfrank59]

You guys who've had a u joint failure, did it do any damage internally to like the swing arm or the tail shaft of your tranny?

[Jess from VA]

Not mine, and I don't ever recall reading about any which did.

There was a lot of grindy dust up the swingarm hole, which I blew and swabbed out. 

[0leman]

You guys who've had a u joint failure, did it do any damage internally to like the swing arm or the tail shaft of your tranny?

Like Jess, no damage.   Really disliked replacing the rubber boot.   

[Tfrank59]

Yep I've heard that's the worst part of dealing with that ujoint.  I've had a brand new boot in my garage for like six years now ha ha

[dpcarson]

You guys who've had a u joint failure, did it do any damage internally to like the swing arm or the tail shaft of your tranny?

Like Jess, no damage.   Really disliked replacing the rubber boot.   

HA!!  That boot is tha devil!!

[Mooskee]

Like Jess, no damage.   Really disliked replacing the rubber boot.   tickedoff

Agree, but a ripped boot and a big rainstorm can wash the grease out of the rear end and cause major headaches.

[98valk]

pinion cup, all teeth gone, nothing but powdered rust.  the drive shaft teeth worn, not usable.

will pull u-joint tomorrow. however the u-joint driveshaft end was wet with grease.

[Jess from VA]

So, if that's water damage, where did it come from?

[gordonv]

pinion cup, all teeth gone, nothing but powdered rust.  the drive shaft teeth worn, not usable.

will pull u-joint tomorrow. however the u-joint driveshaft end was wet with grease.

Pictures?

I've seen this happen to a few people.

Do you think it's from needing a new seal? Maybe we need to treat them as we do an OEM valve stem and replace on every service?

[saddlesore]

I had the pinion gear and cup go.   There is a small hole from the pumpkin that passes some oil to the pinion gear.  It's very easy to get that hole clogged with grease.  Part of servicing to check that hole.

[0leman]

Somewhere around 80K miles I had pulled the rear end apart and found the pinon cup full of red stuff.  Not sure if the hole was plugged or not.   I did notice more wear than it should have been, though I had pulled it and grease it less than 10k before.   I did replace the the cup and drive shaft.  So far, some 40K plus, it is still nice and greasy every time I have pulled the shaft at 10k increments.   Still not sure if there is oil in the mix or not.   

[Tfrank59]

pinion cup, all teeth gone, nothing but powdered rust.  the drive shaft teeth worn, not usable.

will pull u-joint tomorrow. however the u-joint driveshaft end was wet with grease.

Oh that's a major drag. You're gonna have to do something in the pumpkin now because of the pinion cup. What's your plan? I guess your choices are rebuild or replace. Plus a new driveshaft. Bright side, sounds like your U joint might still be OK.

[98valk]

I had the pinion gear and cup go.   There is a small hole from the pumpkin that passes some oil to the pinion gear.  It's very easy to get that hole clogged with grease.  Part of servicing to check that hole.

IMO zero oil from the final drive goes into the pinion cup area to provide splash lubrication as used in gear boxes. when I laid the final drive on its side after a couple minutes gear oil was coming out, so they were not clogged. IMO the holes are part of the venting system due to the higher temps the final drive gets to while running.

[Tfrank59]

So if not for lack of oil getting into the pinion, what would you say was the cause of the failure—lack of grease?  Do you suppose the seal failed, allowing moisture in there and the grease to escape?  Now that I have two big Hondas with the same final drive (my VTX has the same pumpkin but it's on the left side) I really want to make sure and avoid this kind of final drive failure.

[hubcapsc]

I had the pinion gear and cup go.   There is a small hole from the pumpkin that passes some oil to the pinion gear.  It's very easy to get that hole clogged with grease.  Part of servicing to check that hole.

IMO zero oil from the final drive goes into the pinion cup area to provide splash lubrication as used in gear boxes. when I laid the final drive on its side after a couple minutes gear oil was coming out, so they were not clogged. IMO the holes are part of the venting system due to the higher temps the final drive gets to while running.

I don't know what to think about that.

I've pulled my drive shaft and found the pinion end glistening with final drive oil:



I've pulled it and found what looks like only some of the assembly grease still on there:



And then, there's the time my seal failed:





I pack a lot of grease in there now... that blue waterproof bel-ray kind...
if there's some kind of pressure that requires some kind of vent
action, it'll have to blow the bel-ray out of the vent holes itself  ...

98valk: how long (how many miles) since you last looked in there?

I have two bikes now, so mine goes a lot longer between tire changes, but of
course, about the same amount of miles...

-Mike

[Tfrank59]

I've personally seen very little wear on my pinion and pinion cup over the last 70K miles. I'm not expecting much gear oil through those holes rather I'm putting plenty of grease and moly paste on there upon installation. I think I've blown the holes clear per what several have said on this forum. But every time I pull it apart, I noticed the grease is pretty much the same after going through one rear tire (usually about 12 K miles) as it looked when I assembled.

[Pluggy]

I had the pinion gear and cup go.   There is a small hole from the pumpkin that passes some oil to the pinion gear.  It's very easy to get that hole clogged with grease.  Part of servicing to check that hole.

IMO zero oil from the final drive goes into the pinion cup area to provide splash lubrication as used in gear boxes. when I laid the final drive on its side after a couple minutes gear oil was coming out, so they were not clogged. IMO the holes are part of the venting system due to the higher temps the final drive gets to while running.

There is an oil seal between the final drive oil and the pinion cup.  Shouldn't that keep the oil in the final drive case?  See #31 in the parts diagram.

https://www.hondapartsnation.com/oemparts/a/hon/506cb7c1f870023420a41bcf/final-driven-gear

Those small holes let air flow out when the drive shaft is inserted into the pinion cup.  Without that air flowing out of the rear of the cup, assembly would push the grease back towards you.

[hubcapsc]

  Shouldn't that keep the oil in the final drive case?

Hold your full final drive with the pinion cup pointed down, and fluid
will start drizzling out of the holes as long as they're not clogged.

In my picture, final drive fluid is all over the pinion end of my
drive shaft...



-Mike

[Pluggy]

  Shouldn't that keep the oil in the final drive case?

Hold your full final drive with the pinion cup pointed down, and fluid
will start drizzling out of the holes as long as they're not clogged.

In my picture, final drive fluid is all over the pinion end of my
drive shaft...



-Mike

Yes, thanks for your picture.  My bike doesn't do that.  Maybe an oil seal is working?  Last year I had the final drive off and carried it around in about every direction.  No oil spilled out.  The pinion cup and driveshaft splines and were covered with the grease I put in there two years earlier.  Sorry, no oil, just grease.  Everything looked like new.  I replaced the old grease and reassembled.  And yes, those vent holes were open.

What do you think?

Pluggy

[Jess from VA]

I've been following this issue (about the little hole getting rear end dope through it) on here for many years (comes and goes).

I don't know what to think.

I have not found evidence of 80/90 wt on my pinion gear.  Just grease.

I wonder if overfilling the pumpkin by (just) a few ounces would get more through the hole?  It would not affect the pumpkin adversely at all.  If you really overfilled it, it should puke out the breather.

[Skinhead]

I've had Pinion cups that look like Mike's pictures, and I've had the dry red rust.  I've never changed a seal in the driveshaft.  I use Belray waterproof grease exclusively.  I'm not sure what causes the dry rusty stuff.  My mileages are 140K and 70K on an 99 Interstate and 03 standard respectively.  I try to do the 10K mile service on the splines, missed by a couple thousand miles the last time on my IS and found the red dust.  Not destroyed, but ordered a drive shaft and pinion cup for next time if needed. 

This and the splines appears to be the week link on the Valkyries.

[hubcapsc]

What do you think?

That you didn't hold your pumpkin with the pinion cup
down on purpose for a while and look for fluid drippage  ...

If you held it with the chrome breather frob pointing down and
no fluid came out, something is not working right...

I'm too clumsy to fill my pumpkin off the bike the way Jeff
from Florida does, I invariably end up spilling goo out of the
breather cap. D'OH! I just fill it on the bike. I never put the whole
bike upside down  ...

-Mike

[Bagger John - #3785]

I have owned driveshaft Hondas since 1981.  The procedures I read are raise bike to vertical, drain then fill the gear oil to the bottom of the fill hole.  It comes out clean.   As of last year, no oil, just grease in that cup and everything looks like new.

I don't think the bike has a problem, and without the forum posts I would not be asking this.

Thanks / Pluggy

Watching this thread with first a comment and then a question:

'91 was the first time I came in contact with driveshaft Hondas (GL1100A); I have owned a number of them since and have worked on many, many more. A pinion cup with a working seal and with a proper amount of grease in place will mirror your observations; ditto with the final drive drain/fill and discharged oil. I've never seen a driveshaft end wet with final-drive lube.

Next, a question (for Jess):

You said the right rear bearing was a source of trouble. I've probably got 200k miles cumulatively on 5 Valkyries ('99 through '03 model years) and have yet to experience a wheel bearing problem. Tires used have been stock Dunlops (Elite 3s), Metzeler ME880s or Avon Cobras - no car tires, no hole shots or drag racing either but I don't ride slow or sedately. None of my area Valkyrie buddies have replaced bearings in their rear wheels and a couple are approaching 100k or 200k (on '97 and '99 Standards). The latter bike belongs to a rather large couple; aside from normal PM, tires, shocks, forks and shock bushings are about the only things replaced on that particular Valkyrie.

Thus, I'm curious about why these parts fail.

[Tfrank59]

At the risk of hijacking 98Valk's thread, wheelbearings can fail for a number of reasons. I think what the forum guys are saying about the rear wheel bearings on the Valkyrie relates to a possible design flaw in that there perhaps should've been a more heavy duty bearing in there, since there have been a number of reported failures. I've got almost 100K on my bike, I replaced my wheel bearings front and rear soon after I purchased the bike, although the ones in there seemed to be fine—Just did it out of a sense of paranoia I guess cause of what I read in shoptalk or wherever.

Regarding the final drive of the Valkyrie, I agree with somebody's post that it is kind of the weak link on that bike. Seems to be pretty high maintenance compared to say the Wing guys I've talked with who say that they do very little maintenance to their final drives.  The odd thing is it's essentially the same drive unit arrangement!