Problems with final drive re-assembly

NITRO · Wed 01, Sep 2010, 21:22:34

Alph and I put new bearings in the spare wheel (CT already mounted to it), changed to new dampers, put in all new o-rings. We put new fluid in the replacement final drive (see my post about hating other people's work), took off the nut cages and replaced the stock bolts and nuts with carriage bolts, etc.

We ran into a problem in getting the wheel back on. The flange won't quite go in as far as it should, we end up with about half an inch gap between the wheel and final drive. We've had the rear end apart on 3 different Valks now multiple times and never had a problem like this.

This is what we know: the flange is all the way in the wheel, the o-rings are mounted as they're supposed to be, everything is greased and assembled as it should be. The wheel just won't slide all the way in!

Also of note, when we tried putting the flange in place without the wheel, we could push it all the way in, but it would push itself back out slightly. It's almost as if there's an air pocket or a piece of rubber keeping the flange from mating all the way into the final drive.

Any ideas here? We gave up for the night and I'm eager to get this fixed and back on the road ASAP.

Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008 · Wed 01, Sep 2010, 22:27:44

Too much grease will do this sometimes. Gets an air pocket trapped behind it and just won't let it go in.

Rio Wil · Wed 01, Sep 2010, 23:19:36

Are sure the damper retaining plate is properly engaged behing the retaining tabs, also is the black plastic "dust" ring installed on the final drive properly. If the flange goes all the way in and comes out slightly when released, that is ok (air bubble compression) unless as earlier mentioned, you have way too much grease in the splines......in that case the flange should not go "all the way in"..

alph · Thu 02, Sep 2010, 04:26:50

part of me still thinks there's too much grease on the spline, although i did remove quite abit of it when we tried the second time. the question is how do we get the air to "fart" out from behind the spline???

Ricky-D · Thu 02, Sep 2010, 10:36:20

As long as it is not a mechanical reason for the spline to not install fully, just keep pushing and the air will have to expel itself.

***

NITRO · Thu 02, Sep 2010, 20:24:01

The problem continues. I took the wheel off, cleaned as much grease out of the final drive as possible and cleaned off the wheel flange. I checked all o-rings and made sure they were in place. I put the flange into the final drive (while off the bike) and it made a "thunk" sound like the flange was going all the way into the final drive. I then put the flange back in the wheel and made sure it was all the way in. I put the drive back on the bike and, when I tried to mount the wheel again, it still had the same problem. WTH!

Any other ideas? I'm at a total loss as to what the problem is. It just won't mess all the way into the final drive.

Chrisj CMA · Thu 02, Sep 2010, 20:54:16

you dont by chance have the final drive spacer in backwards do you........it only fits one way

NITRO · Thu 02, Sep 2010, 21:26:39

Quote from: Chrisj CMA on Thu 02, Sep 2010, 20:54:16
you dont by chance have the final drive spacer in backwards do you........it only fits one way

Which spacer is that?

Rio Wil · Thu 02, Sep 2010, 23:41:10

Its item 20 in the final drive parts breakdown.....the axle goes thru it in the center of the final drive. Did you by chance try mating the final drive to the flange/wheel assembly while off the bike?

R J · Fri 03, Sep 2010, 00:42:08

Where did you get the spare wheel?

Are you sure it is for a Valkyrie, I don't know for a fact, but I've heard the Gold Wing wheel will almost fit.

If it is a Valkyrie wheel, are you sure you have the dampers in all the way.

RP#62 · Fri 03, Sep 2010, 07:33:35

Show us some pics and we could probably tell you whats wrong.
-RP

Ricky-D · Fri 03, Sep 2010, 10:36:06

Quote from: Rio Wil on Thu 02, Sep 2010, 23:41:10
Its item 20 in the final drive parts breakdown.....the axle goes thru it in the center of the final drive. Did you by chance try mating the final drive to the flange/wheel assembly while off the bike?

Here ya go!

http://www.hdlparts.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=148613&category=MOTORCYCLES&make=HONDA&year=2000&fveh=3474

It's called the "collar B"

Note: One end is flared some and that the small end goes into the pumpkin.

If the small end is bunged up some, there is a chance that it will install with difficulty since the pocket inside the pumpkin makes it a tight fit, pilot like minimally.

***

NITRO · Fri 03, Sep 2010, 17:20:28

The spacer is in there correctly and is in as far as it will go (looking in from the outside of the final drive I can see there is no space between the end of the spacer and the drive itself). I'll pull it out and try putting back in for good measure...

I pushed the dampers all the way in and the plate is screwed down firmly. I can't see any problem with that step.

I'll gladly take pictures tonight when I try it all over again and, most likely, have the same problem.

Thanks much for the suggestions thus far!

alph · Fri 03, Sep 2010, 17:37:05

Hey buddy, I haven't abandoned you, just not enough hours in a day when you get home at 7:30...... wish I could help.

Valkpilot · Fri 03, Sep 2010, 19:17:43

Quote from: Ricky-D on Fri 03, Sep 2010, 10:36:06

Here ya go!

http://www.hdlparts.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=148613&category=MOTORCYCLES&make=HONDA&year=2000&fveh=3474

It's called the "collar B"

Note: One end is flared some and that the small end goes into the pumpkin.

If the small end is bunged up some, there is a chance that it will install with difficulty since the pocket inside the pumpkin makes it a tight fit, pilot like minimally.

***

Be aware that the parts fische shows the wide end going into the drive unit. As Ricky-D points out, the narrow end goes in and the flared end sticks out. The parts fische drawing is incorrect.

Red Diamond · Fri 03, Sep 2010, 19:32:46

One more note, maybe not as important as previous advise, make sure the transmission is in first gear so that you can spin the drive flange against the final drive splines, insuraning a good fit.

NITRO · Fri 03, Sep 2010, 20:26:02

Here's what I did tonight in order:

1. Removed the wheel and wheel flange again.

2. Removed the damper plate, made sure the dampers were in as far as they'd go, put the plate back on.

3. Made sure the final drive spacer was installed correctly. The wider, fluted end was sticking out toward the wheel, smaller end was in pumpkin.

4. I tapped on the final drive spacer a bit with a piece of wood and hammer to make sure it was seated all the way in, which is seemed to be.

5. I compared the spare wheel with the one I'd taken off the bike, both look identical as far as I can tell.

6. I took a breath, hoped like crazy that this would work, put the wheel back in and it still won't go in all the way.

Pictures are following...

NITRO · Fri 03, Sep 2010, 20:34:29

Final drive spacer:

"Old" wheel:

"New" wheel:

The flange in the wheel (this looked the same as the one I had removed in terms of space between the wheel and flange):

The wheel not mating into the final drive by about .5":

NITRO · Fri 03, Sep 2010, 21:12:52

And to answer you RJ, I got the wheel from a friend of mine in MI. He bought if off a guy that triked his '01 IS. My friend got the wheel, bags, and final drive. He kept the rest of the goods and I got the wheel this spring from him.

Robert · Fri 03, Sep 2010, 22:30:29

Taking a look at the pics and reading I have a couple of questions. It looks like the flange 8 is not seated all the way on into the bushings 1. The flange 8 sits on the wheel on top of the thrust washer 5 and the center part of the flange sits on the wheel hub 9 where the bearings 18 go this sits flush or with no space. So you should be able to mount 8 and have the inside lip of 8 sit on the hub where the bearings 18 goes with no space and the thrust washer 5 being the only thing that separates the flange 8 from the hub. The pins that go into the bushings some how may be to long and hold the flange 8 from seating all the way down to ride on top of the thrust washer. Please check that this is not the case the other thing is check that there is not another oring in where the final drive and 8 engage each other. I mean really check with a pick to make sure there is not a oring trapped in there you really cant see them. In the pic it also looks like you dont have the wheel perfectly perpendicular to the diff. It wont go on like this but it may be just the pic that makes it look like the top is out further than the bottom. The center spacer coming out of the diff sits on the bearing in the wheel. The flange 8 is held in place by the diff gear and the wheel with the thrust washer acting like a insulator so when the bushings give and move dont score up the wheel hub. There should be no space between any of these when the wheel is on

Hoser · Sat 04, Sep 2010, 06:27:59

Take the bag brackets off and get a little more room to work, yer gettin close. Take off the exhaust if you have to. Wish I was closer than 800 miles. Don't give up! Are you working by yourself? It always helps to have another biker unit on scene. Hoser ???
Last resort, BFH!

Tropic traveler · Sat 04, Sep 2010, 07:16:53

I agree with Robert.
I just put my '97 back together the other night & it was a PITA to get lined up correctly. Your drive flange does not look "seated" in all the way. Robert's extra O ring theory is a real possibility.
Sometimes it's the simplest things that get overlooked!!
BTW, the black plastic collar on the pumpkin does not cover up all the ridges on the wheel. I had to confirm that by looking at the other Valks we have as I thought it did!
Let us know what you find.

alph · Sat 04, Sep 2010, 07:20:00

i wonder if the car tire is rubbing on the swingarm? are there any modifications to make other then the nut cage for installing a cartire???

MP · Sat 04, Sep 2010, 07:32:12

+1 on checking for "extra" o-ring. The outer plastic does not cover the groove, as stated above.
MP

lee · Sat 04, Sep 2010, 07:47:11

This may sound stupid but looking at the distance between the dust ring on the pumpkin
and the edge of the wheel (in your pictures) it appears to me to be all the way in.
Have you tried putting the break holder and spacer in on the other side.
Sorry ahead of time, but thats what I see from the pictures.

Robert · Sat 04, Sep 2010, 08:25:48

Sorry for the lousy pick but as per Lee I posted this so you can see the collar and diff/wheel spacing

Ricky-D · Sat 04, Sep 2010, 09:28:10

One big help is to insert the axle through the whole swing arm from either side to get the parts lined up and in all the way.

Once this is accomplished, block up the wheel sufficiently to allow removing the axle and installing the brake caliper mounting plate and the final spacer.

Slide the axle back in properly and tighten it down!

***

Chrisj CMA · Sat 04, Sep 2010, 09:40:54

I just looked at my spare final drive. Your spacer is definetly sticking out of the pumpkin more than it should be. At the bottom of the hole. The outside of the casing where the drive shaft enteres there is a steel sleeve that stops the spacer. Make sure (by looking in from the outside of the pumkin) that the spacer is touoching that steel sleeve. I bet you will find something is stopping it from bottoming out

NITRO · Sat 04, Sep 2010, 12:02:53

Quote from: Chrisj CMA on Sat 04, Sep 2010, 09:40:54
I just looked at my spare final drive. Your spacer is definetly sticking out of the pumpkin more than it should be. At the bottom of the hole. The outside of the casing where the drive shaft enteres there is a steel sleeve that stops the spacer. Make sure (by looking in from the outside of the pumkin) that the spacer is touoching that steel sleeve. I bet you will find something is stopping it from bottoming out

I'll check again, but as far as I could tell by looking in from the outside of the pumpkin, the spacer was in as far as it would go.

This afternoon I plan to pull the wheel off again, remove the final drive pumpkin again, clean all of the grease out of the final drive, check for an extra o-ring or something inside of it, remove and reinsert the spacer, and check that the flange is entering the wheel all of the way. I compared the flange of my old wheel with the new one last night and they are identical in ever way (except the teeth aren't worn off!).

I'm also going to try my old wheel with the new flange and final drive to see if it will go in. If so, that would indicate something is odd with the wheel.

For reference, I am switching to different, used wheel, different, used final drive and wheel flange, chagned to double 5204 bearings in the replacement wheel, and replaced all o-rings and the thrust washer.

Red Diamond · Sat 04, Sep 2010, 13:26:34

Quote from: lee on Sat 04, Sep 2010, 07:47:11
This may sound stupid but looking at the distance between the dust ring on the pumpkin
and the edge of the wheel (in your pictures) it appears to me to be all the way in.
Have you tried putting the break holder and spacer in on the other side.
Sorry ahead of time, but thats what I see from the pictures.

I agree, I think you are beating a dead horse. That black dust ring is not guage as to whether it is in all the way, it is usually about 1/4 or so inch away from the shoulder of the wheel.

alph · Sat 04, Sep 2010, 13:32:38

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet, nitro and I tried putting the axel in and wedging the break mounting bracket along with the bearing collar, and neither would fit, so there is something that is not allowing the wheel to seat all the way on.

JetDriver · Sat 04, Sep 2010, 13:33:07

I haven't been looking at the pics close enough to see if this even makes sense, but you said you put in new dampers. Are they the custom dampers offered from one of our members from this site? Someone said their dampers were hard to get compressed all the way. They were tighter fitting than OEM. Maybe try your old dampers and see if they seat the same. I wouldn't imagine you would have to install with old dampers- just look at them seated compared with new ones.

Tropic traveler · Sat 04, Sep 2010, 13:46:51

I don't think the height of the dampers will be a problem. They are locked in by a plate using a ridge on the wheel, if there was a difference he would not have been able to lock the plate in. Now there could be a problem with the drive flange pins not seating all the way down inside the dampers.
I have Gary's dampers installed on mine & all was good, they were tighter than the 100K stockers {imagine that!} but went in good.

NITRO · Sat 04, Sep 2010, 17:52:01

I went out this afternoon and planned to take everything apart and look for an extra o-ring or something stuck in the final drive. Just before pulling the wheel off, I decided to take Ricky-D's advice and put the axle in to line things up. I did that and, just for kicks and giggles, tried to stick the spacer in place (we tried this the other night and it wouldn't fit). Guess what- the spacer popped right in and I was able to put the axle in the rest of the way!

I think the original problem was an air bubble caused by too much grease in the final drive. After cleaning some of the grease out and trying to put it back on, we got stuck on the idea that it wasn't slipped in far enough even though we didn't try to put the spacer in again.

I missed some riding time and wasted a lot of time in general trying to figure out what was wrong, but on the plus side, I got very well aquainted with the final drive. And now I get to go enjoy my first DS tire! Life is good! Thank you all for you help, it is much appreciated!

MP · Sun 05, Sep 2010, 07:22:51

Good news! Glad there was not a bigger problem. I figured there was not, just a fitment issue, but over the internet can never tell for sure.

MP

Robert · Sun 05, Sep 2010, 14:04:09

Ok now that we are all teched

up we need to wait for a real problem this was only a test

Glad it all went ok

Tropic traveler · Sun 05, Sep 2010, 17:18:55

Glad to hear it!!!

Relax · Mon 06, Sep 2010, 05:45:43

My guy at the workshop here claims many grease way too much.
"It should be wet," he says , " but not very much grease. The splines are sqeezed tight together by the axel & axelnut, so the splines do not "grind" very much against each other..
And if you keep an eye on it every time your replace the tire,, you are good."

I do my splines myself and grease more than that,,,but those are the words of my mecanic who has done Goldwings etc for years..

Sodbuster · Mon 06, Sep 2010, 07:43:31

Late comer here .... just read thru this post for first time. I had the same thing happen earlier this year when changing tires. Had that extra gap like NITRO was having. Ended up doing what Ricky-D suggested by inserting the axle in part part way thru .... put the wheel on the axle and then slid the wheel all the way into place .... then pulled axle out a few inches to install caliper bracket, etc. I remember the spacer being the culprit as it wasn't exactly perpendicular with the housing and the axle trick lined every thing up ....

MP · Mon 06, Sep 2010, 09:30:48

Quote from: Sodbuster on Mon 06, Sep 2010, 07:43:31
Late comer here .... just read thru this post for first time. I had the same thing happen earlier this year when changing tires. Had that extra gap like NITRO was having. Ended up doing what Ricky-D suggested by inserting the axle in part part way thru .... put the wheel on the axle and then slid the wheel all the way into place .... then pulled axle out a few inches to install caliper bracket, etc. I remember the spacer being the culprit as it wasn't exactly perpendicular with the housing and the axle trick lined every thing up ....

That is the way I always do it.

MP

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Problems with final drive re-assembly