Double roll bearing installed on the left....

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

I had the collar/spacer machined down and now have double roll ( R ) side on the ( L ) . I've replaced ( 4 ) rear left bearings on my Valkyrie's since buying my first one 1998. When the other two need rear tires I'll be doing the same on those as well.First picture is the spacer after having it machined down. We made a collar to go between the spacer and dust seal and was able to use the dust seal also with alittle silicone sealant around the edge. I just got back from a 1,500 mile weekend ride doing the entire Natchez Trace from Natchez, Mississippi to Nashville , Tennessee and it looks outstanding.I also installed new dampers while I had the rear down along with spline and final drive maintence.



These last two pictures show's how we pressed the bearing's in useing two old left bearings as a guide.

[Daniel Meyer]

Good pics Joe!

Got pics of what you did/how you used with the dust seal?

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

Good pics Joe!

Got pics of what you did/how you used with the dust seal?

Sorry Daniel I do not I put the bike together until 2:30 a.m. last wednesday night and hit the road thursday morning for Natchez, Mississippi. I'll check and see if I can get one with it on the bike.

[NITRO]

I just switched mine out to the double on the left this week too. I'm also interested in seeing how you got the dust seal in there...

[Daniel Meyer]

Sorry Daniel I do not I put the bike together until 2:30 a.m. last wednesday night and hit the road thursday morning for Natchez, Mississippi....

Muhahaha! I know about those nights! I not only forget to take pics...I forget that I own a camera! LOL!

No worries.

[GOOSE]

joe, how much did you machine off of the spacer when you went to the double row bearing?

[Daniel Meyer]

There's a write up in shoptalk about it.

http://valkyrieriders.com/shoptalk/5204_bearing_mod.pdf

[John Schmidt]

If you also used the dust seal then you must have cut the spacer down more than the instructions originally called for. Can you shed some light on that for us, I picked up a spare spacer specifically for this project....to be installed at my next final drive service. I assume the extra collar you made goes between the spacer and dust seal. Since the dust seal goes inside the hub, how did you get it to stay in place....got me "cornfused" there bud. 

[Baloo]

Yep... Seems like you got us all curious. I did the mod too when the rear left bearing gave on me on my return from vacation 2 weeks ago... 

I'm curious to see/read about using the seal too...

[Ricky-D]

You may call it a dust seal but that is a misleading description!

It will not keep out anything but boulders.

It will not keep out water!

It may be better that nothing at all but losing the actual seal is the worst case scenario.

The part that you machine off the spacer is the part that runs inside the oil seal and you have to run without that seal when you change to the double row bearing!

Now there are those that will say that the bearing still has a seal incorporated with the bearing which, when you do the modification becomes the first line of defense.

Much better to keep the oil seal as the first line of defense and then the bearing incorporated seal becomes an additional line of defense.

If Honda even considered the Valkyrie needing a double row bearing at that location they would have put one there.  Some however think they are better at this kind of redesign effort.

I'll say this again for all those that are considering bearing replacement.  Most all bearing replacements are repeat replacements due to inexperience and lack of proper installation of the replacement bearings.

One fellow on this forum has replaced a bearing four times now. FOUR times!!!!  How often can you blame the bearing?

Keep the power washer away from that part of the wheel where the bearings are located and you should never have to expect to replace the bearings.  You should consider the bearing a forever item.

***

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

You may call it a dust seal but that is a misleading description!

It will not keep out anything but boulders.

It will not keep out water!

It may be better that nothing at all but losing the actual seal is the worst case scenario.

The part that you machine off the spacer is the part that runs inside the oil seal and you have to run without that seal when you change to the double row bearing!

Now there are those that will say that the bearing still has a seal incorporated with the bearing which, when you do the modification becomes the first line of defense.

Much better to keep the oil seal as the first line of defense and then the bearing incorporated seal becomes an additional line of defense.

If Honda even considered the Valkyrie needing a double row bearing at that location they would have put one there.  Some however think they are better at this kind of redesign effort.

I'll say this again for all those that are considering bearing replacement.  Most all bearing replacements are repeat replacements due to inexperience and lack of proper installation of the replacement bearings.

One fellow on this forum has replaced a bearing four times now. FOUR times!!!!  How often can you blame the bearing?

Keep the power washer away from that part of the wheel where the bearings are located and you should never have to expect to replace the bearings.  You should consider the bearing a forever item.

***

I've seen several left bearings go out on folk's while on a ride and I've seen many on here talk about the left bearing going out over my 12 years as a Valkyrie owner.   Your " forever " bearing must be special .For the record I've changed the left bearing three times with another POS single roll bearing on three different Valk's over a 12 year period  this double roll bearing I just installed is number four and I hope it's my " forever " bearing.

[Warlock]

You may call it a dust seal but that is a misleading description!

It will not keep out anything but boulders.

It will not keep out water!

It may be better that nothing at all but losing the actual seal is the worst case scenario.

The part that you machine off the spacer is the part that runs inside the oil seal and you have to run without that seal when you change to the double row bearing!

Now there are those that will say that the bearing still has a seal incorporated with the bearing which, when you do the modification becomes the first line of defense.

Much better to keep the oil seal as the first line of defense and then the bearing incorporated seal becomes an additional line of defense.

If Honda even considered the Valkyrie needing a double row bearing at that location they would have put one there.  Some however think they are better at this kind of redesign effort.

I'll say this again for all those that are considering bearing replacement.  Most all bearing replacements are repeat replacements due to inexperience and lack of proper installation of the replacement bearings.

One fellow on this forum has replaced a bearing four times now. FOUR times!!!!  How often can you blame the bearing?

Keep the power washer away from that part of the wheel where the bearings are located and you should never have to expect to replace the bearings.  You should consider the bearing a forever item.

***

Got to be careful telling people about not knowing how to install bearings. I'm a mechanic by trade and the left bearing is a weak point. Putting the double roll bearing is a smart move. I just replace my left bearing and next time around will be putting the double row bearing in. Going to make my own space on the lathe once I return to the ship.
David

[mirion]

I know this is a redundancy because I have posted this information before but just in case someone hasn't seen it, here it is again.

Although I agree that the bearing seal should be sufficient, I too was apprehensive about losing the dust seal but I remembered something I had seen once before in the machine tool trade. It is a shield that covers the bearing and provides some additional protection. I shortened the spacer an additional .3 mm which is the thickness of the Nilos Ring. I used the 6204 ZAV Nilos ring below. Can be picked up at most bearing houses including Motion Industries for around $10. It provides some additional piece of mind about losing the lip seal. I have had it intalled for 4000 miles and no problems. I will be doing it to my I/S as well on the next tire change. To me this is a no brainer if you are doing the "Double Row Mod"
(XRing, feel free to pipe in here if you have installed the Nilos ring I sent you and agree with this concept.)

Example bearing with Nilos installed


Nilos catalog page and web address:
http://www2.nilos-ring.com/Default.aspx/G/111327/L/1033/R/-1/T/122948/A/2/ID/122949



Shorten spacer to this dimension if using the Nios Ring. This is .012 shorter than the writeup in the "Shop Talk" article)


A bearing with and without the Nilos Ring. As seen, it provides a metal cover for the plastic bearing seal. It is only .3mm or .012 inch thick. It is clamped in by the shortened spacer against the stationary inner race and has a close running clearance with the rotating outer race.

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

I know this is a redundancy because I have posted this information before but just in case someone hasn't seen it, here it is again.

Although I agree that the bearing seal should be sufficient, I too was apprehensive about losing the dust seal but I remembered something I had seen once before in the machine tool trade. It is a shield that covers the bearing and provides some additional protection. I shortened the spacer an additional .3 mm which is the thickness of the Nilos Ring. I used the 6204 ZAV Nilos ring below. Can be picked up at most bearing houses including Motion Industries for around $10. It provides some additional piece of mind about losing the lip seal. I have had it intalled for 4000 miles and no problems. I will be doing it to my I/S as well on the next tire change. To me this is a no brainer if you are doing the "Double Row Mod"
(XRing, feel free to pipe in here if you have installed the Nilos ring I sent you and agree with this concept.)

Example bearing with Nilos installed


Nilos catalog page and web address:
http://www2.nilos-ring.com/Default.aspx/G/111327/L/1033/R/-1/T/122948/A/2/ID/122949



Shorten spacer to this dimension if using the Nios Ring. This is .012 shorter than the writeup in the "Shop Talk" article)


A bearing with and without the Nilos Ring. As seen, it provides a metal cover for the plastic bearing seal. It is only .3mm or .012 inch thick. It is clamped in by the shortened spacer against the stationary inner race and has a close running clearance with the rotating outer race.

Great information 

[Sodbuster]

It's hard to tell from any of the pictures I've seen on this subject but once the double roll bearing is installed is it flush with the wheel or is it beyond the wheel hub ??

[MikeT]

If bearings are a "forever" item then why are there replacement bearings produced?  Any machine that uses bearings has the statistical posibility of bearing failure.  The life of a bearing when sized properly is based on statistics referred to as B-10 life.

Poor installation protocol may cause issues but a bearing is definitely not a "forever" item.

[mirion]

I recall that it is is very close to flush or just a little inside of flush. That is why when the double row bearing is installed there is no longer room for the dust seal that shares the bore with the single row bearing.

[X Ring]

Mike, I do agree with the Nilos ring and when I tear Sandman apart in a couple thousand miles I will be installing the one you sent me.  The extreme heat this summer has kept my riding to a minimum but now the temps have dropped I have to look for a reason NOT to ride.  As I've stated before, when Sandman hit 50K miles, I will be tearing everything out from under the Valk from the ujoint back.  I will post pics of the left double row bearing before and after I install the Nilos ring.

Marty

[Garland]

I seem to remember a few years ago when people first started doing this that an argument was made that the single-row bearing was designed for different stresses than the double-row. I have had more than my share of failures (primarily due to chroming the wheel) so I am by no means a fan of the stock system. Has anyone who has made the change racked up some serious miles yet without trouble?

[MP]

I have a little over 10,000 on it with no trouble, but I would not call that serious miles on a bearing, even a single row.  As far as different stresses, that same bearing is on the right side, and almost no one has a failure with it!  If we can get LH bearings, with a double row, to fail as seldom as a RH bearing fails, it will be a resounding success!

MP

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

I was a jet mech in the service and a millwright for years and I know bearings do fail. We have at work 46 cooling fin fans  each one has four bearings two in the motor and two on the fan shaft, it keeps two guys busy just staying on top of these alone. I changed all my bearing when I bought the bike as it had 59K on it so I did fuilds, brakes, and bearings just to know what I was riding. Since then I did lose a front wheel bearing but it had 50K on it.

[Baloo]

If Honda even considered the Valkyrie needing a double row bearing at that location they would have put one there.  Some however think they are better at this kind of redesign effort.

I have been working in the truck business for the last 25 years. During that time, I have worked for a long period on warranty claims. I can tell you that engineers do make design mistakes leading to repeated failures in the field. Engineers are humans and like all humans, they make mistakes (hey! we all do!) I have seen engines failing because of bad designs. I have seen companies having to replace the pistons in diesel engines on a large scale because of the bad piston design leading to excessive oil consumption. I could go on like this for a long time! If engineers did not make mistake, the companies would not have to put up safety recalls like Toyota had to do last month or so... As for almost all bearings failures being related to improper installation, then it would mean that a whole bunch of bearings where misinstalled by Honda when they built our machines, as a whole lot of us are experiencing rear left bearing failures. The first one that fails on your bike having been installed by Honda, should we consider that it was misinstalled?

I am not a big fan of mods, but in this particular case, it is just obvious that this single row bearing is not up to do the job and that the double row bearing is the logical way to go. I like the idea of the Nilos ring and will check on this.

One way or the other, my "forever" rear left bearing left me stranded in the middle of nowhere on my return from vacation and I'm willing to try something that can keep this from happening again. Plus, it is a mod that can be easily reversed if it proves inefficient. Just put back an original single row bearing, the dust seal and a new spacer and you're back to original.

[Sodbuster]

Although I agree that the bearing seal should be sufficient, I too was apprehensive about losing the dust seal but I remembered something I had seen once before in the machine tool trade. It is a shield that covers the bearing and provides some additional protection. I shortened the spacer an additional .3 mm which is the thickness of the Nilos Ring. I used the 6204 ZAV Nilos ring below. Can be picked up at most bearing houses including Motion Industries for around $10. It provides some additional piece of mind about losing the lip seal. I have had it intalled for 4000 miles and no problems. I will be doing it to my I/S as well on the next tire change. To me this is a no brainer if you are doing the "Double Row Mod"

Hey mirion .... I like your suggestion, that's an excellent idea.  I dug into the Nilos Ring website and they also commented on the following:

"In order to reduce the moment of friction during first start-up, the dished sealing groove is to be filled with grease before fitting. Once the NILOS-Ring has been fully run in, it does not need any further maintenance"

Also, "The standard types of ring are produced from galvanized special strip steel. On request NILOS-Rings can also be produced from stainless steel or brass."

I would tend to believe the SST one would be the better option .... No Rust !!

[Sodbuster]

One other thing came to mind on this subject .... when making the mod to the spacer to be sure it is done by a qualified machinist to get that new mating surface on the spacer nice and square with no axial runout.

[gordonv]

I had the collar/spacer machined down and now have double roll ( R ) side on the ( L ) . I've replaced ( 4 ) rear left bearings on my Valkyrie's since buying my first one 1998. When the other two need rear tires I'll be doing the same on those as well.First picture is the spacer after having it machined down. We made a collar to go between the spacer and dust seal and was able to use the dust seal also with alittle silicone sealant around the edge. I just got back from a 1,500 mile weekend ride doing the entire Natchez Trace from Natchez, Mississippi to Nashville , Tennessee and it looks outstanding.I also installed new dampers while I had the rear down along with spline and final drive maintence.

It looks like you have installed a metal valve stem, it's also rotated to the right side. Is it a solid stem, or just one chromed, and is there enough clearance for it mounted that way?

[Ricky-D]

If bearings are a "forever" item then why are there replacement bearings produced?  Any machine that uses bearings has the statistical posibility of bearing failure.  The life of a bearing when sized properly is based on statistics referred to as B-10 life.

Poor installation protocol may cause issues but a bearing is definitely not a "forever" item.

Well, you're correct. There is nothing man made that is forever.

B-10 life is a failure rating in that it infers that 10 percent of the bearing will fail at that load and whatever number of cycles that it is based on.

***

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

I had the collar/spacer machined down and now have double roll ( R ) side on the ( L ) . I've replaced ( 4 ) rear left bearings on my Valkyrie's since buying my first one 1998. When the other two need rear tires I'll be doing the same on those as well.First picture is the spacer after having it machined down. We made a collar to go between the spacer and dust seal and was able to use the dust seal also with alittle silicone sealant around the edge. I just got back from a 1,500 mile weekend ride doing the entire Natchez Trace from Natchez, Mississippi to Nashville , Tennessee and it looks outstanding.I also installed new dampers while I had the rear down along with spline and final drive maintence.

It looks like you have installed a metal valve stem, it's also rotated to the right side. Is it a solid stem, or just one chromed, and is there enough clearance for it mounted that way?

It's the same size as OEM in fact that little goofy plastic thing will still work with it but not needed ...It's all metal and available at www.patchboy.com

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

One other thing came to mind on this subject .... when making the mod to the spacer to be sure it is done by a qualified machinist to get that new mating surface on the spacer nice and square with no axial runout.

I had mine machined at a business thats famous in our area for building race car motors.

[Sodbuster]

Here is an interesting read about Nilos Rings ....

http://mdmetric.com/prod/nilos/nilos3.htm

[X Ring]

Thanks Sodbuster.  Good stuff to know.   

Marty

[GOOSE]

i must be having trouble understanding the article on double row bearing install.  could someone please give me these measurements:  1- how much do you machine off, and 2- what is the final measurement of tle machined down spacer?

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

i must be having trouble understanding the article on double row bearing install.  could someone please give me these measurements:  1- how much do you machine off, and 2- what is the final measurement of tle machined down spacer?

If you plan on doing it then buy a new right rear bearing ( double row ) . Take it and the old left side that's to be replaced to the machinist...Take off the difference between the two on the spacer .

[NITRO]

The article says to remove .26". It's all in there!

[Ricky-D]

It's actually not that big a deal since the swingarms are a fabricated item that also have a tolerance range.

The difference in the amount you take off just needs to be close to the difference in the bearings.

within 30 thousands of an inch either way will work just fine!

***

[Sodbuster]

It's actually not that big a deal since the swingarms are a fabricated item that also have a tolerance range.

The difference in the amount you take off just needs to be close to the difference in the bearings.

within 30 thousands of an inch either way will work just fine!

***

You make a good point, but, +/-.030 is a little excessive - I would try to keep it +/-.010 myself

[2qmedic]

SmokingJoe,

I had thought about using the sealant to hold the seal in place on the rim also, but was unsure if it would work very well.

Just wondering which sealant you used and how well did it hold the seal in place on your trip?

Thanks for any insight

Charles

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

SmokingJoe,

I had thought about using the sealant to hold the seal in place on the rim also, but was unsure if it would work very well.

Just wondering which sealant you used and how well did it hold the seal in place on your trip?

Thanks for any insight

Charles

So far so good....We made a collar out of plastic that's between the spacer and seal to hold it tight to the wheel.I put a very lite coat of sealant on over the entire bearing and let it dry. The dust seal was packed around the inside edge with water-proof Green Grease and the outer edge was sealed to the wheel with NAPA Silicone Adhesive Sealant ...I've rode it about 1,500 miles since the install and it still looks as stated above ....So far so good.....I'm ridin' it today across The Great Smoky Mountains I'll try to see what kind of pictures I can take without having to pull the saddlebag off.