New Clutch!

[Valkpilot]

Well, part of a new one, anyway.

For about six months, I've had occassional problems finding neutral.  Once in a while, a slight shudder at take off.  More recently, the clutch lever wouldn't pull all the way to the grip. Again, this was once in a while, and then more frequently.  Downshifting to first was a clunky affair, sporadically.

The symptoms, especially the clutch lever not pulling in all the way, kept pointing to failing rivets in the damper plate of the plate stack in the clutch.  I had reservations.  The last thing I wanted was to pull apart the back of the engine and find nothing wrong with the clutch. Still, something wasn't right.  I exchanged a few e-mails with Daniel, who told me that he didn't know of any other problem that would cause the clutch lever not to pull in other than a failing clutch.

So I bit the bullet, and today Disco and I had an impromptu wrench party and pulled my clutch plate stack out.  Sure enough, there were chunks of rivets in the case and the damper plate had visibly separated.  Fortunately, I caught this early enough that there was no scoring or damage to the basket or clutch housing.

We took the stack and the new parts I'd ordered up to Cycle Center of Denton, and they de-stacked the old and re-stacked the new plates and put in a new spring.  Now, get this:  They did it for free.  Sure, I bought the parts there, but assembly for free?  Wow. That's service.  I suggest that you give Cycle Center of Denton your business whenever it's convenient.  They'll match HDL Online pricing, too.

Anyway, several hours (and lots of cussing) later, including a call out to The Jet, I've got what amounts to a brand new clutch.

We took a few pictures that I'll post later.

[Joe Hummer]

Hey ValkPilot,

Would you mind sending me what parts you purchased?  My bike has a little shudder taking off but I am not having issues finding neutral...yet  I need to put that on my immediate to do list...

Joe

[Joe Hummer]

Couple of more questions for you...

Did you have to remove the motor to replace the clutch? 

What problems did you have that you had to call for help?

Joe

[john]

 "Anyway, several hours (and lots of cussing) later "       ???
please ... tell us all about that part ...     
just so we'll know what to look forward to ...     

[Valkpilot]

Hey ValkPilot,

Would you mind sending me what parts you purchased?  My bike has a little shudder taking off but I am not having issues finding neutral...yet  I need to put that on my immediate to do list...

Joe

http://www.hdlparts.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=148070&category=MOTORCYCLES&make=HONDA&year=1998&fveh=3466

From the clutch fische at the link above, I bought the following:

Number 4, 1 each
Number 6 (damper plate), 1 each
Number 3, 9 each
Number 5, 8 each
Number 11, 1 each

I may not have needed the friction and steel plates (numbers 4, 3, and 5), or the spring (number 11), but I purchased and replaced them anyway.  Hopefully I now have a clutch good for another 100k miles or so.

Note the expense of the basket -- part number 1, labeled as "Clutch Outer".  It's $250 by itself.  If you get in there before the loose bits chew this up, you save yourself a lot of money, not to mention hassle in removing it.

You also need part number 2, the gasket, from this fische: http://www.hdlparts.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=148069&category=MOTORCYCLES&make=HONDA&year=1998&fveh=3466

[Valkpilot]

Couple of more questions for you...

Did you have to remove the motor to replace the clutch?  

What problems did you have that you had to call for help?

Joe

"Anyway, several hours (and lots of cussing) later "       ???
please ... tell us all about that part ...    
just so we'll know what to look forward to ...    

Alright, you inquisitive young minds you, here goes:

You do not have to pull the engine.  You can get to everything from underneath.  We took off the side covers, the center cover and the gas tank to maximize both working room and available light.  Removing the gas tank makes a big difference in being able to reach some of the bolts.  [Side note:  Disco and I have taken our tanks off so many times in the last six months that we have the hoses trained.  When we snap our fingers, they jump to the nipples like nursing puppies.]

Drain the oil.  You'll still have a cup or so run out of the clutch cover when you take it off, so be ready.

After removal of the body panels and tank, jack up the bike by lifting under the engine only.  You can't use a lift adaptor, so you're only going to get the front end off the ground.

Then, unbolt the kick stand assembly from the frame and bungee it out of the way.  It's a knuckle buster because of the arrangement of the bolt head placement.  An impact wrench helps A LOT.

Kickstand out of the way:


Next, bungee the clutch lever to the grip.  Then remove the clutch slave cylinder.  You do not have to drain the system.  Just move it out of the way.


Once you've done this, there are 14 bolts spaced around the clutch cover that need to be removed.  Most can be reached from underneath, the highest 4 or so are best reached from above or the sides.  I don't have a picture of this, but you can see what I mean using the parts fische: http://www.hdlparts.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=148069&category=MOTORCYCLES&make=HONDA&year=1998&fveh=3466


With the bolts out, the clutch cover pops off.  You may need to insert a putty knife in the seam to get it started.  Set the cover aside -- you'll need to scrape off the old gasket later.  

Refer to the fische: http://www.hdlparts.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=148070&category=MOTORCYCLES&make=HONDA&year=1998&fveh=3466

There's a bearing plate bolted to the clutch assembly with four bolts.  Remove it.  

Underneath is a 31mm nut that is staked down (peened).  I used a 1 1/4 socket and the impact wrench to spin that bad boy off.  It's torqued on to about 97 ft lbs, so you either need to build or buy the hold-this-sucker-in-place-while-I-tear-a-bicep-using-a-breaker-bar special tool, or use an impact wrench.

Once the nut is off, the clutch plate stack pretty much slides right out of the basket.  Here's the old clutch stack.  Looks pretty good, huh?


Look again.  The damper plate has started to separate, which means some rivets have failed and the remaining ones are under even greater stress.


Three of the rivets were gone from the damper plate.


What was left of the nasty buggers was found in the case.


The inner parts of the damper sandwich are these spacer blades that are freed up when the rivets go.


I'm glad I did the work when I did.  The clutch basket does not show sign of excessive wear, scoring, or other mayhem as a result of the rivets coming apart.


So far, starting with the oil drain and body part removal all the way to holding the clutch plate stack in our greasy paws, we've invested about two and a half hours, and part of that was searching for the elusive fourteenth cover bolt (hint: it's inboard of the u-joint boot.)

We trucked off to the dealer so that they could use a special compression tool to unspring the thing and stack in the new plates.  (I know, I know, I could have jerry-rigged something, but time was of the essence, as they say.)  While the dealer did the work, Disco and I strolled next door to the Smokehouse restaurant, and dined on some of the best ribs I've had in these parts.

<INTERMISSION MUSIC PLAYS HERE FOR ABOUT AN HOUR>

Now comes the part that interests John: The cussing and call out.

Those little ears on the plate stack need to be lined up straight.  Usually the dealer pulls the clutch basket, stacks in the basket for alignment, then takes out the stack and re-installs the spring.  But that basket is held on with a lock nut that requires a 46mm, 12 point, deep well socket and is on there at about 134 ft lbs.  I didn't want to search hither and yon for such an animal if I could help it, so the basket stayed on the bike.

The dealer used a straight edge to line up the plates (simulated using the old plates):


OK, this is going to be a breeze, says us.  We go to insert the plate stack. It pushes back.  I take it to the bench and nudge some of the ears into better alignment.  It goes in further.  Lather, rinse, repeat, until finally we're getting in about to where the splines should start to engage.  It won't go farther.  It slides right in then stops with a "clunk".  No gradual tightening, just a sudden stop about 2/3 of the way in.  Curse.  Try again. Curse.  Call out to The Jet.  He says it has to be alignment.  "But they're lined up!", we wail.  "It has to be alignment", The Jet intones.

Time for a closer look at the "alignment."  While they are all lined up OK, are they perpendicular to the baseplate?  Nope.  When we used a square to check them, it turns out that they ran at a very slight angle.  When inserting them, they were acting like screw threads, but since the slots they were running it are straight (and unforgiving), the stack was rotating imperceptably and cocking slightly off center, halting further progress.

Use of a carpenter's square (simulated here on the old plates) to adjust the postion solved the problem:


It didn't insert itself after this, mind you, but it slid in far enough that running the nut on with the impact wrench seated it once and for all.

After that, it was a matter of re-assembly in reverse order.

There's a noticible difference in clutch lever resistance, which I assume is the new spring.  There also seems to be more positive pull especially in first gear, but some of this could be perception on my part.

All in all, it's not a hard job.  I'm guessing that once you get the first-timer fumbling we did out of the picture, it's a 3 to 4 hour job.  It was good experience, I saved a lot of money doing it myself, and I've got a lot more peace of mind.

[HayHauler]

Thanks for the write up Valkpilot!  I am definitely book marking this one.

And you had superior supervision. 

Hay 
Jimmyt

[Disco]

Another excellent write-up from Valkpilot! 

[Joe Hummer]

Thanks for the information ValkPilot.  I have ordered the parts and will be performing the work when they get here. 

Joe

[Valkpilot]

Thanks for the information ValkPilot.  I have ordered the parts and will be performing the work when they get here. 

Joe

I added the gasket after the original post.  Did you order it too?

[Valkpilot]

And you had superior supervision. 

Yes, I did.  Always handy to have him around.

[Joe Hummer]

Thanks for the information ValkPilot.  I have ordered the parts and will be performing the work when they get here. 

Joe

I added the gasket after the original post.  Did you order it too?

SHITE....calling to see if they are there and i can add...

[Valkpilot]

Thanks for the information ValkPilot.  I have ordered the parts and will be performing the work when they get here. 

Joe

I added the gasket after the original post.  Did you order it too?

SHITE....calling to see if they are there and i can add...

Sorry...

[Joe Hummer]

Thanks for the information ValkPilot.  I have ordered the parts and will be performing the work when they get here. 

Joe

I added the gasket after the original post.  Did you order it too?

SHITE....calling to see if they are there and i can add...

Sorry...

Not your fault brother...I forgot it too...DUH!!!  Of course, they were not there but I emailed them tonight and will call them tomorrow to see if the gasket can be added. 

Of course...you know...this is just the reason I needed to buy an air impact gun.  I just hope my little air compressor can handle it...I have a 1 hp-7 gal Craftsmen compressor and a 1/4" hose.  I figure I will at least have to upgrade the hose...

Joe

[Valker]

This post should be added to "ShopTalk"!

[Joe Hummer]

Of course...you know...this is just the reason I needed to buy an air impact gun.  I just hope my little air compressor can handle it...I have a 1 hp-7 gal Craftsmen compressor and a 1/4" hose.  I figure I will at least have to upgrade the hose...

Joe

Crap!!!  Looks like I will be busting loose a bicep or two...my air compressor isn't enough to handle the 1/2" impact gun.   

Joe

[5_19]

Of course...you know...this is just the reason I needed to buy an air impact gun.  I just hope my little air compressor can handle it...I have a 1 hp-7 gal Craftsmen compressor and a 1/4" hose.  I figure I will at least have to upgrade the hose...

Joe

Crap!!!  Looks like I will be busting loose a bicep or two...my air compressor isn't enough to handle the 1/2" impact gun.  

Joe

Joe, I think your air compressor will be just fine for what your using it for. A burst here and their. You can always buy a BIGGER air compressor. The key is a good quality impact wrench Ask VP    ~TJ

[Joe Hummer]

Of course...you know...this is just the reason I needed to buy an air impact gun.  I just hope my little air compressor can handle it...I have a 1 hp-7 gal Craftsmen compressor and a 1/4" hose.  I figure I will at least have to upgrade the hose...

Joe

Crap!!!  Looks like I will be busting loose a bicep or two...my air compressor isn't enough to handle the 1/2" impact gun.  

Joe

Joe, I think your air compressor will be just fine for what your using it for. A burst here and their. You can always buy a BIGGER air compressor. The key is a good quality impact wrench Ask VP    ~TJ

I have a good friend that is going to help me out.  On the plus side...he wants to help with the install anyway so he can see how to do it. 

Joe

[BnB Tom]

This post should be added to "ShopTalk"!

    Yes.  What he said. 

  W O W !!

  Dave.  Do you have any history on your bike that would suggest why your clutch was in such needed repair?  -  Like towing a trailer or drag racing??

Or, is it possible that someone's bad 'riding the clutch' habit could have caused the damage?

  I don't remember what your mileage is but is this a project that every Valker has to look forward too? 

I may have to save up my sheckles and put em aside . . I be paying somebody else. 

[Valkpilot]

This post should be added to "ShopTalk"!

    Yes.  What he said. 

  W O W !!

  Dave.  Do you have any history on your bike that would suggest why your clutch was in such needed repair?  -  Like towing a trailer or drag racing??

Or, is it possible that someone's bad 'riding the clutch' habit could have caused the damage?

  I don't remember what your mileage is but is this a project that every Valker has to look forward too? 

I may have to save up my sheckles and put em aside . . I be paying somebody else. 

Mine is a 1998 standard. I bought it in 2003 with 4870 miles on it from the dealer that originally sold it new.  The dealer had bought it back from the PO, who had put less than 1000 miles per year on it.  It now has just over 62,000 miles on it, so virtually all the miles are mine.

It's always had the "right" oil in it, in other words, I never put energy conserving automobile oil in it.  In fact, it's been Mobile 1 synthetic 15-50 at every oil change except the first one I did, which was done with Amsoil synthetic motorcycle oil.

From the reading I've done, this is a failure that occurs most frequently on 1997 and 1998 models, usually around 60,000 miles.  It has been ascribed to a sub-par supply of damper plates, but I don't know if that's actually been confirmed.  I wouldn't say it is widespread -- there's relatively little in the tech archives about it.  And, slippage is not one of the symptoms, so improper clutch use (wearing out the friction plates by riding the clutch) is pretty much ruled out.

I wouldn't put it on my worry list until you start having problems pulling the clutch lever all the way to the grip.  That seems to be the definitive symptom if your clutch lever and bushing are in good repair.

[Joe Hummer]

Hey BnB,

I am suspecting that mine is on its way out based on two factors...ok...3 factors. 

1)  My bike has 75k on it and I don't ride easy...I am sure the wheelies don't help the clutch that much...

2)  I have a small shudder as I take-off from a stop.  It is right where the clutch is almost fully engaged.  It does it on every take-off. 

3)  When I put the bike in neutral and let the clutch out, I get a grinding type noise (much more than normal and it goes away when the clutch is pulled in).  I haven't noticed it while riding. 

I have ordered the parts and should be able to tear into it as soon as they come in. 

Joe

[Valkpilot]

I may have to save up my sheckles and put em aside . . I be paying somebody else. 

I'm cut to the quick, as I'm sure is Disco.  Here you have two dear friends who would help you in your time of need and you're willing to turn your back on us and pay a stranger for services. 

[Valker]

Hey BnB,

I am suspecting that mine is on its way out based on two factors...ok...3 factors. 

1)  My bike has 75k on it and I don't ride easy...I am sure the wheelies don't help the clutch that much...

2)  I have a small shudder as I take-off from a stop.  It is right where the clutch is almost fully engaged.  It does it on every take-off. 

3)  When I put the bike in neutral and let the clutch out, I get a grinding type noise (much more than normal and it goes away when the clutch is pulled in).  I haven't noticed it while riding. 

I have ordered the parts and should be able to tear into it as soon as they come in. 

Joe

Joe, I have 124K on mine. Number 1 holds true for me also.
No experience with #2.
Number 3 is a normal clutch noise on every Honda I've ever owned. Some folks have said when it gets louder it is some type of throw out bearing.