Oil Temperature, what ifs

[Beer van Huet]

Hello Technoholics,

I just bought a Tel Tru oil temp dipstick and I have a fair understanding about oil behaviour.
I ride a F6C Std (1999) and change my oil and coolant every winter (after some 5000 miles).
Right now, I use Castrol Power 1 Racing oil (fully synthetic) 10W-50.  I have red the search topics about oil temperature and mine seems to be OK (ranges between 160-200 degrees F, pending on RPM and OAT).
Just out of curiosity, if I have a sudden rise in temperature, what does that tell me?
The engine runs hotter, obviously. I can come up with loss of oil, coolant, fan, wrong ignition and the like.
Does anyone know what the maximum allowable operating temperature of the engine is, before I may start experiencing piston and/or bearing failure? The manual talks about a thermosensor resistance at 248 degrees F, I presume that is the overheat light. Is that the temperature limit as well?
TIA,

[shortleg]

  I would thing your coolent light would
come on before your oil got too hot.
          Shortleg[Dave]

[98valk]

FYI
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles


what kind of sudden rise are u talking about? the valkyrie only has water temp sensors, no oil temp.
a spike is water temps, could be fluid leakage, failed thermostat, clogged radiator, very extreme lean condition. if modifying ignition advance, too much advance for operating conditions and wrong octane for those conditions.
just some ideas.

[The Anvil]

How sudden are we talking? Oil is pretty stable stuff temperature-wise and it's pretty rare that you see it jump up in temp very quickly. But one of the times I've seen it happen is when a main bearing was getting ready to fail. A more common cause however when the filter goes into bypass or the oil system bypasses the filter. Now you no longer have oil traveling along the thin outer casing of the filter that's typically exposed directly to airflow.

[98valk]

Now you no longer have oil traveling along the thin outer casing of the filter that's typically exposed directly to airflow.

maybe a couple of degrees which is nothing.  The only time oil filters are considered part of the oil temp calculations is when using a dual filter system that is only attached to the engine block with an adapter and hoses.

[The Anvil]

Now you no longer have oil traveling along the thin outer casing of the filter that's typically exposed directly to airflow.

maybe a couple of degrees which is nothing.  The only time oil filters are considered part of the oil temp calculations is when using a dual filter system that is only attached to the engine block with an adapter and hoses.

Gonna have to disagree.

[bentwrench]

Synthetic oils can handle 230f all day long,I would make sure the thermostat is operating properly.A non contact thermometer is ideal for this. You can "watch" the upper hose/rad inlet and see what temp the stat opens at and then maintains.
bw

[sandy]

I have the same oil temp guage. When I pull the tent trailer in hot wether (110F), the oil gets up over 220F. As soon as I slow down, it comes back down to 210 in 1-2 minutes. All this with no red temp light coming on. Without the trailer, it'll get up to 210F at freeway speeds. Slower surface street speeds sees about 195-205.

[98valk]

Now you no longer have oil traveling along the thin outer casing of the filter that's typically exposed directly to airflow.

maybe a couple of degrees which is nothing.  The only time oil filters are considered part of the oil temp calculations is when using a dual filter system that is only attached to the engine block with an adapter and hoses.

Gonna have to disagree.

please provide test data to support your hypothesis.

[RP#62]

I posted this sometime last year on temps.

Rode the bike to work today.  It was nice this morning - about 82°F on the way in at 5:45.  Coming home was a different story.  I've got a digital temp indicator on my bike and I can toggle between air temp and coolant temp.  When I started the bike up to come home, the air temp indicator was showing 118°F.  I was thinking, well, its been baking in the sun all day, we'll see what it does when there's some airflow over it.  Sure enough, a soon as I got it up to 40, the temp plummeted to 114°F and stayed there.

By the time I got out on the freeway, it stabilized at 117.5 and stayed there the rest of the way home (20 miles).  At 60-70 mph indicated, coolant temp was 188°F and oil temp was 214°F.  If there was water in my oil, it ain't there no more.  Though I'd post for those interested in temps.
-RP

[The Anvil]

Now you no longer have oil traveling along the thin outer casing of the filter that's typically exposed directly to airflow.

maybe a couple of degrees which is nothing.  The only time oil filters are considered part of the oil temp calculations is when using a dual filter system that is only attached to the engine block with an adapter and hoses.

Gonna have to disagree.

please provide test data to support your hypothesis.

Well I'll give you a procedure; on some Lycoming and Continental engines with aftermarket engine information suites there is an indicator for when the oil system goes into bypass. It's been known to give a false indication from time to time so the test for a false indication is to watch the oil temp. If it's in bypass then it typically will rise 10 to 20 degrees within a couple minutes, depending on the engine and conditions you're in. A similar system is there for the oil cooler as well.

Now, this is also somewhat dependent on where the temperature is taken and the oil quantity. You may see little to no effect over a short period of time depending on the design of the instrument. I'd say that for the most part you're right, the difference will be minimal where most automotive and motorcycle pickups are located. But there's just that what if possibility that nags at me.

[Ferris Leets]

I do not have an oil temp gauge.  How long does it take for the Valk to come up to operating Temp (oil).  My Vette took about 12 miles.  The coolant temp took about 3 miles.
       It seems that a lot of people think cooler is better but, from my understanding and experience, I ruined a motor one time in 1,000 miles, any internal combustion motor is designed to run in a temperature range.  Out side of that is when you start to do damage.  I actually suspect the Valk of running on the low end of its range and am tempted to try a slightly higher thermostat.  If I can find one.

[98valk]

Now you no longer have oil traveling along the thin outer casing of the filter that's typically exposed directly to airflow.

maybe a couple of degrees which is nothing.  The only time oil filters are considered part of the oil temp calculations is when using a dual filter system that is only attached to the engine block with an adapter and hoses.

Gonna have to disagree.

please provide test data to support your hypothesis.

Well I'll give you a procedure; on some Lycoming and Continental engines with aftermarket engine information suites there is an indicator for when the oil system goes into bypass. It's been known to give a false indication from time to time so the test for a false indication is to watch the oil temp. If it's in bypass then it typically will rise 10 to 20 degrees within a couple minutes, depending on the engine and conditions you're in. A similar system is there for the oil cooler as well.

Now, this is also somewhat dependent on where the temperature is taken and the oil quantity. You may see little to no effect over a short period of time depending on the design of the instrument. I'd say that for the most part you're right, the difference will be minimal where most automotive and motorcycle pickups are located. But there's just that what if possibility that nags at me.

that is for aircraft engines and it is referring to a completely different type of filtration/pump system. u left paragraphs out from the websites that talk about those engines.
your grasping for air and altitude. 
provide info for a stock/OEM oil filter installed on the engine block of a motorcycle or cage to support your comment that an oil filter helps cool the oil.
Remember a flat metal surface is not good for heat transfer. steel dissipates heat at a much slower rate than aluminum.  The valkyrie oil pan/lower engine block is ribbed aluminum and u contend that a small flat steel oil filter helps lower the oil temp?

[The Anvil]

provide info for a stock/OEM oil filter installed on the engine block of a motorcycle or cage to support your comment that an oil filter helps cool the oil.

Prove it doesn't.

[98valk]

provide info for a stock/OEM oil filter installed on the engine block of a motorcycle or cage to support your comment that an oil filter helps cool the oil.

Prove it doesn't.

that's the response I was expecting, from someone who thinks they know but really doesn't.
u made the claim and have nothing to back it up with, the proof is on u sir.

[ValkFlyer]

provide info for a stock/OEM oil filter installed on the engine block of a motorcycle or cage to support your comment that an oil filter helps cool the oil.

Prove it doesn't.

that's the response I was expecting, from someone who thinks they know but really doesn't.
u made the claim and have nothing to back it up with, the proof is on u sir.

Again, prove that it doesn't. You took issue with MY statement, not the other way around so prove that I'm wrong. If you want to disagree then that's fine, we can do that and leave it at that. But don't be a douche about it.

Jeeze....... what on earth is going on here?  I'm certainly no expert on this kind of thing but it all seems a bit over the top.    Besides if you add a nice chrome cover to the filter I'd imagine, by what's been shared, the temp is going to be impacted? In the big picture is winning or not winning an argument on the small stuff worth resorting to name calling?

[MP]

I would not worry too much.  240 deg for dino oil.    many up to 400 deg for synthetic oil.

ref.  here ::    http://www.synlube.com/oil.htm

Without my sidecar, I see 200-215 deg on hard pull.  With the sidecar, I was running 240-245 deg all the time.  Full synthetic, Amsoil. 

MP

[T.P.]

I have asked this before.  At what temp are you going to pull over and STOP ?  ???

[MP]

I have asked this before.  At what temp are you going to pull over and STOP ?  ???

Well, according to the article, with dino oil you should by 225 or so.

With synthetic, good for at least 300 deg.  Cannot imagine how in h**l you could get it that hot though.  I was at 75 mph, probably 90-95% throttle, in 95 deg weather, with the sidecar and a passenger, to get to 240 or so.

MP

[T.P.]

HEY M.P.,  You and I are thinking along the same lines.


Cannot imagine how in h**l you could get it that hot though.   

[MP]

TP

email sent regarding the MN rally

MP

[Beer van Huet]

Thanks everyone, for all your comments/discussions/attachments,

I enjoyed reading it and am a lot wiser now 

Thanks again

[Ricky-D]

My feelings about temperature gauges on the Valkyrie are two.

They for the most part are simply bling!

The accuracy of the gauges is very suspect. Take two for comparison and you would see what I mean.

***

[Ferris Leets]

Ricky,
      Can't argue the bling factor.  However, I would like to have an oil temp and water temp gauge.  Not much practical use for normal use.  For me the trend would be important.   The normal baseline temp of both would be established and the expected time to stabilize.  Then I would be watching for any anomalies.  Either trends higher or lower.  To me those 2 give you some early warning of problems.  ie: a rise in coolant temp might indicate a low coolant level.  A drop would indicate a stuck open thermostat.  Oil temp rising would indicate to me either low oil, a restriction some where in the system, or worst case a failing bearing.  Not much to be done about the last but the others are things you can check before something catastrophic happens. 
      I have not added these yet because I think the actual value is not worth the effort right now but when I get time I will do them plus an oil pressure gauge.  On the Vulcan Nomads with the plastic oil gear the only thing that could save you from catastrophic engine failure was having multiple blinking lights and sirens.  And the common sense to shut the motor off when it had NO oil pressure.  Amazing how many riders rode with the oil light on and the lifters clacking.

[GJS]

Since Water Temperature was mentioned.....

Has anyone seen a Radiator cap with a temp gauge built in?
I swear I saw one once but have never been able to find it again.

Thanks,

Glenn

[dallastar]

Radiator cap with a temp gauge built in?   IF U FIND ONE I WANT ONE !!!

Since Water Temperature was mentioned.....

Has anyone seen a Radiator cap with a temp gauge built in?
I swear I saw one once but have never been able to find it again.

Thanks,

Glenn

[98valk]

Radiator cap with a temp gauge built in?   IF U FIND ONE I WANT ONE !!!

Since Water Temperature was mentioned.....

Has anyone seen a Radiator cap with a temp gauge built in?
I swear I saw one once but have never been able to find it again.

Thanks,

Glenn

http://www.jegs.com/i/Mr.+Gasket/720/2473S/10002/-1

been addressed before which one fits. search is your friend 

[Jess Tolbirt]

ok here is my theory and its only my opinon so dont go off and say you want proof cause i aint got none,,,
what temp does water evaporate? 212,,,so your oil has to run hotter than 212 to evaporate any water that gets in there,, so i say 220 to 275 would be a good place for the temp to be,,,

[98valk]

ok here is my theory and its only my opinon so dont go off and say you want proof cause i aint got none,,,
what temp does water evaporate? 212,,,so your oil has to run hotter than 212 to evaporate any water that gets in there,, so i say 220 to 275 would be a good place for the temp to be,,,

water is always evaporating unless it is at 0 degrees kelvin. the temperature only speeds it up or slows it down.

[Old Geezer Richard]

  Hey BadData & Dallastar , I found those radiator caps with the temp gauge at Advance Auto parts and they were $25 ... I put one on my old jeep and it looked neat but after awhile the moister starts to seep under the glass and fog it up and stays there ... how accurate they are , who knows ... Thanks the Geezer

[john]

200 ... 215 ...
normal for the beast on the true-temp

[John U.]

  Hey BadData & Dallastar , I found those radiator caps with the temp gauge at Advance Auto parts and they were $25 ... I put one on my old jeep and it looked neat but after awhile the moister starts to seep under the glass and fog it up and stays there ... how accurate they are , who knows ... Thanks the Geezer

Those things were first available about 4 years ago. They are cheaply made. Some work some are defective. I bought two, one is working still. The other registered the temperature just fine but it wouldn't allow the coolant to return to the radiator when it cools down. This resulted in a gradual transfer of the coolant out of the radiator to the overflow tank each time the coolant got hot. The overflow tank overflowed and the radiator needed to be refilled manually.

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

I was always told that oil should get to  at least 212 degrees to keep moisture out of the oil system. I have seen engines with sludge all in the bottom of the oil pan and under the valve covers because of water in the oil. 
   We heat bearings in oil all the time to over 300 degrees to help slip them on shafts that are shink fit. I run synth. oil and I wouldn't worry about it getting too hot. If it does most likely the engine will be toast.