Afraid to switch - C/T

[twdurdentwd]

Toyo Proxes on mine for about 20,000 miles but put a nail through it and it was getting old anyway.
Just bought and installed a Vredestrian Sportrac 3 in 205/60-16 on Tuesday morning. This is the next size shorter from the one Joshcornkid has on his bike. Look up a few threads above this one.  Not a lot of experience with this tire yet but I can tell you the crown on this tire definitely feels more like a bike tire than the Toyo did. Also the deep pattern in the center of the tire will be a great asset in our Florida rains. Great handling and a super rain tire....what more could you ask for.

That's awesome thank you

[Wewaman]

here's anoher site for you to dive into.

www.mcdarksiders.forumotion.com

have fun ,
Wewa

[Former BMW Guy]

Sorry...I couldn't resist.

Here is a good video: http://www.tiretony.com/2013/03/the-darkside/

Here is an equally good article: http://www.ridermagazine.com/browse-by-type/tires/tales-from-the-dark-side-putting-car-tires-on-motorcycles.htm/

Good luck!

JP

[HayHauler]

These were the videos that convinced me to use a CT.  Dag is very detailed and I trust him a great deal.  Have 90k on CTs now and am very happy. 
They are not for everyone, but they work very well for me.   
The facts are presented, you decide. 

http://www.valkyrienorway.com/darkside.html

Hay
Jimmyt

[sawdustar]

Ok....I know what tire size to put on my VTX1300 for my son and on my VT1100 for my other son. I'm trying to figure out what size to put on the Valk....for me.

Stock Size - 180-70-16 MT
This puts the side wall height at 126mm

I'd LIKE to go with a 195-70-16 but I can't find one.
So...my next "like to" size would be a 205-65-16 which is a side wall height of 133.25mm, which "should" drop my cruising RPMs just a tad. I'm just concerned that the tire will rub when riding 2-up. True?

A 205-60-16 would put me at a side wall height of 123mm which "should" increase my cruising RPMs a touch. Right?

I've read enough tonight to understand that I will have to remove some nut cover/flange inside the rear fender. Do I really need to do that?

Educate me more. I spend over 12 hours a day poking on a computer and I suffer from dry eyes from reading all the time for my job....so reading as much as I have tonight leaves my eyes in dry pain.

I'm not asking you to do my homework for me.....just advise me.
I'm 5' 8" tall.....I weigh 250 lbs. my rider would be about my height and around 135 lbs.

I am truly thankful for this forum......!!!!

[gordonv]

I thought it was the 205-60 which is closes to the stock Valk tire size.

205-65 will work, and is a larger diameter lowers the RPM by about 300 at 3300.

Along with the 205-55.

[Crackerborn]

I put 205/60-16 on mine. I don't think the nut cages needed to be removed but I did it anyway.

[john]

                   put motorcycle tires on your car ?
      I just can't see it ... ain't go'in there ...       

[R J]

                   put motorcycle tires on your car ?
      I just can't see it ... ain't go'in there ...       

During WWII we used to put motorcycle tires on our car.   Both vehicles took 600X16 and grandpa had more useable motorcycle tires than car tires.  He even cut rubber tires rims off and put steel back on the tractor.   During WWII during rationing, you'd be surprised at the things farmers in particular did to get transportation.   We also had 2 fuel tanks on the tractor.   A little one for gas to start it, and then a tank of kerosene to run it on.    One of the tractors broke a piston.    My Uncle and Grandpa tore it down, removed the piston and the rod, welded the piston hole shut and put it back together.   It ran on 3 cylinders till the end of the war.

We even used rope wound around the rim then put the tire on.  Rope worked as an inner tube.

[DarkSideR]

I watch the Tony tire guy video and haven't had such a good laugh in a long, long time. 

Here's a guy drawing on a white board telling me "motorcycle tires are round". My goodness if I had posted something like that on the VRCC board I would feel rather ashamed of myself. It appears the Nay-Sayers are getting desperate. Yet again here's some guy telling you that it absolutely cannot work when he hasn't tried it or seen it work. It seems everything on the internet is true! Except the darksider stating he has XX,XXX miles on a CT with no problems.

The video however did enlighten me to my new favorite term, "Camber Thrust!". Man, you can't ever get enough Camber Thrust can you?

[Skinhead]

I watch the Tony tire guy video and haven't had such a good laugh in a long, long time.  

Here's a guy drawing on a white board telling me "motorcycle tires are round". My goodness if I had posted something like that on the VRCC board I would feel rather ashamed of myself. It appears the Nay-Sayers are getting desperate. Yet again here's some guy telling you that it absolutely cannot work when he hasn't tried it or seen it work. It seems everything on the internet is true! Except the darksider stating he has XX,XXX miles on a CT with no problems.

The video however did enlighten me to my new favorite term, "Camber Thrust!". Man, you can't ever get enough Camber Thrust can you?

Smokin'Joe and Reb need to send that dude some pictures of their bike's inability to develop camber thrust (in Kg or Lbs).  I know they have been struggling with over coming that issue.

[Former BMW Guy]

I watch the Tony tire guy video and haven't had such a good laugh in a long, long time. 

Here's a guy drawing on a white board telling me "motorcycle tires are round". My goodness if I had posted something like that on the VRCC board I would feel rather ashamed of myself. It appears the Nay-Sayers are getting desperate. Yet again here's some guy telling you that it absolutely cannot work when he hasn't tried it or seen it work. It seems everything on the internet is true! Except the darksider stating he has XX,XXX miles on a CT with no problems.

The video however did enlighten me to my new favorite term, "Camber Thrust!". Man, you can't ever get enough Camber Thrust can you?

Its pretty basic, really.
Here is a simpler explanation:
On motorcycles, camber thrust contributes to the centripetal force necessary to cause the vehicle to deviate from a straight path, along with cornering force due to the slip angle, can be the largest contributor, and in some cases is the sole contributor. Camber thrust contributes to the ability of bikes to negotiate a turn with the same radius as automobiles but with a smaller steering angle. When a bike is steered and leaned in the same direction, the camber angle of the front tire is greater than that of the rear and so can generate more camber thrust, all else being equal.

In other words: When your bike is traveling in other than a straight line, it is leaned over. That changes the location of the contact patch from the middle of the tire to the side.

Because the tire profile is a curve, the distance from the inner and outer edges of that new contact patch to the center of the wheel axle is different. It is that difference that causes the tire to generate what is called a 'camber thrust' - meaning an attempt to make the bike turn a tighter radius than it is currently traveling. (The outer edge of the contact patch IS traveling faster than is the inner edge.)

Hope this helps.

[DarkSideR]

I watch the Tony tire guy video and haven't had such a good laugh in a long, long time.  

Here's a guy drawing on a white board telling me "motorcycle tires are round". My goodness if I had posted something like that on the VRCC board I would feel rather ashamed of myself. It appears the Nay-Sayers are getting desperate. Yet again here's some guy telling you that it absolutely cannot work when he hasn't tried it or seen it work. It seems everything on the internet is true! Except the darksider stating he has XX,XXX miles on a CT with no problems.

The video however did enlighten me to my new favorite term, "Camber Thrust!". Man, you can't ever get enough Camber Thrust can you?

Its pretty basic, really.
Here is a simpler explanation:
On motorcycles, camber thrust contributes to the centripetal force necessary to cause the vehicle to deviate from a straight path, along with cornering force due to the slip angle, can be the largest contributor, and in some cases is the sole contributor. Camber thrust contributes to the ability of bikes to negotiate a turn with the same radius as automobiles but with a smaller steering angle. When a bike is steered and leaned in the same direction, the camber angle of the front tire is greater than that of the rear and so can generate more camber thrust, all else being equal.

In other words: When your bike is traveling in other than a straight line, it is leaned over. That changes the location of the contact patch from the middle of the tire to the side.

Because the tire profile is a curve, the distance from the inner and outer edges of that new contact patch to the center of the wheel axle is different. It is that difference that causes the tire to generate what is called a 'camber thrust' - meaning an attempt to make the bike turn a tighter radius than it is currently traveling. (The outer edge of the contact patch IS traveling faster than is the inner edge.)

Hope this helps.

It does. I will remember that when scrapping the pegs round the corners, while my 205/60 R16 C/T generates Camber Thrust as it has been doing for last 23,000 miles.  

[old2soon]

Camber thrust coefficient of adhesion angle of the dangle  pie r squared-NO-pie r round.  At one point in Valkyrie ownership-think of it as before becoming enlightened by the D/S-the E-3s that came on mine were my only cause for concern. They broke loose in the rain  and once or twice on dry pavement.  I am on my 3d D/S choice AND the only place I could get them to break loose-D/S tire-is at one of those very smooth intersections with some water on the road. Last year prior to I-13 my brother and I rode most of the way from his place to Indiana in the rain to visit Wayne(Solo 1)and his sons. On U S 30 which has a few worn spots here and there.  In that driving rain our traction was never in doubt. So-yup-I am a convert. When some one TRIES desperately to tell me it won't work they are most generally talkin at my tail lights and exhaust pipes.  RIDE SAFE.

[R J]

old2soon ole buddy.

Don't ya mean they is speaking out their arse cause their mouth knows better?

[DarkSideR]

I wonder if twdurdentwd has any nails left after all this? I told you this would open a huge can of worms!

I was the 4th post in the thread and I think I pretty much nailed it in that post.

[twdurdentwd]

I watch the Tony tire guy video and haven't had such a good laugh in a long, long time.  

Here's a guy drawing on a white board telling me "motorcycle tires are round". My goodness if I had posted something like that on the VRCC board I would feel rather ashamed of myself. It appears the Nay-Sayers are getting desperate. Yet again here's some guy telling you that it absolutely cannot work when he hasn't tried it or seen it work. It seems everything on the internet is true! Except the darksider stating he has XX,XXX miles on a CT with no problems.

The video however did enlighten me to my new favorite term, "Camber Thrust!". Man, you can't ever get enough Camber Thrust can you?

Its pretty basic, really.
Here is a simpler explanation:
On motorcycles, camber thrust contributes to the centripetal force necessary to cause the vehicle to deviate from a straight path, along with cornering force due to the slip angle, can be the largest contributor, and in some cases is the sole contributor. Camber thrust contributes to the ability of bikes to negotiate a turn with the same radius as automobiles but with a smaller steering angle. When a bike is steered and leaned in the same direction, the camber angle of the front tire is greater than that of the rear and so can generate more camber thrust, all else being equal.

In other words: When your bike is traveling in other than a straight line, it is leaned over. That changes the location of the contact patch from the middle of the tire to the side.

Because the tire profile is a curve, the distance from the inner and outer edges of that new contact patch to the center of the wheel axle is different. It is that difference that causes the tire to generate what is called a 'camber thrust' - meaning an attempt to make the bike turn a tighter radius than it is currently traveling. (The outer edge of the contact patch IS traveling faster than is the inner edge.)

Hope this helps.

It does. I will remember that when scrapping the pegs round the corners, while my 205/60 R16 C/T generates Camber Thrust as it has been doing for last 23,000 miles.  

Lol +1 

[twdurdentwd]

I wonder if twdurdentwd has any nails left after all this? I told you this would open a huge can of worms!

I was the 4th post in the thread and I think I pretty much nailed it in that post.

Can of worms it is lol... all the posts have helped me make a decision...now I need to make a decision on whether to trade this STD in for an I/S I'm looking at...then I will switch 

[MP]

I watch the Tony tire guy video and haven't had such a good laugh in a long, long time. 

Here's a guy drawing on a white board telling me "motorcycle tires are round". My goodness if I had posted something like that on the VRCC board I would feel rather ashamed of myself. It appears the Nay-Sayers are getting desperate. Yet again here's some guy telling you that it absolutely cannot work when he hasn't tried it or seen it work. It seems everything on the internet is true! Except the darksider stating he has XX,XXX miles on a CT with no problems.

The video however did enlighten me to my new favorite term, "Camber Thrust!". Man, you can't ever get enough Camber Thrust can you?

Its pretty basic, really.
Here is a simpler explanation:
On motorcycles, camber thrust contributes to the centripetal force necessary to cause the vehicle to deviate from a straight path, along with cornering force due to the slip angle, can be the largest contributor, and in some cases is the sole contributor. Camber thrust contributes to the ability of bikes to negotiate a turn with the same radius as automobiles but with a smaller steering angle. When a bike is steered and leaned in the same direction, the camber angle of the front tire is greater than that of the rear and so can generate more camber thrust, all else being equal.

In other words: When your bike is traveling in other than a straight line, it is leaned over. That changes the location of the contact patch from the middle of the tire to the side.

Because the tire profile is a curve, the distance from the inner and outer edges of that new contact patch to the center of the wheel axle is different. It is that difference that causes the tire to generate what is called a 'camber thrust' - meaning an attempt to make the bike turn a tighter radius than it is currently traveling. (The outer edge of the contact patch IS traveling faster than is the inner edge.)

Hope this helps.

I just LOVE all the theorists who keep telling us IT CANNOT WORK!

Yet, there are LOTS of us, who have run CT's for tens of thousands of miles each, with it working just fine.

Just another example of someone who has NEVER tried something, telling us it cannot work!

By the way, do you know where I can get some more foot pegs?  I somehow have worn mine out, dragging them in corners, while running a CT!  LOL

MP

[R J]

If ya don'r want NEW, get ahold of Pinwall.

[Challenger]

Watched the video with great interest and now this weekend will be removing my old CT with 34000 miles on it, I will be mounting my new General Altimax HP that arrived via UPS yesterday. I know now that it can't work, but I'm giving it one more try. 

[Skinhead]

I just LOVE all the theorists who keep telling us IT CANNOT WORK!

Yet, there are LOTS of us, who have run CT's for tens of thousands of miles each, with it working just fine.

Just another example of someone who has NEVER tried something, telling us it cannot work!

By the way, do you know where I can get some more foot pegs?  I somehow have worn mine out, dragging them in corners, while running a CT!  LOL

MP

It's not so much that it won't work, IT"S NOT SAFE!!  Didn't you watch the video?  NO Camber thrust=Flaming Death!  It's a Mathematical Fact!

[HayHauler]

You know what??!!  I don't care if you ride on a MC tire or a CT, a Harley or a Busa, stock seat or Ultimate, Honda oil/Mobil-1/Rosmella, synthetic or dino, stock air filter or K&N..........  I just want you to ride.  AND, I want to ride, but my front tire is wore slap out and I haven't had time to replace it yet......

I can't wait to see lots of y'all at the GOTF a week from today!

Hay 
Jimmyt

[uturn]

all i could see in that video with the guy yappin on and on about how bad car tires are is all the crap on his shelf behind him...stuff that is supposed to magically clean carbs and valves and oil additives, even some radiator stop leak...and anyone with any common sense knows you never listen to a garage mechanic who uses radiator stop leak. fix the damn leak.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Ok....I know what tire size to put on my VTX1300 for my son and on my VT1100 for my other son. I'm trying to figure out what size to put on the Valk....for me.

Stock Size - 180-70-16 MT
This puts the side wall height at 126mm

I'd LIKE to go with a 195-70-16 but I can't find one.
So...my next "like to" size would be a 205-65-16 which is a side wall height of 133.25mm, which "should" drop my cruising RPMs just a tad. I'm just concerned that the tire will rub when riding 2-up. True?

A 205-60-16 would put me at a side wall height of 123mm which "should" increase my cruising RPMs a touch. Right?

I've read enough tonight to understand that I will have to remove some nut cover/flange inside the rear fender. Do I really need to do that?

Educate me more. I spend over 12 hours a day poking on a computer and I suffer from dry eyes from reading all the time for my job....so reading as much as I have tonight leaves my eyes in dry pain.

I'm not asking you to do my homework for me.....just advise me.
I'm 5' 8" tall.....I weigh 250 lbs. my rider would be about my height and around 135 lbs.

I am truly thankful for this forum......!!!!

Sawduster, any of those sizes will work fine. I've run 205/60, 205/65, and now 195/60(which I like best by the way). Never rubbed on any of them. I'm between 195 & 210, wife is about 150(I think, she won't say). Did the nutcages anyway for the hell of it. Some guys get rubbage, probably depends on the bike. The differences in rpm's are small it doesn't make a lot of difference. I would say with your height you would be better without the 205/65 because of reach at stop lights but it's not that big of an issue either. There is a low speed handling issue with car tires but I found you get used to it pretty quickly . Hope this helps in your decision making

[twdurdentwd]

all i could see in that video with the guy yappin on and on about how bad car tires are is all the crap on his shelf behind him...stuff that is supposed to magically clean carbs and valves and oil additives, even some radiator stop leak...and anyone with any common sense knows you never listen to a garage mechanic who uses radiator stop leak. fix the damn leak.

++++++++++++1

[PhredValk]

Rear
180/70R-16 126mm

205/55  112.75mm
205/60  123mm
205/65  133.25mm
195/55  107mm
195/60  117mm
195/65  126.75mm

Welcome to the fiery death!
Fred.

[R J]

all i could see in that video with the guy yappin on and on about how bad car tires are is all the crap on his shelf behind him...stuff that is supposed to magically clean carbs and valves and oil additives, even some radiator stop leak...and anyone with any common sense knows you never listen to a garage mechanic who uses radiator stop leak. fix the damn leak.

++++++++++++1

Hey Brother, ya'll can fix the leak real easy, just pour some pepper into the radiator.   You can buy those little containers you can set on the table.   Use one of them.   Depending on the size of the leak depends on how much to put in.   Small leak, won't take very much to stop it.    Pepper doesn't dissolve, so it will hold for quite awhile.     It will stop the leak for several months.    The radiator's today are all plastic except for the core,and they are just pinched onto the tanks so no one fixes them anymore, ya just toss it and buy a new one.   We get a stack of them out behind the shop and on a slow day we load em up & sell the cores.

[Bighead]

Yep RJ I stopped a radiator leak like that one time until I could get it fixed just had a small pin hole in the top it took about 5 minutes to stop it but soon as the thermostat opened and water started circulation she stopped?

[pancho]

all i could see in that video with the guy yappin on and on about how bad car tires are is all the crap on his shelf behind him...stuff that is supposed to magically clean carbs and valves and oil additives, even some radiator stop leak...and anyone with any common sense knows you never listen to a garage mechanic who uses radiator stop leak. fix the damn leak.

Yeah,,, all his bottled repairs ...   that did stick out.

[SANDMAN5]

I've actually forgotten how many Darkside miles I have.....close to 60,000 total
on two GYTT's. I'm now running a 200 Metz. ABSOLUTELY going back to a 'car-tar'
next time. Metz isn't bad or anything, just that Darkside is better for me. Occasionally
I'll drag a peg or two, usually just cruise. 

[Gryphon Rider]

Sorry...I couldn't resist.

Here is a good video: http://www.tiretony.com/2013/03/the-darkside/

Here is an equally good article: http://www.ridermagazine.com/browse-by-type/tires/tales-from-the-dark-side-putting-car-tires-on-motorcycles.htm/

Good luck!

JP

Yes those articles are equally good, and equally narrow-minded and wilfully ignorant of overwhelming empirical evidence that carefully chosen car tires on the back wheels of cruising and touring oriented motorcycles are not hazardous or unsafe.

Yes, a less-rounded-profile car tire will not produce the same "camber thrust" as a motorcycle tire, but, as Tony Foale points out (http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Tyres/TYRES.htm), this is compensated by turning the handlebars.  The problem with all this "camber thrust" theorizing is that it it only accounts for cornering forces as if the motorcycle were a unicycle, completely ignoring the fact that the turning angle front wheel, and the fact that the front wheel follows a path outside the rear wheel, have an HUGE impact on steering a motorcycle/bicycle.  If camber thrust were the only force to counter centrifugal force, then a bicycle with extremely narrow and high-pressure tires, and thus virtually infinitely small contact patches incapable of producing camber thrust, would be impossible to steer.  Conversely, the best-handling, easiest-to-steer motorcycles would be those with very wide rounded-profile tires capable of producing huge camber thrust forces.

I think that when empirical evidence fails to confirm your hypothesis, it's time to suspend the proclamation of your hypothesis as a proven fact, and re-examine your hypothesis.

[DarkSideR]

I have a new tactic when confronted about my Darksiding habits.

I try to help them understand by relating it to another modern day conundrum. I say, "It's like the Big Bang Theory" which is still just a theory because of a couple of big reasons. One being the 1st law of Thermodynamics which states matter cannot be created or destroyed. And the other reason is the fact that if an explosion occurred the universe would be slowing down, but it is indeed speeding up. And yet even with these rather large facts there are still quite a few people who believe the Big Bang as factual." (relate to darksiding as you wish)

By this point the conversation either continues on about how God... (and now your a good guy  ), or the person will try to argue that the bang actually... Darwin... Einstein...  Car tire, what car tire?

You will have to expend the same amount of energy as if you were educating the individual on D/S'ing but at least I don't have to hear the flaming death ending.

One more good one.
When asked, "Is that a car tire on yu'r bike?" my standard response is "Well, whomever designed the tire probably had some sort of vehicle in mind, but anyone can clearly see the tire is now on the back of a motorcycle."

ps - Camber Thrust.

[twdurdentwd]

When asked, "Is that a car tire on yu'r bike?" my standard response is "Well, whomever designed the tire probably had some sort of vehicle in mind, but anyone can clearly see the tire is now on the back of a motorcycle."

ps - Camber Thrust.

+1 on this. Nice