Anyone have a opinion on the Cliven Bundy situation...

[Highbinder]

I haven't seen much about this on this forum or the main stream news networks, all the information seems to becoming from the internet...anyone got any first hand information..?

[Big Al of Tennessee]

Taxes, Tortoises and Chinese Investments in a Solar Farm.

Even Fracking has been mentioned as a reason to move ole Clives Cattle.

His family has grazed there for a long time, since 1880.

A video is all I got. Clark may have something. IM him. Or maybe a member from Nevada.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD61YFxUga4&feature=player_embedded

[Romeo]

Owes between $300,000 and $1,000,000 in grazing fees depending on who you listen to. Has lost three court cases concerning this.
The federal official responsible for trying to move him from the land was on Harry Reid's payroll previously. Harry Reid's son is the lobbyist representing the Chinese firm that builds the solar farms, that happen to be on adjacent land, where they previously moved the turtles from, that they now say are in danger from the cattle.

[MarkT]

He claimed to have precedent, his family having grazed there for decades before the BLM even existed.  Even if the BLM has the judges ruling with them, the public ain't buying it and there were a ton of patriots, right or wrong, backing him up, armed and with hundreds more enroute.  Looks like plenty of P.O.'d 2A folks are ready for a showdown and the feds weren't.  They blinked, to their credit.  It could have gotten really ugly - another Waco, and this time with the feds outgunned and the patriots feeling right is on their side with the feds overreach.  Now with the OK Corral behind them I'm sure the feds will quietly ruin him in the courts - and the IRS will abuse their position yet again, with Obummer and Holder backing them.  And some of the irony is, Fox reports the same BLM not long ago ruled against the now "endangered" tortoises.  There will be a reckoning against the govt.  But this time wasn't it.

[tank_post142]

based on the govt reaction to this: I'm going to park were ever i want from now on. if the people have decided that its not the govt's job to enforce laws and the welfare of publicly owned lands then they have no right to complain when i park in the middle of a 4 lane road so I can walk to a store.

[Highbinder]

I'm hearing that the Fed. pull back was just a ploy to regroup, they weren't expecting the support that Bundy got from the citizens, now they are reinforcing their position with more agents, drones and are going to come down hard on the Bundy family and supporters....even Harry Reid stated that this is not over, that they are criminals...seems to me its the other way around...I don't see this ending in a good way.

[Master Blaster]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/31/us-usa-china-reid-solar-idUSBRE87U06D20120831


Head of BLM is a Harry Reed stooge that is doing Harrys dirty work.   Heard that one of the reasons for stand down was the whole dirty mess was bout to go public, and they thought that their shock and awe show would scare the public into compliance, and when it backfired they didn't have a clue what to do next.   They initially tried to say it was because of the turtles, but it came out that they have been killing the turtles due to overpopulation, plus the turtles and cows coexist with no problems.   This whole fiasco has cost the taxpayer millions, and wouldn't surprise me if the order to cease came from the white house, knowing what a hit the Demoncraps  was about to get.

[Crackerborn]

Scofflaw vs overreach....... Sounds like a good cage match!!

[Brad]

Like most things the fed does they have screwed this up.  They have spent approx 5 million in tax dollars to fail to recoup 1 million that is owed to them.  On a separate note most of us here in the state of Nevada are sick and tired of having no control over the land in our state.  The federal government claims to own 86% of the land in our state.  Try doing anything in your state when you only have say over 14% of it.  It costs us years of fights and court battles to get a road built or opening a mine or any other land use plan.  There is no shortage of people willing to help with this fight and I don't think the feds are going to win this one.

[G-Man]

FOX has been showing this story regularly and even had him on their morning show that  happened to catch the other day.  Had him and his son on.  They thanked FOX for being one of the few who are covering the story.

[Serk]

In my own mind the jury is out on this particular situation. Looks like the guy was a bit of a nut, BUT as usual the feds WAY overreacted...

But this also brings up another very disturbing trend, the amount of land that's claimed to be owned by the federal government has gotten WAY out of hand. These two maps illustrate the point:

[MP]

The fight is sooooooo much more than a rancher not paying grazing fees.

It is about Fed control.  Look at Serks maps. The amount of Fed land is obscene in these states.  Their control is over bearing, and expanding daily.

For those of you who live east of these states.  Imagine your house, and the nine around it.  Now, put the Feds in ownership of EIGHT of them. 
First off, they empty 5 of them, because they are the wrong color.  They control EVERYTHING you do, and HOW you do it.
They demand you take care of it, and you have to do it EXACTLY how they want you to.

You MUST mow the lawn, BUT, you need to file for a permit to do it, and it takes 3 months, going thru 4 depts., to get that permit.

You are governed by people who have NO IDEA about what you do, or how you do it.  Your cattle have been using a pond to drink out of for a 100 years.  Then, a desk jockey in DC, decides that cattle having access to that water hole, causes pollution in that pond, so now they close off access to that pond, and you have to spend a $100k to bring in water.

If you feel the Feds have over regulated life, take that feeling, and multiply by 100 what the Feds do on Fed land.

It is soooooooo much more than what is on the surface.

MP

[fudgie]

Never heard the Gov wanting land before. 

[f6john]

Like most things the fed does they have screwed this up.  They have spent approx 5 million in tax dollars to fail to recoup 1 million that is owed to them.  On a separate note most of us here in the state of Nevada are sick and tired of having no control over the land in our state.  The federal government claims to own 86% of the land in our state.  Try doing anything in your state when you only have say over 14% of it.  It costs us years of fights and court battles to get a road built or opening a mine or any other land use plan.  There is no shortage of people willing to help with this fight and I don't think the feds are going to win this one.

     And yet the voters keep sending Reid back to Washington so we can all enjoy his inspired leadership of the Senate!  Whoopee.

[BigAlOfMD]

based on the govt reaction to this: I'm going to park were ever i want from now on. if the people have decided that its not the govt's job to enforce laws and the welfare of publicly owned lands then they have no right to complain when i park in the middle of a 4 lane road so I can walk to a store.

I don't usualy get into these discussions but, your responce is so far off base, I had to respond.
The discussion was about goverment wanting to charge for cattle grazing on grazing land and the cattle owner not wanting to pay.
The closest parking equivelent that I can think of would be parking in metered parking and not wanting to pay.
One big difference is the goverment spends our money maintaing the road and the parking meter so they can charge us again.

[POPS 57]

Not even the gov. wants to own land in Iowa.  Sorry had to call it as it is. 

[Jess from VA]

Add to what PM posted, the federal concept of wetlands on purely private property. The Fed thinks all land is wetlands.  My brother bought 20 acres and needed a bridge over a creek to gain access to it.  The amount of State and Fed interference in building this bridge was unbelievable.

One little regulator asshole walked around and suggested an environmental impact study (which would cost more than the 20 acres).  My brother was very tempted to bury him in the hill.  He asked the guy if anyone at his office knew where he was this morning.  The guy thought about that for a minute then quickly returned to the office, never to be heard from again.

[tank_post142]

based on the govt reaction to this: I'm going to park were ever i want from now on. if the people have decided that its not the govt's job to enforce laws and the welfare of publicly owned lands then they have no right to complain when i park in the middle of a 4 lane road so I can walk to a store.

I don't usualy get into these discussions but, your responce is so far off base, I had to respond.
The discussion was about goverment wanting to charge for cattle grazing on grazing land and the cattle owner not wanting to pay.
The closest parking equivelent that I can think of would be parking in metered parking and not wanting to pay.
One big difference is the goverment spends our money maintaing the road and the parking meter so they can charge us again.

your wrong. it is about the govt enforcing laws and court decisions that have stood for decades, in 1993 (21 years ago) this sack decided the law didn't apply to him. why shouldn't he pay his share? our tax dollars, as a whole, go to maintain this land the roads etc. it is exactly the same as my parking analogy it belongs to the whole people and one person or company cannot monopolize it.

ps: leasing rights to use federal land has been going on since 1792.

[Jess Tolbirt]

he said he has been paying and would pay his share,, to the people that he signed the contract to graze with,, the state of Nevada,, he has no contract with the feds..

[tank_post142]

so if i set up a contract for you to ride willow's bike, without asking him, it's screw willow i'm sticking with tank! despite years of court rulings to the contrary? that is exactly what happened here. the state of nevada leased rights that did NOT belong to them. he has been told for decades by state and federal courts to get his cattle off public land and he refuses. he is a criminal. period! and i'm a well known right winger.

[Rams]

so if i set up a contract for you to ride willow's bike, without asking him, it's screw willow i'm sticking with tank! despite years of court rulings to the contrary? that is exactly what happened here. the state of nevada leased rights that did NOT belong to them. he has been told for decades by state and federal courts to get his cattle off public land and he refuses. he is a criminal. period! and i'm a well known right winger.

Hmm, are we sure there isn't an agreement between the state and the feds to manage the aforementioned land?    I honestly don't know what agreements there are in this state but, frequently, the feds will have, allow, request or agree to allow the states to administer things.   

This I know, the feds will ignore just about everything until it or someone in power decides it's in someone's best interest to not ignore it.      Again, I'm not taking sides, I don't believe we have enough facts to make any decision but, I find it very interesting that this rancher has enough people behind him to cause this much of a ruckus.     

My bet is, this is all about money and power or in other words, who's getting the money and who's in power.    This I will admit, I quit trusting our government to follow the constitution quite a while back.   

[Hoser]

Present score, Cowboys 1, Gestapo 0.  Stay tuned.  Hoser 

[flcjr]

If he doesnt want to pay his share for the use of public land. I wonder if he would object to me grazing a few hundred along side his cattle??? I bet he would have a cow!! Do we get some free steaks??

[The emperor has no clothes]

so if i set up a contract for you to ride willow's bike, without asking him, it's screw willow i'm sticking with tank! despite years of court rulings to the contrary? that is exactly what happened here. the state of nevada leased rights that did NOT belong to them. he has been told for decades by state and federal courts to get his cattle off public land and he refuses. he is a criminal. period! and i'm a well known right winger.

+1, He's been to court several times and lost every time. And for the record those aren't fellow ranchers out there supporting him. They are anti-govt. people from other states. His fellow ranchers have paid their fees to graze and he has not.

[Clark]

Taxes, Tortoises and Chinese Investments in a Solar Farm.

Even Fracking has been mentioned as a reason to move ole Clives Cattle.

His family has grazed there for a long time, since 1880.

A video is all I got. Clark may have something. IM him. Or maybe a member from Nevada.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD61YFxUga4&feature=player_embedded

TECHNICALLY, he broke the law... PHYLISOPHICALLY he has a point and I commend him for fighting for what he feels is an injustice

[Brad]

Like most things the fed does they have screwed this up.  They have spent approx 5 million in tax dollars to fail to recoup 1 million that is owed to them.  On a separate note most of us here in the state of Nevada are sick and tired of having no control over the land in our state.  The federal government claims to own 86% of the land in our state.  Try doing anything in your state when you only have say over 14% of it.  It costs us years of fights and court battles to get a road built or opening a mine or any other land use plan.  There is no shortage of people willing to help with this fight and I don't think the feds are going to win this one.

     And yet the voters keep sending Reid back to Washington so we can all enjoy his inspired leadership of the Senate!  Whoopee.

Harry is one sneaky SOB.  This last election his campaign spent millions of dollars in the Republican primary to get a real underdog elected so that he could face her in the general election.  But to your point if you look at all of the elected reps in Washington it makes voters in general look like idiots.  At less than 5% approval all of them should be voted out and start with a clean slate.

[ucjb]

I found this report from 1990. It blows up the whole cows are killing Desert tortoise theory.
https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/rangelands/article/viewFile/10776/10049

From June 1990...
"...is evidenced by the historical record, and can essentially be summed up in six words, "the more cows, the more tortoises."
This is because "Desert tortoises feed primarily on dung. The more animals using the range," Bostick says, "the more dung, which makes more food available for tortoises.""

[flcjr]

In my own mind the jury is out on this particular situation. Looks like the guy was a bit of a nut, BUT as usual the feds WAY overreacted...

But this also brings up another very disturbing trend, the amount of land that's claimed to be owned by the federal government has gotten WAY out of hand. These two maps illustrate the point:

I doubt the accuracy of that map it shows where I live as owned by the feds. I know for sure its not nor is the land around it. The whole thing is suspect. but yes there is a lot of fed land around here.

[Serk]

flcjr - The map from the government itself lines up pretty closely to the one I linked above.

This one is from the government:



If you wanna examine the government data in more detail, here's a high resolution PDF of the federally owned lands in Montana:

http://nationalatlas.gov/printable/images/pdf/fedlands/MT.pdf

(And a listing of such maps for all states can be found here - http://nationalatlas.gov/printable/fedlands.html )

Per that same government site the feds own ~30% of the entire landmass of the US.

[Jess Tolbirt]

isnt Roosevelt the one who started reserving the land out west to keep it from being homesteaded by just a few people?

[hubcapsc]

The maps all show National Forest as federal land. In South Carolina there's
tons of inholdings (private parcels) in our National Forests, maybe less
so out west...

-Mike

[BF]

Anyone have a opinion on the Cliven Bundy situation...


No.  Other than when I first saw it on TV, my first thougt was oh no...not another Waco.  

[WamegoRob]

I doubt the accuracy of that map it shows where I live as owned by the feds. I know for sure its not nor is the land around it. The whole thing is suspect. but yes there is a lot of fed land around here.

FLCJR, the first map Serk posted shows a graphical depiction of the percentage of Federal land.
The second, is the actual location of the federal land, and correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like you're in a non-federal space to me.

[Serk]

Anyone have a opinion on...

On this forum? Anyone have an opinion on... anything? NEVER! 

[0leman]

The real question is "who owns the Public Lands".  If you got some time, google it.   There is some real questions on whether the state own these public lands or does the Fed Gov.   But the Supreme Court in the last part of 19th century said it belongs to the Fed Gov.  This has been thru the courts a lot and it really what is behind the problem in NV.

Since the High Court has made a decision on this, either the folks who believe that the states should on the lands should take it to the Supreme Court or quit complaining.

[Jeff K]

Funny how when "Occupy Wall Street" the libs all said the land was public and belonged to the people, and they had every right to take control of it... Now? Not so much.

[flamingobabe #44]

http://bbs.shootingsportsman.com/showthread.php?4352-Cliven-Bundy-rancher-vs-Al-Sharpton-leftist

Check out this link...Bundy vs. Sharpton

[Jess from VA]

Interesting thread.  Thank you. 

[flcjr]

I doubt the accuracy of that map it shows where I live as owned by the feds. I know for sure its not nor is the land around it. The whole thing is suspect. but yes there is a lot of fed land around here.

FLCJR, the first map Serk posted shows a graphical depiction of the percentage of Federal land.
The second, is the actual location of the federal land, and correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like you're in a non-federal space to me.

Not sure how you know where I live but I have posted it it before other the state?
Your close but the pinpoint isnt perfect.
The second map post is better but not perfect ethier.

[flcjr]

I don't have a problem with the use of public land state or federal. I as a public land user pay fees to maintain the  land I access for recreational use and the vast majority of those using them for profit do and should pay back to the public for its use. His beef (no pun intended) is who to pay. He says he will pay the state but not the fed. Seems like a mood point and both should find common ground and resolve it and should never have gotten this far.

I have seen first hand underhanded ranchers in this state who will post land their cattle are on that is public as private. NO HUNTING NO TRESPASSING!!!. For those in the dark would never know better and even if asked they will deny you acces with no authority because they are rich and own much around it believe you have know right to be there. This is not all and I am friends with very good ranchers that will give access to their private land and access across to get to public to anyone. This guy in Nevada rubs me the wrong way and I am not convinced he is one of the good guys.
Maybe I am wrong?? I wonder if he would object to 300 head of my cows on the same land??