Double Darkside- suggestions for the front.

[Hook#3287]

I've recently installed a rear Taxi tire on one of my bikes (very  happy) and it looks like the front will need changing out soon.  I've read older posts, but can't seem to find a consensus on what is the best, if there is one. 

Not to start a "My tire is better" string, I was hoping some of the brothers on this board, that have made the pilgrimage to the Double Dark Side, would relate their experience and suggestions.

Thanks!

[N8171S]

I am runing a Bridgestone potenza 205-60 -16  on the rear and a Kenda 150-70-17 rear tire on the front.  Ran to Florida twice done the dragon and the Blue Ridge, no problems.  My other valk still has avon cycle tires on it.

[PhredValk]

I have a Dunlop D404 130/90-17 bias rear, $123.95 delivered, on the front of my IS (only 3mm shorter than stock, the 150/70 is 15 mm shorter which would alter the speedo considerably); with a Falken Ziex ZE-512 205/65R-16 on the back, both at 40PSI with Dyna beads for balance. I've been from Edmonton, Alberta to Southern Ontario twice, over Lake Superior. It has over 20K miles on it now. This is what they looked like at 17K miles last July...



Fred.

[Hook#3287]

Thanks for the responses

N8171S, do you feel the Dark sided bike tracks as well as the bike w Avons?  Is your Kenda mounted reversed?

PhredValk, is your Dunlop D404 mounted reversed?  I can't believe how much tread you have after 17K!  That looks pretty wide.  Any tracking issues?

[olddog1946]

I too run the D404 same as Phred, and love the tire. Had in on in heavy rain, then snow, then sleet going over Snoqualmie pass and the bike never skipped a beat. I run a Federal 535 205/55/16 rear tire with a tread design similar to the Falken. Have about 20K on it now and had forgot about the difference between it and a MC tire until I started going back and forth with the BMW and Valk. But I'm still liking it.

[PhredValk]

Like Olddog said, worked really well in a two day rain from Winnipeg to SS Marie; mostly long sweepers and hills. Light to heavy rain and some fog and the tires felt great.

I didn't reverse the front tire, as I am more concerned with shedding water than I am with the possibility of tread delamination. I ride long hours when I can and get stuck in rain and hail far from home fairly often. If you mostly ride around town, or don't get much rain you might want to reverse the tire, though most of what I've read on this seems cautionary, and I don't recall anyone actually having the issue.
Fred.

[Brian]

Like Olddog said, worked really well in a two day rain from Winnipeg to SS Marie; mostly long sweepers and hills. Light to heavy rain and some fog and the tires felt great.

I didn't reverse the front tire, as I am more concerned with shedding water than I am with the possibility of tread delamination. I ride long hours when I can and get stuck in rain and hail far from home fairly often. If you mostly ride around town, or don't get much rain you might want to reverse the tire, though most of what I've read on this seems cautionary, and I don't recall anyone actually having the issue.
Fred.

Fred, you answered a question that I asked in another tire thread about a reversed mounted rear tire mounted on the front and shedding water properly. For some reason I am having a brain fart here as to why some here recommend that a rear tire on the front be installed reverse? Aren't they designed to run in only one direction regardless of what position they in on the bike. I too am in the market for a new front tire. Can a bias front be used safely with and E3 on the back?

[Hook#3287]

Aren't they designed to run in only one direction regardless of what position they in on the bike.

I don't understand the reasoning for turning them backwards either.  I thought it had to do with
de-lamination.   But the rear tire pressure on a crotch rocket w 100+hp has to be so much more than the front steering pressure of a Valk.

Maybe someone else knows the reason(s)?

[F6BANGER]

I remember someone on our board saying they talked to one of the tire manufacturers. They posted that the rear tire on the front should be reversed because of lamination reasons. I personally didnt talk to the tire company. This does make sense. I run my front tire backwards for that reason(KENDA CHALLENGER 130/90-17 on the front and General altimax 205/60-16 rear). I also live in New Mexico and we don get much rain. When it does rain, I slow down anyway.

[PhredValk]

According to mfgrs (can't remember which) the tread cap on a rear tire is lapped so that the forward  torque from acceleration won't hurt the tire; and rearward toque of braking is not nearly as hard as on the front tire. The front tire is lapped reverse to this, as there is no acceleration torque on the front tire, but the huge braking torque needs to be addressed. This is the theory, but I don't think I've ever read that any rear tire became damaged in this way.

According to Michellin, it should be safe to have a radial tire on the rear and bias tire on the front of a motorcycle; the reverse is not true and possibly dangerous.
Fred.

[vanagon40]

I believe that no one can provide a scientific explanation regarding why a rear tire mounted on the front should be mounted one way or the other.

In 2008, Fla. Jim provided some correspondence with the tire manufacturers:  http://www.valkyrieforum.com/forum/tech_archive.cgi?read=1216540.

The suggestion was that the forces applied to the tread joint were reversed from front to rear.  Therefore, the front tire should be mounted in reverse to the rear rotation.

Others have rejected that theory, claiming water shedding siping as a more important concern.  However, I have never seen any explanation, much less a scientific explanation, to justify running tire in any given direction for water shedding siping.

In fact, just looking at the tire tread would appear to negate the water shedding siping theory.  In the photo below, the tire on the left is my Dunlop K491 E3 mounted backwards on the front.  On the right is a Dunlop D404 in the proper direction.  It looks to me that if the D404 (right) is mounted correctly for proper water shedding siping, the K491 E3 (left) is also mounted for the best water shedding siping.  Again, I am not a scientist or tire engineer.  But I have never heard a valid explanation as to why proper water shedding siping is achieved with the  K491 E3 mounted in the opposite direction than shown in my photo.

I adhere to my original proposition that no one can provide a persuasive scientific explanation regarding why a rear tire mounted on the front should be mounted one way or the other.



Finally, looking at the OEM tires Honda designed for the Valkyrie, it would appear that the tread direction is reversed front to rear.  The photo below shows my OEM tires, rear on the left and front on the right, with the red arrows showing the direction of rotation.

[old grouch]

I am not an expert either, but having read several posts both here & on TrikeTalk forum, the conventional wisdom, including information from at least two tire mfgrs, is the lamination issue is the reason for reverse mounting the front.  I am pretty sure I read those e-mails from the tire mfgrs on TrikeTalk.  Almost all the trike riders (me included) run a rear tire reversed on the front.  The trike folks also say that the "correct rotation mounting" of the rear tire on the front will tend to disperse water outwards towards the track of the rear wheels, possibly increasing the risk of hydroplaning.  The opposite effect would be true on a two wheeler.  FWIW.  Stan

[olddog1946]

As far as Bias/radial setup, I have the D404 in the Bias ply up front, mounted in reverse.




and the Federal 535 Radial in the rear.



As I noted before, it's been in heavy rain, snow and sleet on the mountain pass and solid as a rock.
When I ran into that snow storm I was almost ready to turn around and head back home but was on I90 and had a mile or so to go before I could turn around, and had NO trouble getting there so I kept on going.

[Hook#3287]

Thanks for all the posts!

I think I'll give that D404 a try, I like the way it looks.

[Bone]

Here is the combination I've been using. The front is a D404 (Bias) front tire. My 4th front getting 13K to 19K. I've changed one out early before a cross country trip not wanting to mess with it on the road. The rear has been GYTT that works great with my solo set-up.

[Brian]

Awesome info guys, thank you. I too will give the D404 mounted reverse a try.  The left side of my front E3 is about gone with 10,000 miles on it.

[MP]

I run the D404 130/90 bias on front too.  I told them to mount reversed, but they put it on front wards.  I have a CT on the rear.

The combo of the D404 bias, and the CT, is the best handling combo I have found to date.  I LOVE IT!

MP

[Hook#3287]

Hey Bone!

Did you do any mods to get that GYTT to work?   I like the look of that tire, also.

[Bone]

Did the nut cage mod for the first CT. Got 40K plus on the first GYTT running 34#-36#.
The clearance between the drive shaft tube and tire is small but doesn't rub.
They handle wet roads very well.

[old2soon]

Pulled the trigger on a D-404. My Shinko isn't completely worn out BUT it won't take me thru this coming year. Since i've had my I/S i'm putting a new front tire on every season. My D/S is going to be fine for the upcoming season. Those of you already running the D-404 are the reason i'm buying one.  Again taking advantage of ALL the knowledge out here.  THANKS and RIDE SAFE.

[Hook#3287]

Did the nut cage mod for the first CT. Got 40K plus on the first GYTT running 34#-36#.
The clearance between the drive shaft tube and tire is small but doesn't rub.
They handle wet roads very well.

Thanks for the info, I like the looks of that tire and may give it a go next time I need one.

I also pulled the trigger on a D404 and ordered it up from Chaparral for under $100.00 w/shipping.  I made my informed choice from the recommendations of others on this board.  It really is great to have this HUGE info well to draw from.

Weather man says rain on Friday and 50's on Sat.  Hope it rains hard enough to wash the salt off the roads.

[Harryc]

Old thread but I know several of you are still active here. Is the D404 still considered a good choice for a front tire if you have a CT on the rear? Also since this is a double-darkside thread, we're talking about a rear D404 mounted reverse rotation in the front right? If so, what size D404? I am guessing it's a D404 130/80/17 Rear tire for the front.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Old thread but I know several of you are still active here. Is the D404 still considered a good choice for a front tire if you have a CT on the rear? Also since this is a double-darkside thread, we're talking about a rear D404 mounted reverse rotation in the front right? If so, what size D404? I am guessing it's a D404 130/80/17 Rear tire for the front.

Harry, the Dunlop 404 is probably the most common one used. I think Bill still uses them. I'm not a big fan of Dunlops. I've been using a Michelin Pilot Activ in 150/70. I like it.

[dr.danh]

Old thread but I know several of you are still active here. Is the D404 still considered a good choice for a front tire if you have a CT on the rear? Also since this is a double-darkside thread, we're talking about a rear D404 mounted reverse rotation in the front right? If so, what size D404? I am guessing it's a D404 130/80/17 Rear tire for the front.

Harry, the Dunlop 404 is probably the most common one used. I think Bill still uses them. I'm not a big fan of Dunlops. I've been using a Michelin Pilot Activ in 150/70. I like it.

Did you reverse the activ? And where did you get yours?

[Valkorado]

I recerntly had a 150/70 Activ mounted on my Interstate at the local shop, reverse tread with a bottle of Ride-On. It still has some teats on it, and my jury's still out.  It handles well at speed, but I'm getting a phunky vibe in the bars at town speeds.  I even loosened the axle and pinch bolts and mounted it according to the service manual, no luck.  Not sure if I'll see if it mellows with some more miles or just bite the bullet and get another Cobra.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Old thread but I know several of you are still active here. Is the D404 still considered a good choice for a front tire if you have a CT on the rear? Also since this is a double-darkside thread, we're talking about a rear D404 mounted reverse rotation in the front right? If so, what size D404? I am guessing it's a D404 130/80/17 Rear tire for the front.

Harry, the Dunlop 404 is probably the most common one used. I think Bill still uses them. I'm not a big fan of Dunlops. I've been using a Michelin Pilot Activ in 150/70. I like it.

Did you reverse the activ? And where did you get yours?

My first one I did. The second one I got mixed up and didn't. I was too lazy to remove it and turn it over. We get very little rain here. I've had it in a couple down pours and it did fine. It might be a little noisier under braking not reversed. I don't remember where I got it. Maybe Motorcycle Superstore. I usually compare a few places and go with the cheapest.

[Hook#3287]

Harry, I run the Dunlop D404 rear reversed on three of my bikes.

The green and black tourer I road to OSS's ride last Columbus Day is a dbl dark side bike.

The bobber is also dbl dark side.

I'm getting ready to put a front on another bike and probably will do it again.

Ive had only good experience with them.

Did a 70 mph ride home, on the highway in a rain storm and it handled just fine.

[Harryc]

Thanks or the replies everyone. @Hook#3287, the D404's are certainly reasonably priced these days so I'll give it a shot. I have a Cobra front that still has good tread after 10k miles so I'll run that for awhile more. The Cobra rear is just about done at 10k. The Laufenn rear CT will be on the bike in a week or two.

[dr.danh]

How about the Avon Roadrider 130-90-17. Any experience with it on frt. ? And Reversed or not?

[Jess from VA]

How about the Avon Roadrider 130-90-17. Any experience with it on frt. ? And Reversed or not?

I ran one a few years ago.  Reversed.  It was slippery as hell for several hundred miles.  Once scuffed in, it was just OK, but not really confidence inspiring (compared to correct size radial fronts).  And I only got barely 7K out of it.... so much for the extra rear tread depth.  I wouldn't do it again.

I then tried an undersized (a bit shorter) 140 Michelin Commander II (front radial on the front), and it is a great tire.  No release agent to speak of, sticks like glue from brand new, very good handling.... but, I am lucky to get 7K on one.  I'd do it again, except for the crummy miles (esp since I bought two).

The whole purpose of my experimenting was to get a good tire (bias or radial, rear on front if possible (reversed), that gives good confidence inspiring handling, AND HIGHER MILES THAN MY USUAL RADIAL FRONTS.  Which is not happening.

These undersize 130/140 fronts clearly have a smaller carcass than the 150s, and are really fine for ordinary riding around (and flatlands).  But you get in mountain twisties going downhill at a brisk pace then lean it over through a board dragging corner, they do not give the confidence that full size 150s do.  The shorter tire is not really an issue, carcass strength is the issue.

I have about decided to quit trying, except Meathead's Michelin Pilot Activ in 150/70 sounds interesting.  I won't run Dunlops.

[DeathWishBikerDude]

I ran Kenda 130 90 17 on the front with reverse rotation.needed a short ride to scuff the tires but I got a lot more wear from the tire.I was replacing metzelors every season.

[MarkT]

I really don't think the pattern matters one bit for water displacement re: hydroplaning with rounded bike tires. They displace water like the prow of a boat, not flat like a ski. I hit water a foot deep and maybe a hundred feet long, once at 70, thought it was a puddle.  Nothing happened except for the geyser of water.

I prefer a Batlax BT45 myself, have run that for years on my Valks and GW. Turned backwards, in 130 width.

[dr.danh]

o.k, pulled the trigger from Jake Wilson tires. On the Dunflop 404 130-90-17. Never liked that brand but for the price and suggestions Ill give it a whirl. 83. bucks. Guess ill reverse the tread also.

[DeathWishBikerDude]

Update on the dunflop?

https://www.chapmoto.com/kenda-k671-cruiser-st-rear-tire.html?sku=328-7364&gclid=CjwKCAjwrPCGBhALEiwAUl9X05f5v3WqAGUxA8Npn_6e3vZhnUrO0xPcdGnTM87-MlQL4DoCNRS69hoCRYkQAvD_BwE

[Earl43P]

https://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=372965086316&category=124313&pm=1&ds=0&t=1617752745000&ver=0&cspheader=1

I just ordered this for my IS. ^
Shinko 890 front lasted 9k with light cupping and is close to the wear bars. I didn't like it much. 42 psi.
I ran a Michelin Pilot Activ rear on the front, reversed, and it lasted long but also cupped. I did like it. 130/90-17 at 42psi.

[Ken aka Oil Burner]

https://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=372965086316&category=124313&pm=1&ds=0&t=1617752745000&ver=0&cspheader=1

I just ordered this for my IS. ^
Shinko 890 front lasted 9k with light cupping and is close to the wear bars. I didn't like it much. 42 psi.
I ran a Michelin Pilot Activ rear on the front, reversed, and it lasted long but also cupped. I did like it. 130/90-17 at 42psi.

I have those Dunlop Trailsmart tires currently on my V Strom. The deal was too good to pass up. I don't know if it said it in the ad, but the reason why the tires are at super prices is because the build dates are from 2016 and 2017. Didn't bother me any, and they were obviously kept from the elements. No visible signs of age, and they are great tires. I am curious as to how the Dunlop does as a double darkside front tire for the Valk. Please keep us informed. If nothing else, I think it will look pretty cool!

[98valk]

o.k, pulled the trigger from Jake Wilson tires. On the Dunflop 404 130-90-17. Never liked that brand but for the price and suggestions Ill give it a whirl. 83. bucks. Guess ill reverse the tread also.

I have the Dunlop D404 in same size now for 15k miles. might see 30k from it.  it is pressure sensitive, I maintain the max sidewall pressure of 41 psi.

last 130/90-17 I used was the a ContiGo tire which is v-rated. lasted 28k. 

[DeathWishBikerDude]

https://imgshare.io/image/pYrb8K