Darkside Accidents?

[PAVALKER]

Does anyone have any info regarding MC accidents caused by a Car Tire (on the bike, not another car)?

People usually against the Darkside say they have heard of too many accidents with car tires?  Well, I think there are more accidents with bike tires, than car tires, but none that I am aware of that were specifically caused by a CT failure.

This argument against car tires is almost like the argument of guns killing people, not people killing people. 

Any documented cases?  Any personal experiences?

And any documented cases of a rider being held legally responsible for an accident because of their Darkside choice?  I can't find any proof on that either...

[Bighead]

nope.

[big poppa pump]

Had a blowout on a CT tire today. Still not sure what exactly happened. Luckily I was riding only @ 30 mph on a backroad, so was able to pull over to the side safely.

[HayHauler]

Had a blowout on a CT tire today. Still not sure what exactly happened. Luckily I was riding only @ 30 mph on a backroad, so was able to pull over to the side safely.

What tire, what pressure, and how many miles did you have on it? 
I have 110,000 miles on them and never had so much as a flat.  I had one go down on me at work, but it had a screw in it.  I pumped it back up with my pump in the saddlebag and rode it home to plug it.

Thanks,
Hay 
Jimmyt

[Pappy!]

Am a firm believer that the car tires are noticeably safer in stopping in the wet stuff and have probably saved more butts than sacrificed.
They are probably more durable than a MC tire when it comes to flats from road debris as well. Again, that may save you more than the alternative.
Purchase a run-flat and you eliminate that issue as well.

[old2soon]

Other than half truths innuendo and outright lies have not seen a substantiated truth on a car tire failure used on a M/C. I get looks questions and the usual-cain't no way in hell work ever.  Other than B P Ps failure not heard of any. Course  have had folks tell me flaming death and other painful chit yada yada yada!  I know I'm north of 70000 miles D/S BUT I'm still new at it. RIDE SAFE.

[Jess from VA]

I have also never heard or read of a single accident specifically attributed to running a car tire.

Any tire can blow out or go flat (or delaminate), that's not an accident (though it could cause one), it's a tire failure.  For my money, there's a lot more documented tire failures in bike tires than car tires (and yes, there's a lot more bike tires in use than car tires, but you know what I mean; car tires are much more durable).

It does a lot of things better than a bike tire, but it is not as neutral as a bike tire.  It does change handling and some geometries a bit and can wiggle around some.  If you don't like it, can't handle it, don't do it.  

But leave me alone about it.  

[The emperor has no clothes]

Had a blowout on a CT tire today. Still not sure what exactly happened. Luckily I was riding only @ 30 mph on a backroad, so was able to pull over to the side safely.

Glad you weren't hurt  That's got to be pretty scary even at 30. We were coming back from a ride a week ago and my buddies rear tire came delaminated at 80-85. Luckily nobody was hurt.

[Hook#3287]

I had a potential accident, I had a very wide car tire that picked up a nail or screw , hit the swingarm and put a slice in the sidewall.

Because the tire was so wide, when it went flat, I could control it pretty easily.

[PAVALKER]

I had a potential accident, I had a very wide car tire that picked up a nail or screw , hit the swingarm and put a slice in the sidewall.

Because the tire was so wide, when it went flat, I could control it pretty easily.

I've had a flat/blow out on a rear bike tire 2up and it is a bad feeling.  I thought that same thing about getting a flat on car tire and hoped the flat spot widths would help.  However, the ATT is not a wider tire but does have a wider flatter section, which is the same.

I have also never heard or read of a single accident specifically attributed to running a car tire.

Any tire can blow out or go flat (or delaminate), that's not an accident (though it could cause one), it's a tire failure.  For my money, there's a lot more documented tire failures in bike tires than car tires (and yes, there's a lot more bike tires in use than car tires, but you know what I mean; car tires are much more durable).

It does a lot of things better than a bike tire, but it is not as neutral as a bike tire.  It does change handling and some geometries a bit and can wiggle around some.  If you don't like it, can't handle it, don't do it.  

But leave me alone about it.  

Jess,  I agree about more bike tire issues than car tire issues.  And I'm not just talking on bikes.  At one point had 3 car/trucks and one bike.  And the bike tires had way more issues than the cars.

Before I went Darkside I researched it, but could never find any documented cases.  I agree any tire can have a flat or blow out, but curious in how a CT might handle in that situation.  I can only speculate.

I imagine that a CT may have somewhat contributed to an accident because the operator didn't understand the difference in handling, but think there are more documented bike accidents due to inexperienced operator overall rather than just with a CT.

Big Poppa Pump.....  We are interested in hearing more details about that blow out I think.  I saw it on FB as well.  How did it handle after the rapid air loss?

[Earl43P]

Guilty, but a bike tire might have reacted the same. Mother's Day 2014.

Sitting at a red light, waiting to turn right on red onto a wide boulevard two blocks from the house. Out of state driver in front of me wouldn't turn right on red with NOTHING oncoming, either lane, which got me a bit exercised.

Green light, off he goes and I follow respectably behind. He opts for the right lane so I swing wider and take the left lane and begin to exit the turn. He immediately drifts into the left lane right in front of me (plenty of distance to react) so I continue to bank righter, taking to the right lane as I pass over THE WHITE LINE accelerating WAY too vigorously, now in second gear.

This was my first car tire on the Valk and it had pretty square edges (205/60-16). That bugger broke loose on the white line, giving me the old "oh crap" significant fishtail and I did everything wrong. I rolled off the gas AND pulled in the clutch. She stood straight back up and I was just along for the ride.

The ensuing tank slapper, with 3 hard bounces of the stops, FLUNG me like an apple off a stick. My chest hit the mirror and the windshield (broke it) and she skittered down the boulevard without me as I lay near the curb, dazed.

A nice lady in nurse scrubs angle stopped her car blocking both lanes and runs up to me as I'm crawling on my hands and knees to shut the key off (tunes were blaring but the engine was off).

She had already called 911 so some time had elapsed (was I just dazed or out cold for a few?). Full compliment response from the station 1 mile away, blah. A couple of Coasties helped me upright the bike and pushed it to the parking lot. Talk about embarrassing. I later rode it home the two blocks, after EMT, Fire Dept and Poleece chatted with me. Declined transport, no blood. Poleece Lt. gave me a pass, said I was having a bad enough day.

Later, after surveying the damage (badly scraped engine guard, scrapes on right saddlebag, right passenger speaker housing and a crack on the right fairing edge, etc.) I found some pretty severe bruising on my torso and legs. I drove my truck to the store for some cigs and had some pretty sharp abdominal pains. Went to the ER and sat in their waiting room, drinking two bottles of water. My wife was out of town.

After 3 hours of no blood in my pee and having written a full page of symptoms and sequence of events / timeline, I left, still kicking. (never signed in to be seen). Went across two parking lots to my buddy AJ's back yard / garage and shot the breeze with him for a couple of beers (him, not me) while he harassed me about being a dumb@$$ and regaled me with his tales of going down in years past (long-time Harley rider).

I firmly believe a bike tire also would have fishtailed, given the amount of goosing I gave it and the dampness of the roadway / white line sticker. I've since put a Yoko Envigor 195/55-16 on it , making it accelerate even sportier, but I have a lot more respect for the right wrist. Sorry for the wall of text and no pics.

[Hooter]

Had a blowout on a CT tire today. Still not sure what exactly happened. Luckily I was riding only @ 30 mph on a backroad, so was able to pull over to the side safely.

What tire, what pressure, and how many miles did you have on it? 
I have 110,000 miles on them and never had so much as a flat.  I had one go down on me at work, but it had a screw in it.  I pumped it back up with my pump in the saddlebag and rode it home to plug it.

Thanks,
Hay 
Jimmyt

   I think it depends on how they are treated and what foreign object ends up in them. I would suspect (?) they would pick up more crap than a MT due to tread width and design? Pressure should be checked periodically, maybe more than a MT? I'm goin for it here in a few weeks as soon as the roads clear a bit. Never heard of a CT going flat or blowing out for reason other than what you have stated or air pressure isn't monitored?  Probably in comparison to a MT there is less chance of blowing out? Could be wrong.

[Wewaman]

I posted an incident with a DS tire that Possibly saved my butt.
( Double Darkside..... uh oh  )

Nothing but PRAISE for the CT

Wewaman

[Firefighter]

Bikers I know who do the dark side say they love it and will defend their views. I am also DS but if I point out about a MC tire handling better in certain conditions such as an uneven alley with potholes, these guys will get upset and say I'm wrong, the car tire works just as good. Would think we were talking football!

The only DS bad mouthing I have heard is dealers and MC shops. They see me with my car tire and want to preach to me and send me down the road. One MC shop told me of an incident where a rider got too close to the road edge and was pulled off the road and crashed. Then said he would never work on my bike, I was just wanting an opinion about something, I do my on repairs, mostly.

I know DS is not forgiving with the edge of the road so I ride alert.

[PAVALKER]

Guilty, but a bike tire might have reacted the same. Mother's Day 2014.

I firmly believe a bike tire also would have fishtailed, given the amount of goosing I gave it and the dampness of the roadway / white line sticker. I've since put a Yoko Envigor 195/55-16 on it , making it accelerate even sportier, but I have a lot more respect for the right wrist. Sorry for the wall of text and no pics.

Yep, I believe a Bike tire would have responded similarly to the conditions and input, and possibly even more so.  I have yet to have my CT slide on a white line, but have had that happen on more bike tires, including front bike tires.  Hell....even my tennis shoes are slick on that stuff when it's wet.

I have had rear tire steering experiences on bike tires and car tires.  The previous CT was not comfortable in that regard, but the ATT is a gem. 

[Jack]

I had the infamous broken air stem go and didn't realize I had a flat until I went into a sharp corner too hot.  Got a bit squirrely but was able to regain control.  Got squirrely on a tar strip a few years ago as well.  These are the only two issues I have had in 16 years.  Could have been far worse if I had had a m/c tire on the Valk.

[Jess from VA]

Got out for a 120 miles yesterday.  First time in awhile.

There's still a lot of sand everywhere.

Had my first CT slide.  Made a left at a light.  There was a good dip entering the turn from the big crown on the main road being entered.  Of course when you bounce, at the top of the bounce, you are a bit light in the rear end.  As I turned just after the bounce, the rear end slid a little sideways, the slide caused me to lean a bit farther over left, and scrubbed a floor board.  Let off the gas, got good purchase, straigtened up, and continued on.  I was not hot dogging thru the turn, but I don't baby roll through any turns either.

I thought, huh, car tire slipped a little.  Lots of sand.  I'm betting a bike tire would have slipped more.

As to Earl's story.  We all know that the painted parts of a road are slippery.  And wet painted parts of the road can be real slippery.  Goosing the throttle on wet painted parts in a lean can lead to unexpected excitement..... on any tire.

[DarkSideR]

On another website I read of a claimed accident caused by a cartire on a VTX, but the guy was hugely against car tires and couldn't see why he would have ever put one on his bike anyway. I think he fabricated the story.

For me I have a 100% confidence in my Car Tire. I practice high speed stops by getting up to 65 and trying to stop as quickly as possible. With the car tire on the back I can completely lock it up and it doesn't ever swing out. Then feathering the front break I know I can stop way faster than a Valk with a M/C tire on it. I enjoy the confidence of it when riding in the rain. I often scrap my pegs in the corners and never has the tire mis-behaved.

But it's not all about handling and confidence. It's also about being economical. I ride a lot and getting +25k out of a $100 tire only makes sense.

When it comes down to it only you can make the decision. But to get you started below are somethings to think about.

 - Shape: Go for a rounded shoulder tire. This is huge!
 - Size: Closest to stock is 205/60. But you can go with a 205/55 or a 205/65 (and I think the Austone is a 175/95!)
  + Why resize? Awe, I thought you would ask. I went with a 205/65 and at highway speeds I am 300 RPM's less. Fuel savings.. and I have stopped reaching for 6th gear.
 - Cost: There are documented cases of really cheap tires catastrophically failing. Don't go to cheap. Buy brand name respected tire.
 - Tread: Consensus says! Symmetrical Tread Pattern is the way to go (but this isn't an absolute)
 - What tires to consider: Good Question. Below is a list of popular tires being used to get you started;
  + Hankook Optimo H426 (the tire I am currently using and absolutely love)
  + Austone Taxi Tire (I would say is the favorite here in the VRCC)
  + And the list goes on, and on, and on.

Good Luck!  


See my color map below? All done DarkSiding!

[old2soon]

When you run into the rain-you know-you actually SEE the pavement becoming wet. That first bit of water that floats the oil and "stuff"-technical term-to the surface and creates a VERY slippery mess. My Phatt Ghurl came with E-3s!   I learned QUICKLY with "those" E-3s to find a safe place to park and wait a few to let the pavement get rinsed off for lack of a better term. My first D/S-General Altimax-while I slowed down a bit with the first drops I found I did NOT have to park and wait for the rinse. Yeah-it DID slip a little but not near nuff for my ass to chew holes in the seat!   Most if not All of us KNOW that feeling. When I finally wear out my current A T T There WILL be another to replace it if they are still available! Far as that right hand goes-it is a case of picking your spot and your time! I'm talkin THROTTLE here!   There are one or two character flaws with the A T T-but I'd rather have that on my Phatt Ghurl than any M/C specific rear tire I can think of. Thinkin I'm at or over 11000 miles on my A T T and she STILL be treatin me just fine. RIDE SAFE.

[PAVALKER]

When you run into the rain-you know-you actually SEE the pavement becoming wet. That first bit of water that floats the oil and "stuff"-technical term-to the surface and creates a VERY slippery mess. My Phatt Ghurl came with E-3s!   I learned QUICKLY with "those" E-3s to find a safe place to park and wait a few to let the pavement get rinsed off for lack of a better term. My first D/S-General Altimax-while I slowed down a bit with the first drops I found I did NOT have to park and wait for the rinse. Yeah-it DID slip a little but not near nuff for my ass to chew holes in the seat!   Most if not All of us KNOW that feeling. When I finally wear out my current A T T There WILL be another to replace it if they are still available! Far as that right hand goes-it is a case of picking your spot and your time! I'm talkin THROTTLE here!   There are one or two character flaws with the A T T-but I'd rather have that on my Phatt Ghurl than any M/C specific rear tire I can think of. Thinkin I'm at or over 11000 miles on my A T T and she STILL be treatin me just fine. RIDE SAFE.

What are these character flaws which you speak of?   I have the ATT and it is the closest to a bike tire that I have road or seen.  Im very happy with that tire.  Had a wider Hancook and it was def not for me, at any pressure.

[old2soon]

When they cut the grooves in the pavement and they run with the direction of travel and the grooves be wavy-at slow speeds it tends to wallow a LITTLE bit. NOTHING that would keep me from purchasing the A T T again. Tryin to rekemember another reason and I'm drawin a blank!  And you are correctamundo-in that the A T T is VERY much in the handling department of a M/C specific tire!  RIDE SAFE.

[Willow]

To answer the original questions, no, yes, and no.

As to accidents actually caused by a non-motorcycle intended tire that would not have happened on a motorcycle intended tire, we would have to experience the exact same conditions on each before we would know or even suspect to know.

[Patrick]

I've wondered about insurance coverage.

[big poppa pump]

I've wondered about insurance coverage.

No issues with insurance coverage. I still run the Vredestein Sportrac on my yellow tourer. When I t-boned the deer back in 2014, I was running the same tire. No griefs from my insurance company, the CT did not even make a single appearance in any form in any of the communications from them. The bike was totaled and I was paid my claim without any issues. This was with Esurance.

Even when I had a blowout yesterday and called my insurance company (Progressive) for tow service, not once did they ask me if I was running something else other than a MC tire on my rear. Bike was towed 80 miles from the scene to my home and the whole thing was covered by my policy.

[DarkSideR]

Big Poppa, I would give my left nut to have another Vredestein Sportrac.

Oh yeah, if you go Darkside you might want to adopt this saying when asked "is that a car tire on your bike?" Answer - well the tire was made for some sort of vehicle, but as you can plainly see it is now on the back of a motocycle. 

[havoc]

i've never heard of any cases...we simply aren't insured here in Alberta if we put on a car tire. It's a clause in our insurance coverage...

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

40 to 45 yards of ice... Two bikes down behind me ... I never broke traction and made it....My bike was the only one with a CT.... Car Tire ? Pissie ass luck ?

[Mr Whiskey]

I wasn't even on that ride but it's the reason I still run a 320 (or less) UTQG rating.
Need all the grip I can get

[PAVALKER]

i've never heard of any cases...we simply aren't insured here in Alberta if we put on a car tire. It's a clause in our insurance coverage...

Really?   How is that worded?  Can you take/post a photo of that clause? 

[Crackerborn]

I can not say the non-motorcycle specific tire is what saved me last spring, but having rear tires go south at highway speeds is never a good feeling. Posted speed limit of 55MPH (so maybe I was a few ticks above that) and sudden deflation of tire due to road debris somewhere in the Kettle Moraine (can we say twisties?) and a surprisingly uneventful coast to a stop after that initial Uh-Oh feeling.



The screwdriver is showing the problem, not the cause. That tire was replaced with another of the same kind. And even better, I didn't have to throw away any shorts.  

[Jess from VA]

Remind me not to ask you for any help with my gun shot wounds. 

(Wait, I'll get my screwdriver)   

[Crackerborn]

Naw, that calls for the hammer.

[fudgie]

Fellow Hoosier rider went down yrs ago. He said his CT caught a truck rut and he went down.

[Detn8er]

Fellow Hoosier rider went down yrs ago. He said his CT caught a truck rut and he went down.

[PAVALKER]

Fellow Hoosier rider went down yrs ago. He said his CT caught a truck rut and he went down.

I've had truck ruts push me around on a bike tire as well.   Those wider flatter tires might have some more push that an Austone...

[Medina]

Never ran a CT, but...four, five different brands of bike tires on 7-8 different bikes, they ALL will follow saw cuts and tar snakes, ALL are utter crap if you get on the edge of a road, all can go flat, all run like crap if they are under inflated, all run dangerous if your forks/triple tree/swing arm are in need of service. Water, mud, sand, cows and mattresses are bad news.
I can't see car tires magically making ONE back tire problems vanish, or increasing the likely hood I'll die running one, and nothing is capable of negating the ultimate..you have TWO wheels...

I'm sure this has been posted here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZKhoFbL7Fo

[gordonv]

1 mc rear tire blow up, riding 2 up. 50mph and acceleration, but made it off the road safely (almost with brown shorts).

1 accident with mc tires. Did not stop fast enough for the semi that crossed the road in front of me. IS written off.

Went to ATT, 3K miles, bike has now been sold, no problems encountered. Some really bad ruts moved me around, riding 2 up, but they where VERY bad ruts.

[_Sheffjs_]

i've never heard of any cases...we simply aren't insured here in Alberta if we put on a car tire. It's a clause in our insurance coverage...

Something tells me it won't be long and they will do that here.  





I had two interstates at the same time, one with att and the other with. 205 60 Michelin Primacy tire. The rpm of the ATT at speed was great but I am still the stupid one looking for 6th gear. I felt having two bikes gave me a good comparison and the only thing I came away with is I felt the Michelin handled ruts in the road better.  I got caught in the rain lately on my 1500 and the second the rain hit my mind remembers the CT is under there. All is well.  

[doubletee]

This was my first car tire on the Valk and it had pretty square edges (205/60-16). That bugger broke loose on the white line, giving me the old "oh crap" significant fishtail and I did everything wrong. I rolled off the gas AND pulled in the clutch. She stood straight back up and I was just along for the ride.

So, you say you did everything wrong. My instinct would be to do exactly as you did. At the risk of being perceived as stupid for not already knowing, what is the prescribed process for correcting that situation?

[Earl43P]

In a powered fishtail, as soon as you disengage the clutch, it regains traction. Instantly. At the crab angle and bank angle I was in, that resulted in an instant tank slapper when it stood upright, at a 40+ degree angle toward the right curb. Few have the physical strength to counter that in those milliseconds.

Had I known it was coming, like on a dirt bike where you DO THAT all the time, I'd have already had all that muscle tension applied to the bars. Instead, it basically high sided and flung me. Violently.

These are big heavy bikes. Nothing like muscling around a 250 in the mud. Quite unforgiving if you don't have a firm grasp and enough strength to counter those forces. At 165 lbs and caught unaware, I never had a chance.

Had I held some throttle, kept the clutch engaged muscled the bars and dragged the rear brake, I MIGHT have kept enough control to ride it up over that curb that I found myself pointed at.

Easier on the right wrist seems like the better plan going forward.