Seattle Police Begin Gun Confiscations

[Robert]

Seattle Police Begin Gun Confiscations: No Laws Broken, No Warrant, No Charges

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-06/seattle-police-begin-gun-confiscations-no-laws-broken-no-warrant-no-charges

A man in Seattle has had his gun confiscated by police after breaking no laws. The police took his gun without a warrant and without pressing any charges.  Tyranny has officially taken hold on American soil.

This sets a precedent that government can now forcefully take guns away from an individual without a crime being committed or an arrest being made and without a warrant. In the name of fear and political exploitation of anti-gun rhetoric, a citizen’s Second Amendment rights have been ripped away from him by the government.

The new “red flag” law, which has taken hold in other states already, allows the courts and law enforcement to take away guns from individuals they deem are dangerous and they’ve just begun the confiscation. A man living in the Belltown neighborhood of Seattle, Washington became the first individual in the state to have his firearm confiscated without any formal arrest or charges.  The man was not identified by authorities.

Neighbors complained that the man had been “staring” at people through storefront windows while wearing a holstered firearm. He was not brandishing his weapon by any account, and open carrying is legal in the area, so he was abiding by the law. Other residents also complained that the man’s open carrying made them feel “uncomfortable” and “unsafe.”

[..]

Drip, drip, drip

[NewValker]

Talk about a slippery slope....
How bout if my boss is being a dick, I know he has guns so I call the police and say I’m feeling unsafe because the boss has guns and he’s acting odd.
They knock on his door and take his guns. Think of the hassle I just caused him...
Craig

[MAD6Gun]

 I'm sure a few that will go unnamed on the board won't find a problem with this. But i do. Where is the due process? Guilty until proven innocent is not the American way. I am not a lawyer but I don't see this law standing up in court.

[..]

Talk about a slippery slope....
How bout if my boss is being a dick, I know he has guns so I call the police and say I’m feeling unsafe because the boss has guns and he’s acting odd.
They knock on his door and take his guns. Think of the hassle I just caused him...
Craig

Howabout they trawl web site forums and see who is a gun person and also see if they are being "aggressive" on the forum?

[Ken aka Oil Burner]

Sadly, our president has recently joined in on the take the guns first, due process second approach. Hope he comes to his senses soon. Turning your back on your core supporters seems like a poor idea to me.

[Serk]

[Hacked Valk]

I don't read bat crap insane rags like zero hedge but found the story on the Seattle times site.  Sounds like the police did a good job handling a badly escalating situation and an aggressively intimidating nut job with priors. Good for them not waiting until it was too late.  If you want to keep your guns you shouldn't walk around with them threatening people.  

[Raider]

quite a difference between that site and Seattle Times.

"The suspect, whose identity has not been released, had reportedly been drinking all day before he threw a flask at his former girlfriend, according to the blotter. The victim told police that they had just broken off their seven-year relationship and asked officers to take the suspect’s guns away. At some point that day, he threatened to shoot himself and “blow up the neighborhood.”"

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/seattle-police-confiscate-at-least-a-dozen-firearms-from-suspect-in-domestic-violence-case/

If this is the road we go down, we also need stiff penalties for people maliciously making false claims. There also needs to be a clear process on how to regain your firearms if they determine you are not a risk.  I'm guessing that neither of these provisions are present.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Seattle Police Begin Gun Confiscations: No Laws Broken, No Warrant, No Charges

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-06/seattle-police-begin-gun-confiscations-no-laws-broken-no-warrant-no-charges

A man in Seattle has had his gun confiscated by police after breaking no laws. The police took his gun without a warrant and without pressing any charges.  Tyranny has officially taken hold on American soil.

This sets a precedent that government can now forcefully take guns away from an individual without a crime being committed or an arrest being made and without a warrant. In the name of fear and political exploitation of anti-gun rhetoric, a citizen’s Second Amendment rights have been ripped away from him by the government.

The new “red flag” law, which has taken hold in other states already, allows the courts and law enforcement to take away guns from individuals they deem are dangerous and they’ve just begun the confiscation. A man living in the Belltown neighborhood of Seattle, Washington became the first individual in the state to have his firearm confiscated without any formal arrest or charges.  The man was not identified by authorities.

Neighbors complained that the man had been “staring” at people through storefront windows while wearing a holstered firearm. He was not brandishing his weapon by any account, and open carrying is legal in the area, so he was abiding by the law. Other residents also complained that the man’s open carrying made them feel “uncomfortable” and “unsafe.”

Your story is wrong on a few counts. The police went to the courts for an "extreme protection order" , it was granted. He did not comply with the order. Then a warrant was granted to confiscate his weapons. Had this guy with mental issues shot someone, you would likely be blaming the police for not doing anything after people had reported his behavior.

[Davemn]

Don’t you guys think about anything but protecting your guns?
Your guns are fine.

[Gavin_Sons]

Don’t you guys think about anything but protecting your guns?
Your guns are fine.

  I know, one is safe and sound on my side while the rest are safely pit away in the safe. Sounds like this nut job really deserved to have his taken away. I really wish some would get all the information before posting ludicrous stories.

[Jess from VA]

It seems there is some judicial review before police action.  “Extreme Risk Protection Order”  Because of the new law, police were then able to return with a warrant and force the man to surrender the firearm.

They say five states:  California, Washington, Oregon, Indiana, and Connecticut have passed the law, and Texas has a similar modification.

http://komonews.com/news/nation-world/seizing-guns-before-someone-can-commit-violence-texas-modification

I can't find good details.  What we cannot have is a law that can be triggered by someone who just doesn't like you, or has a grudge or a payback mentality.  This appears to be an ex parte deal where they can get a judge's order, without giving the man a right to speak for himself (with or without counsel).  There better be a short window before he is given a chance to speak for himself.  

This guy seems to have warranted scrutiny beyond.... he was looking at people funny.

More:  http://www.guns.com/2016/11/11/washington-gun-confiscation-ballot-measure-wins-in-landslide/  

... will allow a family member to file a petition with the court for a judge to decide if a subject poses a threat to themselves or others. This could lead to an order prohibiting firearms possession for up to one year, and could be renewed annually. The subject of the order can request a hearing once a year to rescind the order while those filing false petitions would set themselves up for a criminal penalty.

IMHO, 5th Amend due process requires an ex parte order to be immediately followed by a hearing with the accused being heard (with right to counsel and a right to submit evidence).  Not just giving him a right to request a hearing sometime during his one year of confiscation.

[Oss]

Wowee

TRO relief  (Temporary restraining Order) means VERY short return date here in NY

Person asking for Preliminary Injunction can be forced (well I force them) to submit a Bond (a big Bond which goes to the injured party- in this case the citizen who lost his right to carry) that alone usually leads to dismissal of the case.

I think it is a good thing that there is a formula or method for a person to be able to say something and let the court judiciary see if it merits further scrutiny.   I worry that it may become like the grand jury system where a District Attorney could literally indict a ham sandwich and that a person can only assert their defense once a year is frankly....bullfeathers

Hope we learn the true facts as quickly as the police took the right of the citizen away but am not holding my breath

[ptgb]

Just once, I would like to see you keyboard Constitutionalists actually deal with these types of people on a daily basis (yep, DAILY basis) like I do... yesterday one pointed a shotgun at a guy who thought they were going to settle something with their fists, today it was a revolver brought out over a stupid little custody dispute involving a grandmother taking pictures of the pigsty where her 3 year old grandson is being raised (from the street, perfectly legal). It would change a lot of tunes real quick.

They get all gussied up for their court appearance and look like the upstanding citizen they aren't.

cursed if you, cursed if you don't.... second guessed and vilified for doing your best to keep certified assholes from pulling guns on people.

Yeah, yeah.... I signed up .... shame on me.

[Flame suit donned]

[The emperor has no clothes]

Just once, I would like to see you keyboard Constitutionalists actually deal with these types of people on a daily basis (yep, DAILY basis) like I do... yesterday one pointed a shotgun at a guy who thought they were going to settle something with their fists, today it was a revolver brought out over a stupid little custody dispute involving a grandmother taking pictures of the pigsty where her 3 year old grandson is being raised (from the street, perfectly legal). It would change a lot of tunes real quick.

They get all gussied up for their court appearance and look like the upstanding citizen they aren't.

cursed if you, cursed if you don't.... second guessed and vilified for doing your best to keep certified assholes from pulling guns on people.

Yeah, yeah.... I signed up .... shame on me.

[Flame suit donned]

no flames here. Be safe 

[Jess from VA]

I feel for you and appreciate your service Pete (and every other man and woman who serves).

The urban insanity seems to forever spiral out of control.  It's everywhere (just less of it with less people away from the cities).

I think the police should every lawful tool in the book (and some that aren't in the book).

If people use, point, brandish, threaten with firearms unlawfully, they should be arrested, and the firearm taken for evidence.  The mentally unbalanced should not have firearms.

But unlike the examples you cited, I just don't want a law that allows my angry neighbor (or family member) to make a phone call, and after a short, five minute, entirely one-sided courtroom discussion, to result in the police coming to my house and saying they have paperwork that says they can take my firearms (and it's the first I ever heard of it).  And unlike in your examples, I have broken no law, threatened no one, and not even looked at anyone sideways.  That is what I am worried about.  And then I have one chance in a year to get a full and fair hearing?

I do thank you for your service.  How much longer do you have to go? 

   

[Robert]

cursed if you, cursed if you don't.... second guessed and vilified for doing your best to keep certified assholes from pulling guns on people.

Yeah, yeah.... I signed up .... shame on me.

[Flame suit donned]

So job security is not a consideration here, 

All kidding aside so what is different with any crime committed when people get to court? Also they are dealt with by a legal authority either court or Police and can have their right to own taken away. Plus what portion of these actually result in a death or shooting rather than just stupid posturing.

Is this enough to take away a second amendment right just because of a few cant handle life correctly? I ride everyday and see 75 percent on cell phones and yet never see anyone arrested or stopped while texting yet that has claimed more lives than these type of incidents.

One friend works downtown and gets all the drunks and disputes from being drunk and stupid, its a pain yet we dont cut off the alcohol issue also. He thinks we should limit downtown and clean this area up also, so what really comes with the job?

I dont say this with disrespect but maybe your in the wrong line of work. Unfortunately you know it comes with the job and there's nothing more frustrating than the jerk you saw on one day comes in looking like a saint on the time of appearance. I have seen it to many times in all types of cases. Even Al Capone came in looking like a saint so its part of the territory. But if we limit a right, then we might as well live in Russia or any country that freedom for its citizens is not even considered. Also what rights do we limit, texting, driving, drinking,owning a house if we are free then we need to exercise caution in our limits.

The balance here is once you make a law you are up against a government with almost unlimited power and the individual citizen cannot afford the time nor expense to combat a wrong law.


In other posts,

We have passed gun laws and had justification of them because of a shooting that followed all the laws and it was the Police and FBI that dropped the ball. It could have been averted if they had just followed up on the rules set in place like see and say and done their job. Also another thing, I see many crying out for new laws but what about the heads rolling in the streets for non performance of their jobs?

I have yet to see anyone loose their job, position, or find the reason for the breakdown in these jobs. Now that is wrong just as wrong as knowing your dealing with a life and death situation and say OH WELL Im not going to do anything let them kill each other. Maybe if job performance was better we would have less of these type of disasters.

IF there job was done would 17 people be dead today, would we be seeing new gun laws? Maybe we should start prosecuting those who dont do their jobs as a accomplices to the crime itself, I bet that would get job performance up. Sound crazy, not really, we have the Rico statute that anyone with knowledge of a criminal conspiracy is just as complicit in the crime so why not?

[The emperor has no clothes]

cursed if you, cursed if you don't.... second guessed and vilified for doing your best to keep certified assholes from pulling guns on people.

Yeah, yeah.... I signed up .... shame on me.

[Flame suit donned]

So job security is not a consideration here, 

All kidding aside so what is different with any crime committed when people get to court? Also they are dealt with by a legal authority either court or Police and can have their right to own taken away. Plus what portion of these actually result in a death or shooting rather than just stupid posturing.

Is this enough to take away a second amendment right just because of a few cant handle life correctly? I ride everyday and see 75 percent on cell phones and yet never see anyone arrested or stopped while texting yet that has claimed more lives than these type of incidents.

One friend works downtown and gets all the drunks and disputes from being drunk and stupid, its a pain yet we dont cut off the alcohol issue also. He thinks we should limit downtown and clean this area up also, so what really comes with the job?

I dont say this with disrespect but maybe your in the wrong line of work. Unfortunately you know it comes with the job and there's nothing more frustrating than the jerk you saw on one day comes in looking like a saint on the time of appearance. I have seen it to many times in all types of cases. Even Al Capone came in looking like a saint so its part of the territory. But if we limit a right, then we might as well live in Russia or any country that freedom for its citizens is not even considered. Also what rights do we limit, texting, driving, drinking,owning a house if we are free then we need to exercise caution in our limits.

The balance here is once you make a law you are up against a government with almost unlimited power and the individual citizen cannot afford the time nor expense to combat a wrong law.


In other posts,

We have passed gun laws and had justification of them because of a shooting that followed all the laws and it was the Police and FBI that dropped the ball. It could have been averted if they had just followed up on the rules set in place like see and say and done their job. Also another thing, I see many crying out for new laws but what about the heads rolling in the streets for non performance of their jobs?

I have yet to see anyone loose their job, position, or find the reason for the breakdown in these jobs. Now that is wrong just as wrong as knowing your dealing with a life and death situation and say OH WELL Im not going to do anything let them kill each other. Maybe if job performance was better we would have less of these type of disasters.

IF there job was done would 17 people be dead today, would we be seeing new gun laws? Maybe we should start prosecuting those who dont do their jobs as a accomplices to the crime itself, I bet that would get job performance up. Sound crazy, not really, we have the Rico statute that anyone with knowledge of a criminal conspiracy is just as complicit in the crime so why not?

ptgb’s relating his “real world” circumstances just seems to be glossed over by you. Along with your story had many inaccuracies to begin with. 

[Serk]

[Flame suit donned]

No flame. I honor and respect you and your comrades for the tough position you're in, and thank you for doing what you do.

But I'm also thankful that I live in a country that puts strict limits on what the state (And by extension, it's officers) can do as well. I know that leaves you feeling constrained by silly rules and laws some times, but I'm thankful they're there.

I have similar frustrations in my own job, where I have to deal with mountains of paperwork to make a simple change to a computer, I could do my job far more efficiently if I were just cut loose and allowed to do what I know needs to be done, but I spend 10 times more time justifying my actions than I do actually taking the actions.

And I also appreciate that in my situation if I screw up, I have to attend a meeting explaining the screw up and promising to do better next time.

If you screw up you could get yourself, a comrade, or a citizen killed.

I really do respect that, and I don't envy you that, but I still don't want to see the state cut loose to run amok without strict laws and judicial safeguards in place.

[Robert]

ptgb’s relating his “real world” circumstances just seems to be glossed over by you. Along with your story had many inaccuracies to begin with. 

Sorry you cant relate try another post, and if you want explain the inaccuracies.

[The emperor has no clothes]

ptgb’s relating his “real world” circumstances just seems to be glossed over by you. Along with your story had many inaccuracies to begin with. 

Sorry you cant relate try another post, and if you want explain the inaccuracies.

I already did.

[Robert]

ptgb’s relating his “real world” circumstances just seems to be glossed over by you. Along with your story had many inaccuracies to begin with. 

Sorry you cant relate try another post, and if you want explain the inaccuracies.

I already did.

Good, I guess there are no inaccuracies either. Also please keep the conversation civil so the thread doesn't get locked like it usually does with you.

[The emperor has no clothes]

ptgb’s relating his “real world” circumstances just seems to be glossed over by you. Along with your story had many inaccuracies to begin with.  

Sorry you cant relate try another post, and if you want explain the inaccuracies.

I already did.

Good, I guess there are no inaccuracies either. Also please keep the conversation civil so the thread doesn't get locked like it usually does with you.

Your story was wrong on a few accounts. Why keep denying it ? Just go back and make the story accurate.

[Robert]

Your story was wrong on a few accounts. Why keep denying it ? Just go back and make the story accurate.

I think its fine the way it sits, you think there are inaccuracies so you need to point them out.

BTW  have you seen how good Trump is doing, still dislike him that much?

[Robert]

NAACP Urges National Gun Confiscation

http://dailycaller.com/2018/03/06/naacp-gun-confiscation/

NAACP President and CEO Derrick Johnson called for a national gun confiscation program in a syndicated column through Black Press USA on Monday.

[Serk]

NAACP Urges National Gun Confiscation

http://dailycaller.com/2018/03/06/naacp-gun-confiscation/

NAACP President and CEO Derrick Johnson called for a national gun confiscation program in a syndicated column through Black Press USA on Monday.

Kinda ironic, the KKK and the NAACP agree on something. Some of the first gun control laws in this country were backed by the KKK, set up to disarm black people so they couldn't resist the KKK.

[Hooter]

Just once, I would like to see you keyboard Constitutionalists actually deal with these types of people on a daily basis (yep, DAILY basis) like I do... yesterday one pointed a shotgun at a guy who thought they were going to settle something with their fists, today it was a revolver brought out over a stupid little custody dispute involving a grandmother taking pictures of the pigsty where her 3 year old grandson is being raised (from the street, perfectly legal). It would change a lot of tunes real quick.

They get all gussied up for their court appearance and look like the upstanding citizen they aren't.

cursed if you, cursed if you don't.... second guessed and vilified for doing your best to keep certified assholes from pulling guns on people.

Yeah, yeah.... I signed up .... shame on me.

[Flame suit donned]

                I did daily for 28 years. I know exactly what you are talking about. Very well said! Stay safe!

[3fan4life]

NAACP Urges National Gun Confiscation

http://dailycaller.com/2018/03/06/naacp-gun-confiscation/

NAACP President and CEO Derrick Johnson called for a national gun confiscation program in a syndicated column through Black Press USA on Monday.

It really shouldn't be a surprise that they would favor gun confiscation over actually punishing people that use guns to commit crimes.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Your story was wrong on a few accounts. Why keep denying it ? Just go back and make the story accurate.

I think its fine the way it sits, you think there are inaccuracies so you need to point them out.

BTW  have you seen how good Trump is doing, still dislike him that much?

Never Mind ! Every word was completely accurate. No courts, no warrants, no mental issues

[Serk]

BTW  have you seen how good Trump is doing, still dislike him that much?

His successes just make them hate him more.

[The emperor has no clothes]

BTW  have you seen how good Trump is doing, still dislike him that much?

His successes just make them hate him more.

I’m not sure how Trump fits into a story about the Seattle police. But no, I don’t hate him.

[Serk]

I’m not sure how Trump fits into a story about the Seattle police. But no, I don’t hate him.

That Trump is in favor of stripping citizens of their rights and property without following due process maybe? 

[Robert]

Gun related deaths have suicides more than 2 to 1 over homicides. The numbers also dont include the ones that shoot in self defense either, so any number given by the left is considerably less.

[Serk]

Here's my compromise: (This is copypasta)

Arm teachers in schools. Mandate training for them. At our expense of course.

in exchange, I'll give you the following:

1. No more gun show loophole. Dealers will now have to do background checks before selling a gun at a gun show.

2. No more easy to get fully automatic assault weapons.They will have to be registered, buyers will require fingerprinting and photo ID and a background check and pay a $200 tax on EACH one. We'll allow an amnesty to register all the ones that are out there, and repeal the Hughes Amendment that prohibited registration of fully automatic assault weapons.

3. No more high powered assault weapons. Any gun producing a muzzle energy in excess of 50,000 ft-lbs must be registered just like a machine gun.

4. No more felons with guns. Effective immediately, felons can't own guns.

5. No more crazies with guns. Effective immediately, if you've been adjudicated mentally incompetent, you can't own a gun either.

6. No more criminal vets with guns. If you've been dishonorably discharged, no gun for you.

7. No more druggies with guns. If you use illegal drugs, no gun for you.

That's a huge concession and I just want teachers to protect our innocent kids.

[Robert]

This should shake someone up but we heard nothing about it.

Teen drawn to ISIS brought homemade bomb to Utah school, police say

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/teen-drawn-isis-brought-homemade-bomb-utah-school-police-say-n854351

[Raider]

 

Here's my compromise: (This is copypasta)

Arm teachers in schools. Mandate training for them. At our expense of course.

in exchange, I'll give you the following:

1. No more gun show loophole. Dealers will now have to do background checks before selling a gun at a gun show.

2. No more easy to get fully automatic assault weapons.They will have to be registered, buyers will require fingerprinting and photo ID and a background check and pay a $200 tax on EACH one. We'll allow an amnesty to register all the ones that are out there, and repeal the Hughes Amendment that prohibited registration of fully automatic assault weapons.

3. No more high powered assault weapons. Any gun producing a muzzle energy in excess of 50,000 ft-lbs must be registered just like a machine gun.

4. No more felons with guns. Effective immediately, felons can't own guns.

5. No more crazies with guns. Effective immediately, if you've been adjudicated mentally incompetent, you can't own a gun either.

6. No more criminal vets with guns. If you've been dishonorably discharged, no gun for you.

7. No more druggies with guns. If you use illegal drugs, no gun for you.

That's a huge concession and I just want teachers to protect our innocent kids.

[Gryphon Rider]

Your story was wrong on a few accounts. Why keep denying it ? Just go back and make the story accurate.

I think its fine the way it sits, you think there are inaccuracies so you need to point them out.

BTW  have you seen how good Trump is doing, still dislike him that much?

Never Mind ! Every word was completely accurate. No courts, no warrants, no mental issues

Not to mention the disingenuous subject heading.  I've found pointing out Robert's "inaccuracies" to him is a pointless exercise, as he never admits to being wrong.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Your story was wrong on a few accounts. Why keep denying it ? Just go back and make the story accurate.

I think its fine the way it sits, you think there are inaccuracies so you need to point them out.

BTW  have you seen how good Trump is doing, still dislike him that much?

Never Mind ! Every word was completely accurate. No courts, no warrants, no mental issues

Not to mention the disingenuous subject heading.  I've found pointing out Robert's "inaccuracies" to him is a pointless exercise, as he never admits to being wrong.

I've found the same. Shame on me for thinking it would be different.

[scooperhsd]

The "guns" are not the problem.  It's kids bullying/ignoring other kids. Best solution to this - have your kids reach out to these "oddball" kids so they don't feel alone / friendless.

If you really want to do something effective in schools - REPLACE all classroom doors with extremely bullet-resistant ones (nothing is bullet proof).

Forcing teachers to carry when they don't want to and aren't trained for it and don't have the mindset to actually use them is like throwing an untrained soldier / LEO into a firefight - a good way to get them killed. If you ARE going to allow teachers to carry into the classroom - they should be required to take some rigourous training on the proper use of the weapons and related laws. Not saying they need to be trained like a LEO - but they should at least be trained enough to know what they are getting into.