Self Defence Is Allowed In Oklahoma

[Jim_Orr]

This 911 call came from a rural area of Linclon County, OK.  This is the complete and unedited audio of the call.  The fear and dread of what the lady is going through is so thick you can cut it with a knife.  The DA has said there was no crime commited by this lady.

http://www.newsok.com/law-allows-fatal-shot-lincoln-county-official-says/article/3423575?custom_click=lead_story_photo

[Jack]

There are some states that allow you to shoot someone trying to enter your car as well.  Self-defence is self-defence.

[Popeye]

Good for her.  Guy got what he deserved.

[FLAVALK]

In Florida you can shoot anyone that you fear is about to cause bodily harm to yourself or others.

If I'm in a store and a bad guy walks in and pulls a gun on the clerk...I can legally shoot him

[clsimmonsjr]

I dont see as how she had any choice,

[PAVALKER]

When "seconds" count, Police are only "minutes" away......    

A loaded shotgun within quick reach is a great alternative to local law enforcement down the road.....



Sheesh,.... a 20 min response time.  WTF   

[Big Rig]

God Bless her....

Definately teaching the Mrs. about the shot gun.

I am not that rural...but 20 minute response time?

[sugerbear]

20 min isn't bad. if it was county responding, coulda been on the other side of the county.  some counties probably only have 2-3 cars working.

rural OK is a very big place.

[bsnicely]

That is a classic " Castle Doctrine " case. A couple weeks after this became law in WV a man, down on his luck and living in his car shot a man who was trying to break in on him with a hammer. He stood on the castle Doctrine because at the time his car was his home.  He prevailed in a jury trial. 

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

1st things I was thinking is that's a lloonngg response time, but I quess it was extremely rural.

[Stanley Steamer]

It's a real shame that she had to protect herself from that drunk fool..., but I'm glad she had the nerve to protect herself and I doubt she'll ever forget that day....better him than her.....he had plenty of chances to just walk away.....

[Chrisj CMA]

The guy probably thought it was his house, thought his wife locked him out........might have even thought WOW, shes really pissed when he saw the shotgun.....oh well, too bad for him....she did right!

[X Ring]

The guy probably thought it was his house, thought his wife locked him out........might have even thought WOW, shes really pissed when he saw the shotgun.....oh well, too bad for him....she did right!

With the guy having to climb the fence and fight off the dogs, i doubt very seriously the suspect thought it was his house.  As Brian said, this is a classic example of Castle Doctrine.  In Mississippi, the Justifiable Homicide Statute allows you to use Lethal Force to protect yourself or someone else from death, felonious assault or any felony commited against yourself or another person.

Also, the dispatcher told her a deputy was enroute along with an officer from Stroud.  This tells me it's a very rural poor county that has a small sheriff's department and the local municipalities back up the s.o. and vice versa.  This doesn't happen just in the south and west.  I've heard similar stories from officers in the midwest and northeast. 

Marty

[Jess from VA]

As careful, reluctant and 'lawful' as this woman was, she had absolutely the right mind set for the situation....."I'm not locking myself in a little bathroom"  was good judgment.  Whether you have the tool and skills to act,  the mind set and will to act in your defense is essential.  Many would not or could not.  Good job mom!!  Unfortunately she (sounds like) will likely suffer for some time from this event.

Lessons learned:  

When talking and being taped by 911, be careful what you say (you may hear it again at your trial).  She says "if he comes in here, I'm going to KILL him"  several times.  No..... say that you are going to SHOOT him, or protect yourself.  She  knows the 28" bbl shotgun she has will likely kill him with a center mass shot, but you don't announce an intent to kill, you say you will protect yourself.  

Notice dispatch is trained to keep you on the line at all times.  The hell with that!  You only have two hands, and may need both for other things.  After making the report and giving your info, you take control of the call, it's your nickle.  "No, I have stuff to do, I'm setting the phone down now, hang on I'll be back."

Under extreme stress, fall back on training.  She was praying to God for strength as sincerely as I've ever heard it.  She didn't even have to think about how to flip the safety, aim and shoot (with one in the chamber).  That's not always the case.

Get mom a better gun!!  She calls the shotgun a monster, so it's not a 18" riot barrel, but some long Wingmaster (which she was holding and carrying around in the house while being kept on the phone).  Mom needs her own gun!!!  (my 80yo mom has a permitted Ladysmith 3"bbl)

The dog barked (woke her up too which may have been key), but that was it.   Most places with barking dogs are passed...... except by the deranged.  

She told them the doors were flimsy, and you could hear them rattling.  Get better doors and locks for mom.


  

 

[bsnicely]

Hey Jess, I agree 100% with your analysis.  Do we shoot to kill?     NO!    We shoot to stop the threat! After the threat has ended we may no longer continue to fire. Maybe he is dead and maybe not but he is no longer a threat if he is on the ground. I know a local police officer locally, he gives 50% of everything he will ever earn to some dirtbag who was trying to run him down. He was firing at the driver as he was bearing down on him, he rolled off and up on a knee as he passed and fired into the back window of the car, injuring his spine. The court found that the officer was wrong to fire after the vehicle passed as the threat was over. Never answer that you were trying to kill him, I will shoot him to stop him is the correct answer. I know she was scared and distraught but she should not have been saying she was sorry, I regret HE put me in the situation where I had to shoot him in self defense.

[Jess from VA]

I think she was saying she was sorry to God for taking a life while praying for strength, not to the perp. 

In any event, listing to this tape, she is home free.  Any decent  jury in a scumbag wrongful death suit would find no liability either. 

The thing to remember is she was a mom.  If it was you or me sounding confident on the phone it's a different ballgame.  If it was me, I believe I would have walked right up to the glass door he was breaking into, with the shotgun shouldered and pointed at his head and simply yelled......"What?"  and gone from there.  If he kept coming, I wouldn't shoot till he was all the way inside.  And I could choose a center mass or legs/knees shot (if no visible weapon) with a shotgun at 10 feet.   And I probably wouldn't be calling 911 till I had things under control one way or the other. 

[bsnicely]

I think she did a really good job of creating witneses and a record of her perceived threat. All that is required is that a " reasonable person " believes they are in danger. She surely did that. Any jury would be able to hear her reluctance to shoot but also her determination to protect herself. I understand her sorry statement was probably prayer and sincere, I was more alluding to answering questions from a prosecuter or a plantiff's atty. I would never say I was sorry in answer to a question in court, I would fear that a jury or judge would think I was admitting to wrong doing. I would do my best to place all blame on the intruder, he forced me to act, it was his choice to attack me. All in all I think she did a good job......

[3fan4life]

According to what I saw on the News this AM, NO Charges will be filed against her.

She did the absolute correct thing, she protected herself from harm.

No-one will ever know what his intent was, but I'm betting that he wasn't there to wish her a Merry Christmas.

She did sound very distraught about what she'd been forced to do, I feel for her and pray that she will realize that she had no other choice.


What did get my Goat this AM was how the national news people kept insinuating that people shouldn't have the right to shoot an intruder.

They mentioned Castle Doctrine and that she was within the law but they clearly didn't agree with the law.

They even went so far as to mention that in some states a person must flee from an attacker before thaey have a right to defend themselves.

If I find out what states they are I'll be sure to never visit them.

[Stanley Steamer]

According to what I saw on the News this AM, NO Charges will be filed against her.

She did the absolute correct thing, she protected herself from harm.

No-one will ever know what his intent was, but I'm betting that he wasn't there to wish her a Merry Christmas.

She did sound very distraught about what she'd been forced to do, I feel for her and pray that she will realize that she had no other choice.


What did get my Goat this AM was how the national news people kept insinuating that people shouldn't have the right to shoot an intruder.

They mentioned Castle Doctrine and that she was within the law but they clearly didn't agree with the law.

They even went so far as to mention that in some states a person must flee from an attacker before thaey have a right to defend themselves.

If I find out what states they are I'll be sure to never visit them.

I'll have to go back and look and see when this happened, but I sure never saw that story on any of the major news networks!!??.....maybe I missed it, but some folks amaze me....I wouldn't find any joy in having to do what she did either, but I would protect myself or my Wife from someone in that same situation.....I recently got a stun gun for my Mom and a niece at my Mom's request...she is getting hers for Christmas.....I asked my Wife is she wanted me to get her one and if she'd use it and she told me she'd rather have jewelry.... ..

[stormrider]

Anita and I listened to the entire audio. She will be getting more firearms training soon. Two months ago I was away doing some volunteer cleanup work from the flooding in GA. We had two breakin's in the neighborhood less than a mile from the house. I've procratenated about getting her out in the pasture for some lead slinging lessons.
 
We both had tears from listening to Mrs. Jackson and how distraught she was. It's a shame some pos put her in that position and caused her to defend herself which will be something that will remain with her the rest of her life. May God give her peace over this matter. And like she said, she had elderly neighbors that if he would have called on them he may have caused harm to one of them.

[PAVALKER]

I agree.... may God bless Mrs Jackson and help her get through this.

A shotgun can not be beat for in home security IMO.  As evidenced by the stress she was under, it is definitely the most effective "point and click" device out there, no skillful aiming required and you can do it from the hip if need be.  Just get it fairly close and it should work.   

[Hoser]

"I'll have to go back and look and see when this happened, but I sure never saw that story on any of the major news networks!!??.....maybe I missed it, but some folks amaze me....I wouldn't find any joy in having to do what she did either, but I would protect myself or my Wife from someone in that same situation.....I recently got a stun gun for my Mom and a niece at my Mom's request...she is getting hers for Christmas.....I asked my Wife is she wanted me to get her one and if she'd use it and she told me she'd rather have jewelry"

If I asked my wife if she wanted a stun gun, she would probly say, why, I've got the 12 guage and my 38, and two dogs!    hoser

[Jess from VA]

This is much better than a stun gun IMHO.  You don't have to actually close to arms length with the perp to use it, and if you and a perp are holding on to each other, hitting him with a stun gun will route the electrical current back to your own body and leave you helpless.

http://www.officerstore.com/store/product.cfm/pid_6167_kimber_pepper_blaster_non_lethal_oc_spray_device/

http://www.cabelas.com/p-0044111228579a.shtml

Guardian Angel	powered by Aeva

[PharmBoy]

Nothing will take the place of a shotgun for home defense, especially in the hands of a practically untrained, scared potential victim.  I feel no remorse for anyone breaking into someone's home who will not heed a warning.  Alcohol and drug use are no excuse.  Anyone who looses their sense or right and wrong through the use of these substances certainly deserves anything that happens to them in the commission of a crime.  I am sure that there are those who will disagree, but I believe that there should never be but one side of the event ever told and that is my side...JTL

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

Nothing will take the place of a shotgun for home defense, especially in the hands of a practically untrained, scared potential victim.  I feel no remorse for anyone breaking into someone's home who will not heed a warning.  Alcohol and drug use are no excuse.   Anyone who looses their sense or right and wrong through the use of these substances certainly deserves anything that happens to them in the commission of a crime.  I am sure that there are those who will disagree, but I believe that there should never be but one side of the event ever told and that is my side...JTL

I agree. When he chose to inbibe to the point that he didn't know what he was doing (if that was the case) he has to accept the consequences. Why should some innocent person have to be in fear because his actions and choices affect them.

[Willow]

You guys are a really tough crowd.  Remind me to have you all excluded from any jury that may have reason to try me.

I join most of you in my belief that the potential victim, did what she felt she needed to do and that she was legally and morally entitled to do so.

I'm not so quick with the "POS" and "got what he deserved" assessments.  He may have, but we have absolutely no information on his side of what was going on.  I went back and read the story to see what details I may have missed.  The only thing we know is that his sister was passed out in a stuck car and that he'd been previously guilty of alcohol and marijuana offenses.  We do know that he illegally broke into someone else's home.

Based on what information we were given we don't know that he was a drunken fool or what was his state of mind or intent.

You may all be correct in your speculative assessments, but I would have left it at, "She was entitled to a defense of her home and violated no law in the process of doing so."

As to the "POS got what he deserved", I sincerely hope that we never get to the point of all getting what we deserve.  I'm sure I don't want to compaign for my just desert.

It's just a thought, but it may help add some humanity to our judgements to remember that the sobbing, sorrowful, and frightened woman at the end of the story was someone's mother and once was someone's innocent little girl.  The lifeless form stretched onto the patio was someone's brother, maybe someone's father, and was once sombody's innocent little boy.

I, for one, even if only one, am truly sorry that the situation turned out as it did, both for the living and for the dead.  I'm sorry for the grief and turmoil that will spread like ripples on a pond in every direction from this most unfortunate incident.   

[PharmBoy]

Willow, I have been there and done that.  Spent 1968 with the 4th Inf. Div. in the Central Highlands of Vietnam, mostly over next to Cambodia.  I know first hand what it is like to fight for my life.  When push comes to shove, you can bet your left nut that I don't give a crap about anybody but me and those with me and  whether or not we are going to survive.  It is really simple when you get there, and there are no regrets.  Think what you will, but somehow I made it back to marry a wonderful woman, raise two boys who are "the apple of my eye" and have spent most of my life trying to help my fellow citizens with my chosen profession...JTL (no smiley face needed)

[HayHauler]

Well said Willow.  
But what if it was YOUR wife, daughter, or mother that was left alone to defend themselves, what would you have them to do?  Wait until he breaks in and ask him if he would like to have a cup of coffee?  I think not.  
We don't know what his intentiions were and at this point we will never know.  
The lady who shot the man breaking into her house sounded soooo much like my mother.
I DO however agree, I am sorry that it turned out the way it did for both of them.

P.S.  I pray that I am never put into that situation.

Hay  
Jimmyt

[Willow]

But what if it was YOUR wife, daughter, or mother that was left alone to defend themselves, what would you have them to do?  Wait until he breaks in and ask him if he would like to have a cup of coffee?  I think not.

Please, Jimmy (and JTL) read more carefully. 

I do not take issue with what Mrs. Jackson did nor would I necessarily have advised her to do otherwise.

My point was that some of us seem to have rushed to judgement on the value ("POS") and intent of the burglar.  My point is that we really don't have the information needed to draw the conclusions to which some of us have arrived.

It doesn't mean the conclusions are wrong.  It just means those conclusions are either premature or clairvoyant.

  (smiley intended.)

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

I don't feel the need to judge the individual and name call him, but as far as intent goes, please. NO good intent comes from banging on a door, yelling or taking a table and busting my way in. 

[HayHauler]

Amen.

Hay
Jimmyt

[Willow]

NO good intent comes from banging on a door, yelling or taking a table and busting my way in.  

I looked at the area from which the call came.  There are no  more than a half dozen residences within a mile of Mrs. Jackson's home.   Likely hers was the only one visible from the road.

Here's a possibility.  I'm not saying this is what happened, and I'm not saying that if it did it would make the burglar's actions acceptable.  I'm just saying there may be possibilities other than robbery, murder, and mayhem regarding his intent.

Riley discovered that his sister had overdosed on drugs and alcohol, was unconscious and unresponsive.  He drags her to his vehicle and takes off for the hospital.  Unfortunately he's in no condition to drive her to the hospital.  He fails to navigate the rural Oklahoma roads and manages to get the vehicle stuck in the mud.  After what seems to be a long time desperately trying unsuccessfully to free the vehicle, he gets out and looks around and notices one house within a quarter mile.  In his limited mental state he can only think that only if he can get to the house and they call for an ambulance his sister will live.  He runs to the house, combats the dog and pounds on the door.  No one answers.  He circles the house thinking maybe they're closer to the back.  He pounds on the door and hollers that Pat is going to die.  No one answers.  He paces.  He walks around the house again.  Finally he decides maybe no one is home and his only chance to save the life of his sister is to break into the house and use the phone to call for help.  He breaks out the patio door and surely enough his efforts result in the saving of his sister's life.

Whether that's the way it happened or not we'll not know.  The initial news story doesn't have the details we would need to know intent and motivation of the dead man.  Have you noticed that we seldom get follow up news stories in which they fill in the pieces that were missing from the first shocking release?

Whether the burglar was desperately trying to save his sister's life, or just intent on doing some drunken mayhem, the important item for Mrs. Jackson is that she sincerely thought her life was in danger.  She did what she knew to do to protect herself.  The burglar's intentions don't enter into whether Mrs. Jackson's choice was justified, but they should play a role in our deciding whether he was in fact a POS who deserved to die or just a stupidly frantic man who died because he made some really bad choices.

I wasn't there.      

[Serk]

As I think Willow's trying to say, there's a difference between acknowledging the righteousness of a situation, and celebrating the outcome of a situation...

(Not trying to put words in your mouth, of course...)

[Willow]

As I think Willow's trying to say, ...

Thank you, Serk.  I guess I could've used a lot fewer words.    

[JimL]

NO good intent comes from banging on a door, yelling or taking a table and busting my way in.  

I looked at the area from which the call came.  There are no  more than a half dozen residences within a mile of Mrs. Jackson's home.   Likely hers was the only one visible from the road.

Here's a possibility.  I'm not saying this is what happened, and I'm not saying that if it did it would make the burglar's actions acceptable.  I'm just saying there may be possibilities other than robbery, murder, and mayhem regarding his intent.

Riley discovered that his sister had overdosed on drugs and alcohol, was unconscious and unresponsive.  He drags her to his vehicle and takes off for the hospital.  Unfortunately he's in no condition to drive her to the hospital.  He fails to navigate the rural Oklahoma roads and manages to get the vehicle stuck in the mud.  After what seems to be a long time desperately trying unsuccessfully to free the vehicle, he gets out and looks around and notices one house within a quarter mile.  In his limited mental state he can only think that only if he can get to the house and they call for an ambulance his sister will live.  He runs to the house, combats the dog and pounds on the door.  No one answers.  He circles the house thinking maybe they're closer to the back.  He pounds on the door and hollers that Pat is going to die.  No one answers.  He paces.  He walks around the house again.  Finally he decides maybe no one is home and his only chance to save the life of his sister is to break into the house and use the phone to call for help.  He breaks out the patio door and surely enough his efforts result in the saving of his sister's life.

Whether that's the way it happened or not we'll not know.  The initial news story doesn't have the details we would need to know intent and motivation of the dead man.  Have you noticed that we seldom get follow up news stories in which they fill in the pieces that were missing from the first shocking release?

Whether the burglar was desperately trying to save his sister's life, or just intent on doing some drunken mayhem, the important item for Mrs. Jackson is that she sincerely thought her life was in danger.  She did what she knew to do to protect herself.  The burglar's intentions don't enter into whether Mrs. Jackson's choice was justified, but they should play a role in our deciding whether he was in fact a POS who deserved to die or just a stupidly frantic man who died because he made some really bad choices.

I wasn't there.      

Willow I actually had a similar chain of thought after reading that the sister was unconscious in the car.  The scenario you presented is very possible.  However I resolved that the guy was a POS period, and that I was not going to lose any sleep over this loss to the gene pool.  The only unknown was whether his bad choices were going to be a burden to this particular family....or whether he was going to be a burden to society as a whole.

Just my humble opinion.....

[PharmBoy]

I wasn't either.  If I had been, that poor woman would not have been near so scared for such a long time.  Sorry, but when someone throws the table through my back door I do not have the inclination, nor the time to psychoanalyze what this person's problems or intent might be.  Neither is it my job or responsibility to do so.  I do have neighbors, but I also live in the country with a sturdy outside table on my covered back porch.  The response time of the police to my house would probably be about the same time as to this poor woman's house.  If so, they would be way too late...JTL

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

As I think Willow's trying to say, ...

Thank you, Serk.  I guess I could've used a lot fewer words.    

Fully agree and certainly am not celebrating the loss of life.

PS - Willow, you called him a burglar 3 times while describing him saving his sister.   Just razzin ya.

[Willow]

And why do you folks insist on misspelling the name of the 40th president of the United States of America?   

He was a burglar.  That was intentional.   

Consider me properly razzed.      

[PharmBoy]

No, I do not celebrate the death of any person and never have.  I hope no one got that impression.  Anyone's life is important to others as well as to one's self.  All that I have been saying is that given the circumstances played out in this 911 tape, there was no way for anyone to know this person's problems or intent.  All one has to judge him on is his actions and to me all his actions were hostile and threatening which to my way of thinking left no alternative other than the ultimate outcome...JTL

[JimL]

No, I do not celebrate the death of any person and never have.  I hope no one got that impression.  Anyone's life is important to others as well as to one's self.  All that I have been saying is that given the circumstances played out in this 911 tape, there was no way for anyone to know this person's problems or intent.  All one has to judge him on is his actions and to me all his actions were hostile and threatening which to my way of thinking left no alternative other than the ultimate outcome...JTL

Jim those of us that know you realize that you would not celebrate the death of anyone, and would do anything to help your fellow neighbor.  We also know that if that guy had broken down your patio door, they would probably still be collecting small pieces of him for the next couple of weeks!  JTL