Bike dies while riding

[Sparky]

Would appreciate any ideas, TIA.

My 99 STD started shutting off while riding, just as if I had hit the kill switch. Sometimes it lasts for a few seconds, other times for several minutes. It happened two weeks ago while at the Steel Horse Rally. When it started, I took it to the Dealer there and left it. They replaced the Kill/Start assembly and I rode it for 70 miles home with no issues. Today, I was working our CVMA Poker Run to raise money for the DAV. I rode the 15 miles to the rally point on the Freeway, no issues. When I went to man one of the stops, I got five miles out and she died hard while riding at 45 MPH. I pulled over and cycled the Kill switch, cycled the kickstand and nothing. After five minutes it started fine. I headed back to the rally point and got a replacement to cover my stop. It died hard on me twice on the way home.

The Battery is new and shows correct voltages. I had the Dealer replace ALL fluids before I went to the Steel Horse Rally a few weeks ago. The Kill/Start switch is new. When it died the second time on the way home I looked at the Tach to see if any lights (Temp or Oil warning) were on and none were.

Could the Kick Stand safety switch be going bad? I soaked it in WD40 before I left to the Steel Horse Rally a few weeks ago, just in case..( On my way home today I cycled it and let it snap back up when trying to get the bike to revive while rolling to a stop and avoiding being killed while pulling over.)

Could the low oil switch be going bad? (New oil and also double checked the level, all good)

Any ideas??? (Could it be something else?)

Regards,
Sparky

[gordonv]

Just a FYI post.

My first IS had this happen about twice in a 5 month period, but instant off/on, nothing long term.

My next IS had wire issue when ridding in the rain (something very frequent here in the mountains), forget exactly, but I would loose my cluster. Dry up, and it was fine again.

I have the doc on the splice plug repair. What I would call the main wire harness middle connector. I tried a search and didn't fine much, you need the right words, maybe splice plug.

Email me if you (or anyone) want a copy of it.

[Mooskee]

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,114723.msg1158683.html#msg1158683

Here is a similar discussion.

[indybobm]

The first thing I would check is the red cap on the starter relay. There is one red wire that supplies power to the bike. If that has corroded, you can have an intermittent connection such as you describe. Eventually the heat tyat results from the corrosion (resistance) will melt the red connector.

[h13man]

Soaking with WD40 could make things worse as certain plastics/phenolics don't like it thus causing deterioration over time. How much time? Depends on the condition of said material before the application. Also the clutch switch is apart of the same circuit.

[f-Stop]

The best thing I've found for cleaning contacts is this stuff called DeoxIT.  (WD40 is actually a penetrant and is not good for your connectors.) 

Some suggestions you probably already know:
Maybe start tracing wires and connectors wherever aftermarket mods have been made. 
Another 'kill' switch on the Valk besides the kickstand switch is the lean over Stop Sensor. 
Also, iffy ground connections can cause fits. 

Good luck!

[pancho]

What indybobm said. Pull the cover off the starter relay and check the connector on the red wire in the red cap, see if it shows indications of overheating.










Since two terminals on the relay are hot, you can put a spade in the empty position next to the red wire and get your power from both, lightening the load on the terminal if that is your problem.

[indybobm]

Like I said earlier, that one red wire in the red cap supplies voltage to the entire bike, except for any supplemental relays that are powering things. One thing that can be done is to add another supply wire in the hole next to the red wire. That location is connected to the same power source at the starter relay. Splice that wire with the red wire and you have cut the current going through the original wire in half. 

[Sparky]

Still fighting the demon...
Had the Start/Kill switch assembly replaced with a new one. Ran flawless for 75 miles, and then started acting up again.
Had the Kick Stand sensor replaced with a new one.
Checked the fuse block (looked good), pulled the fuses and cleaned with dexoIt and reseated.
Pulled all connectors under both side panels and battery compartment and cleaned with dexoIt
Added a 6 AWG ground from the battery to the frame.
Have done three short rides over the last few weeks since above. On the third one it died for two seconds about 10 miles in.
Ordered as used ECM and will try that later this week upon arrival.
I am thinking about ordering a Bank Angle Sensor but would like to inspect mine first. Can anyone tell me where this is at on a 99 Standard please? TIA

[The emperor has no clothes]

Still fighting the demon...
Had the Start/Kill switch assembly replaced with a new one. Ran flawless for 75 miles, and then started acting up again.
Had the Kick Stand sensor replaced with a new one.
Checked the fuse block (looked good), pulled the fuses and cleaned with dexoIt and reseated.
Pulled all connectors under both side panels and battery compartment and cleaned with dexoIt
Added a 6 AWG ground from the battery to the frame.
Have done three short rides over the last few weeks since above. On the third one it died for two seconds about 10 miles in.
Ordered as used ECM and will try that later this week upon arrival.
I am thinking about ordering a Bank Angle Sensor but would like to inspect mine first. Can anyone tell me where this is at on a 99 Standard please? TIA

You did nearly everything EXCEPT what many suggested. Pull off the starter relay connector and check it for corrosion.
The bank angle sensor is behind the center cover. I doubt it went bad. It might not be installed correctly though.

[Sparky]

Thanks, I did pull the starter relay connector and cleaned the contacts and fuse. The bike starts fine, just likes to die while riding. Not like a fuel issue, just instantly dead while riding for a few seconds. Making me crazy..

[Willow]

ICM?

[Sparky]

Hey Willow,

LONG time no talk (my fault.) Anyway, I received a used ICM today (ebay $80) and will give that a try and let you know.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Sparky

[Shakie NC]

had that to happen to me , found it to be the kill switch, just passing some info. hope you get it figured out. RIDE SAFE.

[Sparky]

Still having the issue. Replaced Kill Switch, Kickstand Switch, and tonight I replaced the Bank Angle Sensor.  Its raining, so no test ride until tomorrow. (Hope the Bank Angle sensor fixes the problem)

I used electronic contact cleaner on any connectors I could unplug while I had her opened up to get to the Bank Angle Sensor.

I am trying to figure out which is Pin 11 on the ECM. The Clymer manual has this wire as Green with Red dots going into the ECM on Pin 11. This is the wire input to the ECM for whenever any of the safety items occur  (Kill, Kickstand, Bank angle Sensor, Neutral Switch.) Can any body identify the pinout on the ECM, or the actual color of the safety wire ?  Thanks in advance.

This is a picture (hopefully) of my connector and ECM.
https://imgur.com/a/9xDGman

[Avanti]

I believe Pin 11 green/red is neutral safety, pin 6 green/white is sided stand, pin 4 black/white is the bank angle and stop switch along with the three coils. You should check the Honda wiring schematic for better clarity.

[Sparky]

My Gremlim is alive and messing with me....

Replaced Kill Sw, Kickstand Sw, ECM, Bank Angle Sensor, and cleaned connectors. Even added a 6 Awg ground wire.

Test ride around town today and in a neighborhood tooling along in third on a smooth road, then died. Pulled over, stopped, cycled gears, turn off, then on and she started and got me home, all of eight miles total today.

Any ideas?

[Highbinder]

Sounds like vapor lock to me....I've seen this happen quite few times, cause was a pinched line on the fuel tank....bike would start up fine, run for a few miles die out, wait a few minutes start right up and do it again...not a fuel line pinch a vacuum line.  Worth checking out.

[dizzy]

That's a good suggestion, easy to kink the fuel tank vent when installing the tank.  When i read your original post the first thing came to my mind was failing pulse generators.  These are the small black components around the center belt pulley.  I usually think of them as the electro-magnetic equivalent of points.  This happened to GL1200's once in awhile with symptoms just like you described.  GL1500's have a similar ignition set up.   

[Jess from VA]

Not that pulling the tank to check the vent line is rocket science, but I have read of people closing the cap on a small zip tie to create a backup vent.  This is not a proper repair, but it might help narrow down your search for a gremlin.   

[John Schmidt]

Sounds like vapor lock to me....I've seen this happen quite few times, cause was a pinched line on the fuel tank....bike would start up fine, run for a few miles die out, wait a few minutes start right up and do it again...not a fuel line pinch a vacuum line.  Worth checking out.

I'm with Don on this. Can either be the vacuum line or possibly a fuel line from the petcock to the T is too long. That causes it to droop once it's all warmed up in that area and eventually causes a vapor lock, especially when low on fuel.

[SunshineNomad]

I experienced vapor lock with a 1200 I had. When it happened, it wasn’t immediate as the bike used the fuel left in the carbs and started to sputter before shutting off. It wouldn’t start until cooled down. The issue here sounds electrical which to me is magic.

[gordonv]

Stock fuel line has nothing in it, other than off the petcock and a T to the 2 banks of carbs. Fuel filter is in the tank. No quick disconnect either.

Anything else, then it's been tampered with.

[dizzy]

Intermittent problems can be a bugger.  Half the battle is figuring out if it's electrical or fuel related, and the devil is in the details.  Based on the parts he's trying, Sparky must feel it's electrical.  I'm wondering does ALL the electrical go dead when the bike dies?   Or does it just quit running but lights are on, starter turns the engine over, just won't run for a brief time so you're thinking it's losing spark?

[Sparky]

Yes, I am thinking electrical as she just dies cold while riding with a full tank with no modifications. The tank has not been taken off in a few years.

I spoke with the Dealer and they will check the pulse coils for me. I'll let y'all know what they find.

Really appreciate all the feedback.

Sparky

[dizzy]

Those pulse coils will test good unless your bike is failed.  When the problem is intermittent, you gotta ride the bike until it poops and then test.  I know this from personal experience.  Sometimes it's more efficient to just replace with known good and see if the problem goes away.

If your tank hasn't been off for a few years you'd be wise to check the fuel supply that is petcock, vacuum, vent and fuel lines. I'm not sure what you mean by 'dies cold'.    

 

[Sparky]

Took her to the Dealer yesterday and they tested the coil voltages and they were all near 3V (which is very good. Dealer said anything below 0.75 volts is a problem.) So Dizzy is right, not a coil problem. They did not charge me.  Thanks Cole at Heartland Honda in Springdale, Ark....

To answer a question, "dying cold" means I am riding along and she shuts down immediately, as if you hit the kill switch. The gauge light are still on.

Dealer also said that highly unlikely, but the Bank Angle Sensor Relay could cause this, but he has never seen that failure before.

The Dealer said that more likely is that I should check the mass of Green ground wires coming together under the tank. Anybody know where these are for a 1999 Std?   (A picture of it would be icing on the cake)  TIA

Regards,
Sparky

[Jess from VA]

There is a set of color, easier to read, (old), Rattlebars wiring diagrams for Valks floating around on here..... or, someone on here has them and can get them to you.  Supposed to be way easier to read than those in the factory Honda manual.

That's all I got.  I myself can't read wiring diagrams any better than Chinese. 

[dizzy]

Hey Sparky, I'm not sure you understood my previous post.  Those pulse gens could have tested perfectly fine for your dealer and still be bad...intermittently.  You won't see it with a voltage or (I use) resistance test until the bike is failing.  Not only that, you only have the few minutes until your bike restarts to test...once your bike restarts they will test fine again.  So unless your dealer did their VDC test while your bike was in failure mode it really tells you nothing.   

 

 

[gordonv]

The Dealer said that more likely is that I should check the mass of Green ground wires coming together under the tank. Anybody know where these are for a 1999 Std?   (A picture of it would be icing on the cake)  TIA

I think he's referring to the main wire harness connectors under the battery box. I've a copy of the rebuild, and the wire Rattlebar's diagrams if you want them, just send me an email asking for them (or anyone else too).

do a search, splice plug, see what you find.

[dizzy]

I just had the tank off my 98 touring a couple of weeks ago, and the only electrical was the main harness that runs along the right frame spar, and the connectors (including ground strap) for the ignition coils.  Wondering if the wires your dealer was referring to is the 6 wire ground kit (I'm not familiar with that) you mentioned in an earlier post.  If your dealer was suspicious of a bad ground wondering why they didn't follow that lead? 

[Mooskee]

There is a set of color, easier to read, (old), Rattlebars wiring diagrams for Valks floating around on here..... or, someone on here has them and can get them to you.  Supposed to be way easier to read than those in the factory Honda manual.

That's all I got.  I myself can't read wiring diagrams any better than Chinese. 

Jersey used to have them on his website. When he shut down, I put them on my website..
Go to www.valkyriecarbsandcustom.com and scroll down to the downloads section. You will find them there.

[Mooskee]

Also, I was reading a thread on Facebook where someone had a similar issue. It turned out to be a bad spot in the ignition switch. I suspect that is rare, but giving it a "jiggle" to test it cant hurt.

Good luck. This has to be frustrating for you.

Dave

[dizzy]

I like that Mooskee, 'the jiggle test'.  I like to do the 'handlebar test'.  Turn the handlebars back and forth full stop a few times.  Harness wires are always stressed where they have to pivot, like around steering heads.  If a wire is broke in the harness it's almost always there. 

[crow]

Been reading this post. Mine, for whatever reason, seems speed related when this happens. At 70 mph, regardless of gear/rpm, engine goes into Morse code mode.  2000 Interstate 84000 miles. At that time, applying WOT it clears up after a sec or two.  Gonna try some of these cures.  Let y'all know.  Thanks to all!,  Crowman

[Sparky]

Have been off the bike due to health, but now cleared to ride again. Put 15 miles on the bike today and had six occurrences. When she dies, i can start her back up immediately by turning off the key, then immediately back on (while still rolling) with either letting out the clutch, or pushing the starter button. I am going to try and remove the switch and see if I can clean the contacts. From other posts it seems you can get to the contacts without taking the switch apart.

This is getting old...

[RP#62]

It sounds electrical to me.  I say that because it evidently just quits, no stumbling or rough running like it does when you run out of gas and have to switch to reserve.

So, assuming it is electrical:
The ICM needs power and a ground to not turn off.

It gets a ground on pin 11 when from the neutral switch when the transmission is in neutral
It gets a ground on pin 6 when the side stand is up.  It has to have a ground on at least one of these to run.

Since this is happening when you're in gear, the ICM is depending solely on the ground from the side stand switch
A way to rule that circuit out is to take the connector off the neutral switch and jumper the bike side of the connector to ground.  If that fixes the problem, then there's a problem in the side stand circuit and you'll need to troubleshoot it to find the intermittent connection.  If you do this, be warned that it will be possible to take off with the side stand down, so you definitely don't want to leave it that way for any longer than necessary.

If that doesn't make any difference, look at the power side.
Power goes from the Start Relay through the Bank Angle Relay through the Kill Switch and splits, with one leg going to the Coils and the other to pin 4 on the ICM.  I don't think its the start relay because if it was, you'd also loose all your lights when it happens.

I noticed that the Bank Angle relay is about the only component in the circuit that you haven't replaced yet so it's a possibility.  Also, some have had problems with corrosion on that connector causing the same problems you're having.

If you take the connector off of the Bank Angle relay and put a jumper on the harness side of the connector from either of the white wires to the black wire with the light green stripe, you'll essentially be bypassing the Bank Angle relay and the Bank Angle sensor.     Be warned that when you're running it this way, if the bike goes down, the motor is not going to stop, so don't run it this way any longer than you need to.

If that fixes it, you'll need to replace the Bank Angle relay or repair the connector.  If it doesn't make any difference the only thing left is the kill switch, the connector it goes through in the headlight shell or the ICM connector.

Let us know what you find.

-RP

[baldo]

I don't know if the bike's mileage has been mentioned, but the start switch has shown to be a weakness on high mileage bikes. I had a few problems in the past, very similar to these. I replaced the ignition switch and have had no problems since. I don't recall if I lost all lights when it happened.

Other than a rusty frame, a rattley (?) rear bearing and a problematic clutch.

Intermittents really bite.

[TTG53#1717]

I added some S-biner clips to my keys so the full weight of a jangling key ring isn’t hanging from my switch.
Of course it’s important to remember to remove the key when you shut down.

[Mooskee]

Have you checked the ground cable that goes from battery negative to the back of the engine? They are known to fail and cause problems less. I had tomove mine to the footpeg on my tourer.

Also people were asking about the Rattlebars schematics and the same ones color-coded. They are public domain and I could not find them available consistently, so I posted them in the download section of my website. Www.valkyriecarbsandcustom.com. Just scroll down to "Downloads,"  and choose the ones you want.